Bright Spark
Posts: 327 
Location: Ont
Location: Ont
March 21st, 2007, 09:06 AM
What's it worth to have cleaner air to beathe.?
BMW Germany is making headway on a new hydrogen car. It has gone so far as to road worthy it, done crash tests, and it's proven slightly more efficient in energy production than gas.
I can buy a car for 30000$, pay for it for 5 years and be confident that someone out there knows how to fix it, and pumps are all over to fill it. Just for the sake of lessening air pollution, I now have the option of taking out a first mortgage AND a second on a vehicle that is really one of other prototypes, costs 90000$, will last me who knows how long , becomes a bomb when struck, and makes available one scientist-come-mechanic in Germany the only guy that can fix it, and I'd need to drive to the National Research Center I suppose to get fuel to drive it!!!
C'mon folks, let's be real here. OK, we have a pollution problem, but why burden the worker and small family for all these problems when the MFG and generating industry pumps out 30% compared to the worker's 2%. Isn't it obvious that the auto industry is getting on the pollution bandwagon by making a killing in hybrid sales, moral issues aside.Wouldn't it make more sense to get industry to lessen what they produce first to get the lead time and pollution count down to what is demanded today rather than to financially burden the guy who is trying to keep his budget down so he can start a family.
AndyF
What's it worth to have cleaner air to beathe.?
BMW Germany is making headway on a new hydrogen car. It has gone so far as to road worthy it, done crash tests, and it's proven slightly more efficient in energy production than gas.
I can buy a car for 30000$, pay for it for 5 years and be confident that someone out there knows how to fix it, and pumps are all over to fill it. Just for the sake of lessening air pollution, I now have the option of taking out a first mortgage AND a second on a vehicle that is really one of other prototypes, costs 90000$, will last me who knows how long , becomes a bomb when struck, and makes available one scientist-come-mechanic in Germany the only guy that can fix it, and I'd need to drive to the National Research Center I suppose to get fuel to drive it!!!
C'mon folks, let's be real here. OK, we have a pollution problem, but why burden the worker and small family for all these problems when the MFG and generating industry pumps out 30% compared to the worker's 2%. Isn't it obvious that the auto industry is getting on the pollution bandwagon by making a killing in hybrid sales, moral issues aside.Wouldn't it make more sense to get industry to lessen what they produce first to get the lead time and pollution count down to what is demanded today rather than to financially burden the guy who is trying to keep his budget down so he can start a family.
AndyF
Member
Posts: 52
March 22nd, 2007, 02:14 PM
Indeed there are some issues which need to be ironed out before MFG companies roll out. Buying a prototype - no big deal - but related aspects like refueling/repairs are big issues.
But what about environmental affects - I know all it leaves is H20 - Will thhat deplete O from atmosphere. What about associated emitted heat ?
Then comes up aviation - will you be able to drive War planes with given hydrogen, not to miss out tanks.
dunno
Indeed there are some issues which need to be ironed out before MFG companies roll out. Buying a prototype - no big deal - but related aspects like refueling/repairs are big issues.
But what about environmental affects - I know all it leaves is H20 - Will thhat deplete O from atmosphere. What about associated emitted heat ?
Then comes up aviation - will you be able to drive War planes with given hydrogen, not to miss out tanks.
dunno
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,699 
Location: California
Location: California
March 22nd, 2007, 02:25 PM
Aren't new things always expensive? I remember DVD players were really expensive when they first came out, now you can by a cheapie for less than $100. My parents first microwave was ridiculously expensive compared to what they cost today. I'm sure these cars will be the same.
Aren't new things always expensive? I remember DVD players were really expensive when they first came out, now you can by a cheapie for less than $100. My parents first microwave was ridiculously expensive compared to what they cost today. I'm sure these cars will be the same.
Member
Posts: 52
March 22nd, 2007, 02:32 PM
@ tracy
yup, thats one.
But apart from that - This hydrogen fuel - is gonna have quite a effect on a few things - primarily international politics. You wouldnt have to depend on middle east thugs for OIL. Developing countries are gonna benefit most. And is very likely to affect on USD . Since International Oil prices are done USD way.
Lets wait for shape of things to emerge apart from prices.
@ tracy
yup, thats one.
But apart from that - This hydrogen fuel - is gonna have quite a effect on a few things - primarily international politics. You wouldnt have to depend on middle east thugs for OIL. Developing countries are gonna benefit most. And is very likely to affect on USD . Since International Oil prices are done USD way.
Lets wait for shape of things to emerge apart from prices.
Bright Spark
Posts: 327
Location: Ont
Location: Ont
March 23rd, 2007, 07:40 AM
AndyF
Quoting allen_p
The oil industry will be something to contend with if they're destined to lose. The thing is it won't be done up front. They'll want the world to see a coopertaive face. Figure on their lobbying to fight everyone behind the scenes and any other dirty trick they can think of.
@ tracy
yup, thats one.
But apart from that - This hydrogen fuel - is gonna have quite a effect on a few things - primarily international politics. You wouldnt have to depend on middle east thugs for OIL. Developing countries are gonna benefit most. And is very likely to affect on USD . Since International Oil prices are done USD way.
Lets wait for shape of things to emerge apart from prices.
yup, thats one.
But apart from that - This hydrogen fuel - is gonna have quite a effect on a few things - primarily international politics. You wouldnt have to depend on middle east thugs for OIL. Developing countries are gonna benefit most. And is very likely to affect on USD . Since International Oil prices are done USD way.
Lets wait for shape of things to emerge apart from prices.
AndyF
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 3,428
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
March 23rd, 2007, 10:49 AM
Admittedly I haven't done much research on this, but I'm a long way from convinced hybrids or hydrogen fuel are the way to go with cars and I doubt I'll be buying one any time soon. Still too expensive for my taste, and only the dealers will be able to service them, at their usual usurious rates. The only good thing about burning hydrogen that I can see is that the exhaust is just water vapour. Against it are the facts that it's pretty explosive, hard to store--its molecules are so small they leak past most seals that'd hold air or natural gas--and the major source of it, as far as I can tell, is likely to be the oil & gas industry anyway, unless and until such times as we set up large power plants by the seashore, dissociate it from sea water, and feed it into a pipeline network. The distribution system for that is already mostly in place, in the existing natural gas distribution system (with upgraded seals), so hydrogen might show promise for things like space heating, but as a portable fuel, like what you need for vehicles, I'm deeply skeptical. And what would we use to fire those power plants? Coal? Oil? Natural gas? The dissociated hydrogen? I suspect we'd be into a zero sum game there. The plants would probably have to be nuclear, and that's a dangerous and unforgiving technology with serious PR problems. Unless we can get hydrogen fusion to work on a commercial scale...
Right now I'm inclined to think ethanol's a better bet as a motor fuel.
Admittedly I haven't done much research on this, but I'm a long way from convinced hybrids or hydrogen fuel are the way to go with cars and I doubt I'll be buying one any time soon. Still too expensive for my taste, and only the dealers will be able to service them, at their usual usurious rates. The only good thing about burning hydrogen that I can see is that the exhaust is just water vapour. Against it are the facts that it's pretty explosive, hard to store--its molecules are so small they leak past most seals that'd hold air or natural gas--and the major source of it, as far as I can tell, is likely to be the oil & gas industry anyway, unless and until such times as we set up large power plants by the seashore, dissociate it from sea water, and feed it into a pipeline network. The distribution system for that is already mostly in place, in the existing natural gas distribution system (with upgraded seals), so hydrogen might show promise for things like space heating, but as a portable fuel, like what you need for vehicles, I'm deeply skeptical. And what would we use to fire those power plants? Coal? Oil? Natural gas? The dissociated hydrogen? I suspect we'd be into a zero sum game there. The plants would probably have to be nuclear, and that's a dangerous and unforgiving technology with serious PR problems. Unless we can get hydrogen fusion to work on a commercial scale...
Right now I'm inclined to think ethanol's a better bet as a motor fuel.
March 23rd, 2007, 11:04 AM
I think the Honda FCX will come with a generator that can actually power your home as well, I think it was suppose to be released this year or next. As you said Dexter the hydrogen generator requires a natural gas hook-up. The BMW hydrogen platform is a partnership with Shell, and I think theirs is a normal combustion engine which can run on hydrogen as well? Not 100% on that.
Even ethanol will require fossil fuel use to harvest and extract and what not. Until we have a shift in power and energy production I think everything will be doomed to rely on some form of fossil fuel somewhere along the way. Unless we can develope fusion power...
I remeber hearing once that the total energy input over the life of a hybrid vehicle is actually higher than that of a Hummer. A Hummer is mostly steel which can be recycled and the life of the vehicle is longer as well. Also the costs to changing production in the factories for hybrids + RD costs or something. I can't remember which fella said that, could be BS. Still no reason for this fella to drive a Hummer
I think the Honda FCX will come with a generator that can actually power your home as well, I think it was suppose to be released this year or next. As you said Dexter the hydrogen generator requires a natural gas hook-up. The BMW hydrogen platform is a partnership with Shell, and I think theirs is a normal combustion engine which can run on hydrogen as well? Not 100% on that.
Even ethanol will require fossil fuel use to harvest and extract and what not. Until we have a shift in power and energy production I think everything will be doomed to rely on some form of fossil fuel somewhere along the way. Unless we can develope fusion power...
I remeber hearing once that the total energy input over the life of a hybrid vehicle is actually higher than that of a Hummer. A Hummer is mostly steel which can be recycled and the life of the vehicle is longer as well. Also the costs to changing production in the factories for hybrids + RD costs or something. I can't remember which fella said that, could be BS. Still no reason for this fella to drive a Hummer
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,891
March 23rd, 2007, 02:39 PM
I just bought a Toyota Camry Hybrid and so far I'm pretty happy with it. As far as I can see, the big differences are the electric motor/generator, and the continuously variable automatic transmission. The four cylinder gas engine has been with Toyota for many years along with most of the running gear. As I said on another thread, I was a little disappointed that there was no tachometer.....instead, you get a new gauge that tells you basically, how many miles to the gallon you are getting.
The cost difference over a non-hybrid seems to be about $5500.00. I've had a few Toyotas now and every one has given me great service.
Gas mileage?.....something around 55 mpg in town............maybe 65 on the highway. These numbers may be a little squint because I haven't yet burned a whole tank on the highway, or in town...but I'm happy.
I just bought a Toyota Camry Hybrid and so far I'm pretty happy with it. As far as I can see, the big differences are the electric motor/generator, and the continuously variable automatic transmission. The four cylinder gas engine has been with Toyota for many years along with most of the running gear. As I said on another thread, I was a little disappointed that there was no tachometer.....instead, you get a new gauge that tells you basically, how many miles to the gallon you are getting.
The cost difference over a non-hybrid seems to be about $5500.00. I've had a few Toyotas now and every one has given me great service.
Gas mileage?.....something around 55 mpg in town............maybe 65 on the highway. These numbers may be a little squint because I haven't yet burned a whole tank on the highway, or in town...but I'm happy.
Member
Posts: 125
Location: Ohau, Hawaii
Location: Ohau, Hawaii
July 1st, 2008, 12:55 AM
i would love to have a car at all (had to leave mine behind when i moved to HI) but not too long ago i saw on tv a commercial for hydrogen cars. so theres another option for environment friendly cars. of course they're new, so they will b expensive too
i would love to have a car at all (had to leave mine behind when i moved to HI) but not too long ago i saw on tv a commercial for hydrogen cars. so theres another option for environment friendly cars. of course they're new, so they will b expensive too
Les
Posts: 5,726
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
July 1st, 2008, 01:41 AM
Was trying to find in this messy filing system we have in this pc, a url to a place I think is in Vancouver that converts existing gasguzzlers to completely electric vehicles. And it is relatively cheap at $5000 or $6000. I would love to do that some day soon and switch lubes to synthetics and show my bare backside to those greedy leeches in the oil industry. If I manage to find the link I'll post it.
Of course I still think it'd be cool running about in a atomically generated steam powered vehicle.
Was trying to find in this messy filing system we have in this pc, a url to a place I think is in Vancouver that converts existing gasguzzlers to completely electric vehicles. And it is relatively cheap at $5000 or $6000. I would love to do that some day soon and switch lubes to synthetics and show my bare backside to those greedy leeches in the oil industry. If I manage to find the link I'll post it.
Of course I still think it'd be cool running about in a atomically generated steam powered vehicle.
Member
Posts: 196
July 1st, 2008, 03:14 AM
I should imagine that people complained about the cost of Model Ts when they first came out and where they would fill it up when they could get grass for the horse anywhere. Same with any technology, as it becomes more widespread and there is money to be made more people will get on the bandwagon so it lowers in price and gains in availability. The problem with hydrogen is it produces water vapour which I have read is more of a global warming agent than CO2, so how is that better than what we have now?
Hydrogen-fueled Cars Not Best Way To Cut Pollution, Greenhouse Gases And Oil Dependency
But if you are ready for a change...
Hydrogen Cars Vehicles and Infrastructure
Run Your Car on Water
I should imagine that people complained about the cost of Model Ts when they first came out and where they would fill it up when they could get grass for the horse anywhere. Same with any technology, as it becomes more widespread and there is money to be made more people will get on the bandwagon so it lowers in price and gains in availability. The problem with hydrogen is it produces water vapour which I have read is more of a global warming agent than CO2, so how is that better than what we have now?
Hydrogen-fueled Cars Not Best Way To Cut Pollution, Greenhouse Gases And Oil Dependency
But if you are ready for a change...
Hydrogen Cars Vehicles and Infrastructure
Run Your Car on Water
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,891
July 1st, 2008, 05:25 AM
I believe the topic was about hybrid cars. Hybrid cars run with an electric motor as well as an internal combustion engine. The electric motor helps out on hills or when passing and save a bit of gas. The hybrid is a good first step. The plug-in hybrid is even better. The ultimate would be all electric. We just have to get people thinking that they can get along without blistering acceleration and high speed.
I believe the topic was about hybrid cars. Hybrid cars run with an electric motor as well as an internal combustion engine. The electric motor helps out on hills or when passing and save a bit of gas. The hybrid is a good first step. The plug-in hybrid is even better. The ultimate would be all electric. We just have to get people thinking that they can get along without blistering acceleration and high speed.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
July 1st, 2008, 07:39 AM
Juan
Happy Canada Day to you and your's!
Now I don't know much about hybrid cars so right off the bat I'm inching my way onto the learning curve....
I have a concern that "California Solutions".... hydrogen powered cars, gasoline/ethanol powered cars, gas/electric cars....all the various combinations that might work fine in California where it never rains and certainly never snows....aren't up to the challenge of a Canadian winter.
We requir a mass of hot metal (or some burning fuel of some kind...) to keep our feet from freezing and condensation from freezing on the windshield. We will be faced with high winds that create enormous snow drifts....we will have sleet and freezing rain.... the variablility in Canadian climate....well is extreme at best... How well do you predict these hybrids and alternate fuel machines will fair when confronted with -40 and blowing snow?
Juan
Happy Canada Day to you and your's!
Now I don't know much about hybrid cars so right off the bat I'm inching my way onto the learning curve....
I have a concern that "California Solutions".... hydrogen powered cars, gasoline/ethanol powered cars, gas/electric cars....all the various combinations that might work fine in California where it never rains and certainly never snows....aren't up to the challenge of a Canadian winter.
We requir a mass of hot metal (or some burning fuel of some kind...) to keep our feet from freezing and condensation from freezing on the windshield. We will be faced with high winds that create enormous snow drifts....we will have sleet and freezing rain.... the variablility in Canadian climate....well is extreme at best... How well do you predict these hybrids and alternate fuel machines will fair when confronted with -40 and blowing snow?
A Mad Mulligan
Posts: 2,772
Videos: 3
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
Videos: 3
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
July 1st, 2008, 08:43 AM
So what would happen if we built 200 nuclear power plants across Canada, hell 2000 even and mandated that all cars built after 2019 are totally electric? As well plugging them in would be as easy as finding a 120V outlet. Electric engines have far less maintenance issues than a gas engine so they would be far cheaper to run all around.
Build an electric commuter that plugs in at home and at the office, which the office will gladly supply as part of your benefits. Power prices drop as users come on line with electricity and the air gets clean.
We already have had nuclear power for decades without any major incidents. We could investigate recycling spent fuel down to the nth degree and deal with the end waste in a trade off with the environment. Not to mention sell the technology to other countries and any surplus electricity to the US.
So what would happen if we built 200 nuclear power plants across Canada, hell 2000 even and mandated that all cars built after 2019 are totally electric? As well plugging them in would be as easy as finding a 120V outlet. Electric engines have far less maintenance issues than a gas engine so they would be far cheaper to run all around.
Build an electric commuter that plugs in at home and at the office, which the office will gladly supply as part of your benefits. Power prices drop as users come on line with electricity and the air gets clean.
We already have had nuclear power for decades without any major incidents. We could investigate recycling spent fuel down to the nth degree and deal with the end waste in a trade off with the environment. Not to mention sell the technology to other countries and any surplus electricity to the US.
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,891
July 1st, 2008, 10:03 AM
There is no doubt that our Winters will play havoc with these wonderfully high tech cars designed for California. We all know that at minus forty, the batteries in our current cars are no screaming hell and they just have to turn the car over to start it. Most batteries are not helped by low temperatures and some can be destroyed by Freezing. Assuming we eventually get to have electric cars that we can drive on the open highway, I don't know, maybe electric cars in the colder parts of Canada will always need some kind of hybrid (internal combustion) system to handle the low temperatures.
Quoting MikeyDB
Thank you Mikey, and to you.
Juan
Happy Canada Day to you and your's!
Now I don't know much about hybrid cars so right off the bat I'm inching my way onto the learning curve....
I have a concern that "California Solutions".... hydrogen powered cars, gasoline/ethanol powered cars, gas/electric cars....all the various combinations that might work fine in California where it never rains and certainly never snows....aren't up to the challenge of a Canadian winter.
We requir a mass of hot metal (or some burning fuel of some kind...) to keep our feet from freezing and condensation from freezing on the windshield. We will be faced with high winds that create enormous snow drifts....we will have sleet and freezing rain.... the variablility in Canadian climate....well is extreme at best... How well do you predict these hybrids and alternate fuel machines will fair when confronted with -40 and blowing snow?
Happy Canada Day to you and your's!
Now I don't know much about hybrid cars so right off the bat I'm inching my way onto the learning curve....
I have a concern that "California Solutions".... hydrogen powered cars, gasoline/ethanol powered cars, gas/electric cars....all the various combinations that might work fine in California where it never rains and certainly never snows....aren't up to the challenge of a Canadian winter.
We requir a mass of hot metal (or some burning fuel of some kind...) to keep our feet from freezing and condensation from freezing on the windshield. We will be faced with high winds that create enormous snow drifts....we will have sleet and freezing rain.... the variablility in Canadian climate....well is extreme at best... How well do you predict these hybrids and alternate fuel machines will fair when confronted with -40 and blowing snow?
There is no doubt that our Winters will play havoc with these wonderfully high tech cars designed for California. We all know that at minus forty, the batteries in our current cars are no screaming hell and they just have to turn the car over to start it. Most batteries are not helped by low temperatures and some can be destroyed by Freezing. Assuming we eventually get to have electric cars that we can drive on the open highway, I don't know, maybe electric cars in the colder parts of Canada will always need some kind of hybrid (internal combustion) system to handle the low temperatures.
