The system, spirituality and availability.

[CDNBear]

So I'm navigating the system. What a wonderful place. Twists, turns theme music from a circus. Who wouldn't want to try and get mental health help in Ontario these days...

Because of a recent issue, involving the law, a family friend is now going through the Youth Justice System. For those of you that don't know me, I'm a product of youth justice, before the YOA and YJA. But I have been a long time opponent of it, feeling that it was week and ineffectual. I stand corrected, now having been through 3 bail hearings trying to get a first time offender out of the custody of the State. After committing the crime of aggravated assault, causing bodily harm.

So in being proactive with is parents, we sought out treatment for what has been assessed as repressed anger issues, he is now externalizing. We have contacted every Provincial Mental health unit in the province.

How do you think we've fared?

Nil, zilch, nada, nothing!

Not a single mainstream mental health unit, program or therapist, will put him into a treatment program, until he has been sentenced.

Not only has this presented a problem with getting him back to his home, way up north, but it also presents us with the issue of enrolling him in school here. How can he be enrolled in school, where he is liable to come into conflict with other youths, knowing he now externalizes anger?

You can't. Not without great reservation and a touch of stupidity.

His court case isn't going to be dealt with over night, but the child requires schooling and mental health help. But there is none available for him, for months.

So in a last ditch effort, I contacted friends on a First Nation Council. I was fearful that I being Onondaga, and my young ward being Ojibwa, would present a problem if there were indeed any programs that could help him. I was pleasantly surprised to find, it didn't matter, and there are provincially recognized programs, that aren't hindered by the fact that he hasn't been sentenced. All available through a Mohawk reserve a good distance from my home.

The program addresses all aspects of anger, related to trauma, stress, abuse and so on. It's perfect for the young man I seek to heal. Hell, after speaking with the intake worker, it sounds like it might be more pleasurable for myself, as apposed to the long drive to Toronto for the trauma group I presently participate in.

The 13 week program, based on a Native spiritual healing circle, has one on one therapy, group sessions, healing circles, the construction of a medicine bundle and a spirit drum.

The part I find the strangest is, it's available in the Native community, to those that seek proactive, pre-sentencing hep help, but not in the non native community, to those that seek proactive pre-sentencing help. And the reason I find it strange is, both his lawyer and the intake worker stated, that this program will have a huge impact on his sentencing, it will also lead hopefully, to a diversion sentencing, as apposed to a criminal conviction.

 

[s_lone]

Sounds like a very complicated situation Bear...

Is there any activity or context where this person could externalize his anger in a positive and constructive way?

 

[CDNBear]

Sounds like a very complicated situation Bear...

It is that.

Is there any activity or context where this person could externalize his anger in a positive and constructive way?

Anger isn't positive. We're trying to help him let go of what makes him angry and treat the trauma that has been created by bullies.

In so doing, we should be able to put the kid back into the kid.

 

[s_lone]

It is that.

Anger isn't positive. We're trying to help him let go of what makes him angry and treat the trauma that has been created by bullies.

In so doing, we should be able to put the kid back into the kid.

I agree anger isn't positive. But sometimes when one spends so much energy in some form of activity, there's no more energy left for the anger.

But really I'm powerless to give you any good insight. I hope your efforts will be appreciated.

 

[wulfie68]

The part I find the strangest is, it's available in the Native community, to those that seek proactive, pre-sentencing hep help, but not in the non native community, to those that seek proactive pre-sentencing help. And the reason I find it strange is, both his lawyer and the intake worker stated, that this program will have a huge impact on his sentencing, it will also lead hopefully, to a diversion sentencing, as apposed to a criminal conviction.

This struck me too. Its great that your young friend can get help but what about other young people in similar circumstances.

I hope this works out and this young man can find his balance and move forward.

 

[CDNBear]

I agree anger isn't positive. But sometimes when one spends so much energy in some form of activity, there's no more energy left for the anger.

I get you now. The school in my area has no real sports dept. His sporting passions lie with Lacrosse and Football. Two sports frowned on by a lot of schools these days.

Which is why we pay $150.00 a month to bus my youngest to a school in another district, where he can take a culinary course and play football.

But really I'm powerless to give you any good insight. I hope your efforts will be appreciated.

By the lad and his family, you bet.

This struck me too. Its great that your young friend can get help but what about other young people in similar circumstances.

If they non Native, or Native and unaware of the programs? They're f!cked. From what I can gather.

I hope this works out and this young man can find his balance and move forward.

Thanx, that's all our hope'.

 

[Cliffy]

A program, as you described it, should be available across the country. It would be a lot cheaper than the prison system and much more effective.

 

[karrie]

The part I find the strangest is, it's available in the Native community, to those that seek proactive, pre-sentencing hep help, but not in the non native community, to those that seek proactive pre-sentencing help. And the reason I find it strange is, both his lawyer and the intake worker stated, that this program will have a huge impact on his sentencing, it will also lead hopefully, to a diversion sentencing, as apposed to a criminal conviction.

I can't help but have a jaded little part of me Bear that says exactly what I said to you on another forum... if he were white, and you were white, he wouldn't need outside counseling while he waited for his hearing, because no one would have posted the surety for him that you did. He would get whatever counseling they were willing to give him in the young offender centre (that is, if a white kid ever ended up locked up on a first offense at all, which again jaded a bit here this week, I feel is unlikely).

 

[CDNBear]

A program, as you described it, should be available across the country. It would be a lot cheaper than the prison system and much more effective.

So you'd think. But having literally called just about everybody, this is where I am now.

I can't help but have a jaded little part of me Bear that says exactly what I said to you on another forum... if he were white, and you were white, he wouldn't need outside counseling while he waited for his hearing, because no one would have posted the surety for him that you did.

At this point in time Karrie and you know how hard this is for me to say, if he was white, and I was white, he wouldn't have had to have my house put on the line to get bail.

He would get whatever counseling they were willing to give him in the young offender centre (that is, if a white kid ever ended up locked up on a first offense at all, which again jaded a bit here this week, I feel is unlikely).

True enough.

In the month he was locked up, he got to see the Elders once, had a court ordered mental health assessment, and there is no counseling available, until an inmate is sentenced.

This system is flawed beyond belief.

You've known me long enough, to know I am a law and order kinda guy. So you know how hard it was for me to watch the system railroad, and then leave behind a kid.

In that other forum, when I said my faith in the system was gone. I wasn't kidding. It's gone. I long since passed jaded. I have nothing left but contempt. Now I'm stuck between dying to wear war paint to court, growing a mohawk and putting on my Bear claw necklace. I am literally in that war like state. As am sure you may have noticed. lol.

 

[Cliffy]

I can't help but have a jaded little part of me Bear that says exactly what I said to you on another forum... if he were white, and you were white, he wouldn't need outside counseling while he waited for his hearing, because no one would have posted the surety for him that you did. He would get whatever counseling they were willing to give him in the young offender centre (that is, if a white kid ever ended up locked up on a first offense at all, which again jaded a bit here this week, I feel is unlikely).

Yes, judging by the percentage of aboriginal inmates in the prison population, there is no doubt that there is a very strong bias against aboriginals in our so called "justice" system. I just received some very interesting information that points to reasons far beyond racial prejudice though.

 

[CDNBear]

Yes, judging by the percentage of aboriginal inmates in the prison population, there is no doubt that there is a very strong bias against aboriginals in our so called "justice" system.

I recounted this years ago here, but during the trial of a relative of mine, many years ago, for assault with a weapon, we were literally told, our testimony on his behalf, was worthless, because all us "injuns" stuck together.

It didn't matter that out of the dozen Native and non Native witnesses, the only one that claimed the assault was unprovoked, was the victim.

It was the victims knife, it was never removed from the victims hand. It was however used to scalp him, while still in his hand. After his elbow was snapped by the Ex Green Beret, Vietnam Vet.

He was sentenced to 5 years, severed all 5. Whereabouts now, unknown.

I just received some very interesting information that points to reasons far beyond racial prejudice though.

Please share.

 

[Cliffy]

Here is a beginning: excerpts from ?DAKOTA PROCLAMATION? by MEREDITH QUINN: Blog MySpace | de Billy Joe Green
MEREDITH QUINN?S 45 years of research UNCOVERS THE TRUTH: Blog MySpace | de Billy Joe Green

This is just an intro to the man's work. I have many long documents, some pertain to using Indian Law in court to supersede Maritime or Common law. Check your PM.

 

[Praxius]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the big deal that help won't be assigned until after sentencing?

Sentencing, I am assuming, means that he obviously committed some sort of crime, needs to be tried for that crime and sentenced appropriately in order to determine what sort of help he needs...... how can one try and seek some sort of help or a certain type of counseling for something he did, if he hasn't yet been proven to have done anything wrong or not and the process is still on-going?

Don't get me wrong, I never once agreed with the Youth Justice system's existence, and a couple of years back, I lost faith in the legal system as well (due to getting ganked by a couple of drunk idiots, one getting caught by the cops when they ran away when they showed up, confessed and gave out the names of all the others, but then somehow all the charges were dropped because "There wasn't enough evidence".... but I ended up doing more damaged to them then they did to me, so I guess that's all the justice I'll ever get)..... but seeking help to correct an individual's wrong's before going through the process of determining what wrong they did kind of sounds backwards. I think it's a good idea to seek help for a problem such as you described and I think it's great that the native community seems to have programs for such cases where the federal system seems to have squat-sh*t-all (hence why I seem to continually see minors come back out of the system either the same as when they went in, or worse) but in the current legal system we have in place today, I always thought the process was to first figured out what wrong was done and then determine what was needed to correct the problem so that it doesn't happen again.

 

[Cliffy]

The injustice system is bad enough but how it is used against the aboriginal people is appalling. What I find even more appalling is the complete indifference of most Canadians.

 

[CDNBear]

Here is a beginning: excerpts from ?DAKOTA PROCLAMATION? by MEREDITH QUINN: Blog MySpace | de Billy Joe Green
MEREDITH QUINN?S 45 years of research UNCOVERS THE TRUTH: Blog MySpace | de Billy Joe Green

This is just an intro to the man's work. I have many long documents, some pertain to using Indian Law in court to supersede Maritime or Common law. Check your PM.

I have them on pdf, but thanx Cliffy, I appreciate the thought.

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the big deal that help won't be assigned until after sentencing?

Because, as you go through the system, the courts look at what you're doing to address the problem. They demand proactive engagement, in a system that has none available.

After his incarceration, he was assessed by a shrink, where it was acknowledged he has anger issues stemming from years of bullying.

The court took that single part, out of a glowing report of a kid that is polite and respectful of everyone, and that is all that matters to them. He is angry and now externalizing that anger.

Sentencing, I am assuming, means that he obviously committed some sort of crime, needs to be tried for that crime and sentenced appropriately in order to determine what sort of help he needs......

The crime itself is derived by bullying. He being the victim, that finally lashed out at the bully. In an extremely violent way.

how can one try and seek some sort of help or a certain type of counseling for something he did, if he hasn't yet been proven to have done anything wrong or not and the process is still on-going?

Ummm, it was witnessed by no less then 12 peers, 1 Army Officer and a civilian instructor.

but seeking help to correct an individual's wrong's before going through the process of determining what wrong they did kind of sounds backwards.

So you'd think, but the court set forth the assessment, then made his angry issues part of denying his bail, two times, before he was granted bail, after a great deal of legal hoop jumping.

(hence why I seem to continually see minors come back out of the system either the same as when they went in, or worse)

That's the point of the diversion program for youth. But you can't do it, unless you can access assistance, before or during trial. Which makes the diversion program useless.

but in the current legal system we have in place today, I always thought the process was to first figured out what wrong was done and then determine what was needed to correct the problem so that it doesn't happen again.

Not always.

 

[karrie]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the big deal that help won't be assigned until after sentencing?

Sentencing, I am assuming, means that he obviously committed some sort of crime, needs to be tried for that crime and sentenced appropriately in order to determine what sort of help he needs...... how can one try and seek some sort of help or a certain type of counseling for something he did, if he hasn't yet been proven to have done anything wrong or not and the process is still on-going?

Bear stated what the boy's crime was, and it sounds like the boy is not hiding or denying it, but rather, seeking help. To tie his hands and make him wait until the courts work through agreeing with the kid that he did it, makes no sense.

 

[CDNBear]

Bear stated what the boy's crime was, and it sounds like the boy is not hiding or denying it, but rather, seeking help. To tie his hands and make him wait until the courts work through agreeing with the kid that he did it, makes no sense.

The most messed up part is, the court made the demand that he seek help, as part of his bail conditions.

If by Thursday, he can not show that he has actively begun therapy, he will be in breach of his bail conditions.

As his bail additional conditions (Apart from sections 763 and 764 of the Criminal Code) state...

* To have been seen by a Family Practitioner, for the purposes of seeking therapy for anger related issues.
* To have been enrolled in or on the intake list of a Provincially recognised mental health program, in relation to anger issues.

The first one, done, the second done, thanx to his ethnicity.

If he wasn't Native, he'd be in breach of his bail conditions at his pretrial.

Way to set people up to fail.

 

[Praxius]

I think my confusion laid where it was said that sentencing hasn't occurred yet, so it sounded to me that the court process was still on-going.

I can relate to what this kid has been going through, as I can't remember a "Normal" day in school where I wasn't bullied or picked on, etc.... and besides Grades 5 and 6 where I went through suicidal thoughts, there were also times where I contemplated not only lashing out and seriously harming a few of the wanks making my life a hell, but possibly doing worse..... the students, the school, the teachers..... nobody did anything, even when I sucked up my embarrassment of trying to go to the principle to get things dealt with so I could have a somewhat normal school life.... heck I even tried a couple of times to transfer to another school, but that didn't happen.

It's a sh*tty place to be in when you feel nobody can help you and you have to take matters into your own hands the only way you know how...... what's worse is that while kids such as the one you described have to go through all this Legal BS and now have to find help, the bullies and asshats who caused all this in the first place almost always get off scott free and never have to go through the same crap.

And at the same time, these asshats who put this kid in the situation he's in now are usually protected by the same system we're complaining about now, get a slap on the wrist, released and allowed to do it all over again.

That's the point of the diversion program for youth. But you can't do it, unless you can access assistance, before or during trial. Which makes the diversion program useless.

Ah.... not to sound politically incorrect, but that's just retarded.

 

[CDNBear]

I can relate to what this kid has been going through, as I can't remember a "Normal" day in school where I wasn't bullied or picked on, etc.... and besides Grades 5 and 6 where I went through suicidal thoughts, there were also times where I contemplated not only lashing out and seriously harming a few of the wanks making my life a hell, but possibly doing worse..... the students, the school, the teachers..... nobody did anything, even when I sucked up my embarrassment of trying to go to the principle to get things dealt with so I could have a somewhat normal school life.... heck I even tried a couple of times to transfer to another school, but that didn't happen.

My hats off to you for holding it together bud.

It's a sh*tty place to be in when you feel nobody can help you and you have to take matters into your own hands the only way you know how...... what's worse is that while kids such as the one you described have to go through all this Legal BS and now have to find help, the bullies and asshats who caused all this in the first place almost always get off scott free and never have to go through the same crap.

And at the same time, these asshats who put this kid in the situation he's in now are usually protected by the same system we're complaining about now, get a slap on the wrist, released and allowed to do it all over again.

Yep, he can't contact the kid, go near him, when they end up back in the same school, he can't communicate with the kid...

But none of those restrictions are on the bully.

One of the things that I found sad, was when we talked to my little buddy here about going to authorities at school. He told us, it would always be his word against his bully and his friends, and the school always went with the greater number of "witnesses" as apposed to the word of the single victim.

Bullies aren't stupid, they don't do all their physical deeds in front of a crowd like in the movies. The verbal stuff is usually public, because it gets big laughs. But then they say "I was only kidding" "It was just a joke".

Ah.... not to sound politically incorrect, but that's just retarded.

How do you think I feel, jumping through hoops at my age and condition?

Would it surprise anyone that his bully isn't Native?

 

[Praxius]

My hats off to you for holding it together bud.

Thanks but to be honest.... it's all still there, bottled up inside and everytime I think back at those days of my youth, I can feel my jaw clenching and just wanting to put a couple of holes in a wall or someone's head...... but I've continually processed it in my head that if I do have to let it all out someday, let it out on something or someone that truly..... and I mean truly deserves it..... such as self defence or to save a life, etc...... because when it's released, it ain't going to be pretty, nor will the person be pretty when it's over with.

I actually was restraining myself when I was jumped, because at the time my ex was with me and I knew that if something happened to me, nobody would be there to protect her, so I kept the drunks talking and talking to delay them until the police arrived that my ex was trying to get via her cell phone to 911..... I took a couple of thumps, got a bruised ear, but the main guy who started it all got my foot in his face at one time and drove his teeth through his lip.... the only time I actually decided to let some of that anger out, the only time I decided to take some swings to make contact and I hit him exactly where I wanted to and drove the point home enough that they backed off for a little while longer.

If my ex wasn't there, I can't honestly say what would have happened, except that I know that guy they arrested wouldn't have been the only one being hauled off to jail that night.

Yep, he can't contact the kid, go near him, when they end up back in the same school, he can't communicate with the kid...

But none of those restrictions are on the bully.

One of the things that I found sad, was when we talked to my little buddy here about going to authorities at school. He told us, it would always be his word against his bully and his friends, and the school always went with the greater number of "witnesses" as apposed to the word of the single victim.

Sounds about right, and my dad was a teacher at the school.... even that didn't have much sway on what they could do about the situation...... and the worst part about the situation you're talking about, is while that kid is restricted in all those things, the bullies aren't, they can continue their crap, probably even worse then before, and if he responds in anyway, he get's punished further.

Is there any way to get him transferred to another school at least?

Bullies aren't stupid, they don't do all their physical deeds in front of a crowd like in the movies. The verbal stuff is usually public, because it gets big laughs. But then they say "I was only kidding" "It was just a joke".

Exactly.... the idiots in my school knew how far they could push until a response was about to occur, then they'd say they were just kidding around and to lighten up..... so if I did respond with a metal school chair to their skull, I'd be at fault because I can't take a joke.

How do you think I feel, jumping through hoops at my age and condition?

Can't say I know how old you are, never asked as far as I can recall.

Would it surprise anyone that his bully isn't Native?

Not really.... most aren't.

Although, I do remember a kid in school who was from the local reserve who purposed tried to pick fights with everybody he could because he knew as soon as someone retaliated against him, he'd play the innocent, get a pile of his friends, family and neighbors to come after them and they'd get the living tar beaten out of them.... which I almost saw happen one day with one of my semi-friends whom he tried to pick a fight with. My friend gave him a shove away and told him to go fk off..... and the next day his older sister in our grade came after him and got right into his face, telling him that "You fk with one of us, you fk with all of us, and you're going to get yours pretty soon."

I considered myself on good terms with the sister and I spoke to her and told her exactly what happened and what her brother was doing..... in fact he tried it with me one time. We were in grade nine and her brother was in grade 7, so he was completely harmless and couldn't beat melting butter..... but he'd punch you and shove you around asking if you wanted to fight..... without any provocation..... he just wanted to get someone to whack him so he could tell and get a gang after the person and watch them get their ass kicked pretty badly.

I was getting a drink at the fountain at lunch when he came up to me and said "Hey you, let's fight...." I rolled my eyes and said "Sure whatever there buddy." Then he fk'n went nuts and started throwing punches into my stomach.

I looked down at him while he was doing this and became a bit annoyed, so I grabbed his hands and told the lil sh*t to go fk off somewhere I can't be bothered with his crap.

That was that.

Anyways, after I explained to his sister what he was trying to do, his antics mysterious stopped and he wasn't picking fights anymore.