Islam – The enemy within itself-

[Goober]

Islam – The enemy within- are the extremists that cause many moderates to cower as they are threatened with retaliation from within their community– this occurs not only in their country of origin but follows to countries such as Canada – Threats of physical violence and worse are common – along with the major threat that they will be cut off, shunned by the community that is an integral part of their daily life – The minority Hard Liners have considerable influence that is disproportionate to their numbers.

This causes moderates to look away or ignore or pretend that it is nothing and by doing so they protect these radicals – To place their religion above others that have or do not have the same beliefs – Islam has yet to go thru a reformation that Christianity did – To understand that the Separation of Church and State guarantees everyone freedom of expression and more – to believe or not – to practice their religion without fear of retribution from the State or individuals –

2nd and 3rd generation Muslims and other minorities are still a large part that does not fit the average income levels that other immigrants have achieved over the same time – Why is that - ?

Why do we tolerate it – Why should we tolerate it – Most Canadians would agree that our Politicians are scared to upset minorities and the seats that can go either way in an election – Witness the Tamil Tigers -

After the Madrid bombing an Imam in France praised the attackers –He was deported in 6 weeks – not 6 or 15 years – 6 weeks – 42 days - Not so in Canada – we always try to meet on the commonalties that we share – yet with any radical – be they Christian or Muslim that is not possible.

If you come to this country as an immigrant or refugee and bring the hate with you and endorse it openly – Then back you go –
But our immigration system is controlled not by the Govt but by minorities and the Govt is terrified of changing it.

The same applies to any Religious Fanatic – or non religious as well. Back you go.

Point – Do not try to read any racism in my post – as that is pure BS -

The above message has been approved by Goober.

 

[Machjo]

I'd had close family ties to Islam before, and I will say that fanaticism is a serious problem in Islam even within Canada's borders today.

I'm well aware that there are some within the Muslim community who fear the fanatics, or even those who do not believe in Islam but pretend to out of fear. This is indeed a very serious problem in Canada, or at least it was a few years ago when I had this intimate inside look within Islam.

However, there is another side too. Some well-intentioned Muslims really are not aware of this problem. To take an example, I never realised just how racist Canada was until I'd joined the infantry! Likewise, a Muslim who[d never met another Muslim who'd left Islam, or who may have married a non-Muslim man, etc. might not even be aware of how much fanaticism may have been directed towards those persons.

Also, since this can involve intra-familial relations, it's not so easy to punish the perpetrators without hurting the victims in the process.

I'm not saying I have an answer. Islamophobia is certainly not the answer and that can only make things worse. However, turning a blind eye isn't the answer either.

One possible answer I could see would be compulsory integrated study of the world's religions in school so as to give students a more level-headed view of Islam as a religion of peace, love, mercy, and not a religion of hate. Many say religion belongs in teh home. But what happens when parents are teaching dangerous doctrines? I'd rather my child learn about the Bible, the Qur'an, etc. in school than at the hands of a fanatic. Muslim and Christian parents would likely resist such a course. But for the good of the country it may be necessary. And besides, opposition to such a course ought to raise eyebrows in its own right. Why woudl you not want your child to learn about the similarities between religions, and their basic spiritual teachings concerning peace, love, brotherhood?

That, honestly, is the only first step to a solution that I could see, but it woudl not be politically easy to implement.

 

[L Gilbert]

Christianity has its own wingnuts, too...... John Hagee, Pat Robertson, etc. sound familiar?

 

[petros]

You can't leave out the homo meth-head yet anti-gay Ted Haggard. If his parishioner never suspected that he was gay and taking them for a ride, I feel sorry for all 40 freakin' thousand in Colorado alone. Their souls are doomed.

 

[Goober]

Christianity has its own wingnuts, too...... John Hagee, Pat Robertson, etc. sound familiar?

I mentioned any religious fanatic or fanatic without religion-

 

[Goober]

You can't leave out the homo meth-head yet anti-gay Ted Haggard. If his parishioner never suspected that he was gay and taking them for a ride, I feel sorry for all 40 freakin' thousand in Colorado alone. Their souls are doomed.

Petros – As mentioned any fanatic - a holder of extreme or irrational enthusiasms or beliefs, especially in religion or politics - extreme -- uncompromising – Guess that covers most of them-

 

[L Gilbert]

I mentioned any religious fanatic or fanatic without religion-

Yes, you did. I was addressing Machjo's post, though.

 

[Machjo]

Christianity has its own wingnuts, too...... John Hagee, Pat Robertson, etc. sound familiar?

You may be right. However, only those who can get a real peak on the inside can really know. I've had plenty of Christian friends and family members, and none of them have proven dangerous in any way. This is not to say they don't exist, but simply that I've never seen them within my circle.

As for Islam, I've had people tell me secretly that they weren't Muslim but could not let the general community know. I've had one family member threatened for choosing to marry a non-Muslim. This was in Victoria BC, and they literally had to move away for her safety. Sure someone could have called the police, but when family is involved, many complex emotions get in the way, something many lawmakers overlook when creating laws concerning family relations.

I'd seen Muslims on a subway inMontreal pull up their veils just as they were getting close to home.

So I'm not saying this kind of thing doesn't exist in the Christian Faith but just that it's never hit me personally. THough I do remember one case of a man from a missionary Christian family married to a missionary Christian, and who was a missionary Christian himself before converting to a new religion. I wasn't on the inside and so don't know the details of the story, but supposedly it was creating quite the strain on the marriage. And I do remember one woman in Victoria who was pretending to be a Christian so as to not lose her friends and be shunned. But again, these are asilated incidents and didn't touch my own personal life particularly hard.

 

[Goober]

I'd had close family ties to Islam before, and I will say that fanaticism is a serious problem in Islam even within Canada's borders today.

I'm well aware that there are some within the Muslim community who fear the fanatics, or even those who do not believe in Islam but pretend to out of fear. This is indeed a very serious problem in Canada, or at least it was a few years ago when I had this intimate inside look within Islam.

However, there is another side too. Some well-intentioned Muslims really are not aware of this problem. To take an example, I never realised just how racist Canada was until I'd joined the infantry! Likewise, a Muslim who[d never met another Muslim who'd left Islam, or who may have married a non-Muslim man, etc. might not even be aware of how much fanaticism may have been directed towards those persons.

Also, since this can involve intra-familial relations, it's not so easy to punish the perpetrators without hurting the victims in the process.

I'm not saying I have an answer. Islamophobia is certainly not the answer and that can only make things worse. However, turning a blind eye isn't the answer either.

One possible answer I could see would be compulsory integrated study of the world's religions in school so as to give students a more level-headed view of Islam as a religion of peace, love, mercy, and not a religion of hate. Many say religion belongs in teh home. But what happens when parents are teaching dangerous doctrines? I'd rather my child learn about the Bible, the Qur'an, etc. in school than at the hands of a fanatic. Muslim and Christian parents would likely resist such a course. But for the good of the country it may be necessary. And besides, opposition to such a course ought to raise eyebrows in its own right. Why woudl you not want your child to learn about the similarities between religions, and their basic spiritual teachings concerning peace, love, brotherhood?

That, honestly, is the only first step to a solution that I could see, but it woudl not be politically easy to implement.

Machjo
Could you expand upon your statement -- To take an example, I never realised just how racist Canada was until I'd joined the infantry!

 

[Machjo]

Machjo
Could you expand upon your statement -- To take an example, I never realised just how racist Canada was until I'd joined the infantry!

I'm not saying I was not aware of racism before joining the infantry, but simply of how extreme it really was. Once in the infantry, I'd met one man with 'skinhead' tattooed onto his knuckes and neck, along with a Neo-Nazi flag on one arm and a Union Jack on the other. How he got into the military beats me. Another had joined the infantry specifically to gain training so that he could then train the Freemen after getting out. And the words 'nigger', 'Paki', 'Chink', 'Jap', 'skwaw', 'Chinook', etc. were common fare within the platoon, only sanitized when an outsider was present. One instructer was collecting historical Nazi paraphernalia. Now as for him, I can accept that that in and of itself is not necessarily racist, and in his defence, I'll say he's one of the ones I'd never heard such words from. But still, within the context of such a social environment, it would still raise eyebrows.

So now when I hear a young punk say he wants to join the army so he can kill himself an Arab (little do they know Afghans are not Arabs), after my experience in the military, I believe he may very well mean it.

 

[Machjo]

I should point out though that this is years ago. Who knows, it may have been cleaned up since. But, in wartime, fewer people are wiling to join the military, thus increasing the risk of standards going down, not up.

 

[Machjo]

This, by the way, I'm very wary of anything other than a UN-led force abroad. Remember the shooting in Somalia? If that's the kind of people we have within our ranks abroad, it woudl make sense to ensure some kind of international checks and balances.

I'm not saying all soldiers are like this, and who knows, maybe I was in a bad batch, yet even in my batch there were a few decent exceptions. I'm just saying though that they're common enough and they do exist. It does make sence though that such a personality woudl natrually be attracted to the military too.

 

[L Gilbert]

Wacko's aplenty. Tagging them with "Islamic", "Christian", etc. is only focusing on part of what makes them wacko.

 

[Machjo]

Wacko's aplenty. Tagging them with "Islamic", "Christian", etc. is only focusing on part of what makes them wacko.

You do have a point. When I was in the military, most of the ones i know were not religious at all. They were just plain nationalists, albeit of an extreme kind.

 

[Machjo]

Scary thing is, though, think of the people we send to make peace in Afghanistan. Hearts and minds anyone? No, no, I didn't mean to shoot and eat, but to convert to our sympathies.

 

[Unforgiven]

What worries me more than some shrieking kook is groups connected by religion voting in blocks and thus influencing governmental policy.

 

[Machjo]

What worries me more than some shrieking kook is groups connected by religion voting in blocks and thus influencing governmental policy.

I wouldn't worry too much about them. Owing to secret ballots, it would be hard to intimidate members into voting as a block. Add to that that different kinds of kooks are at odds. For exampls, so called Christian kooks are not likely to collaborate very well with so called Muslim kooks.

 

[Unforgiven]

I wouldn't worry too much about them. Owing to secret ballots, it would be hard to intimidate members into voting as a block. Add to that that different kinds of kooks are at odds. For exampls, so called Christian kooks are not likely to collaborate very well with so called Muslim kooks.

It's not the kooks it's moderates that swing a little too much to the conservative and elect a large number of politicians who in turn begin to create policy that goes against minorities one at a time.

 

[Machjo]

It's not the kooks it's moderates that swing a little too much to the conservative and elect a large number of politicians who in turn begin to create policy that goes against minorities one at a time.

The only solution I could see to that is education.

 

[Goober]

This, by the way, I'm very wary of anything other than a UN-led force abroad. Remember the shooting in Somalia? If that's the kind of people we have within our ranks abroad, it woudl make sense to ensure some kind of international checks and balances.

I'm not saying all soldiers are like this, and who knows, maybe I was in a bad batch, yet even in my batch there were a few decent exceptions. I'm just saying though that they're common enough and they do exist. It does make sence though that such a personality woudl natrually be attracted to the military too.

Machjo

When did you serve - what Infantry unit -