Canadian Muslims... Please

[bluedog]

I just watched Yusuf Islam and his journey from being Cat Stevens, singer/songwriter of the 70s/80's. He shared that he a Muslim believes that Hebrew and Christian peoples- as well as Muslims honor the same God, Allah. Given.
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My Question to any who have studied the Qumran PERSONALLY- does it admit that Jesus was resurrected as the son of God, after three days in the grave?
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Mohammad started his spiritual journey in 1400. He was a devout man that hated and wrenched at the hypocrisy of the existing world believers. Given.

He does not call himself savior, but prophet of God. I have read the QUMRAN calls Jesus "Messiah" or Savior. If the translations are correct.

If it is only the ire of Mohammad that lead to the reformation of his own Spirit. If only politics and hypocrisy were the reason for his search. How much different is it than when Christ threw the Jewish Moneytakers from the temple... a holy place making it a mockery to God. Afterall He then started His ministry to INCLUDE gentiles as a result offering a new COVENANT.

Could it be possible, just possible, that the politics and hypocrisy that enflamed Mohammad, accounted for the Muslim stand later, against the Christian Crusades? Also, we must never forget how many gentiles died for the Hebrew state of Isreal being founded.

Is it all the politics of man, seeking his own selfullness, ignoring covenant after covenant with God, which seeks to give everyone in this world pause to introspection, humility and brotherhood? In the name of the same God. Are we ALL just turning over the tables in the Holyland. For our own visions?

Or is all this human failure an omniscient plan of the same God we all serve?

Let us all live the Beatitudes, which we hold dearly in common. In our little part of the world. As we then change ourselves, God will change the world, to His Will be Done.

 

[Machjo]

You may have read the Qumran, but have you read the Qur'an?

As for teh question of the crucifixion of Christ, there are farious ideas on that. One Muslim scholar I'd read once suggested that while the Bible was referring to the person and body of Christ when it said he was crucified, the Wur'an was making a distinction between the body and spirit of Christ, suggesting that while the Jews thought they wre killing Jesus, they were killing only a likeness of him (i.e. his physical body) but that his body was taken to heaven.

We find something similar in the Gospels, when John the Baptist denies being the return of Elijah who should come before the Lord, but later Jesus confirms that John the Baptist was Elijah. The explanation for this among some Christians is taht in the first, John the Baptist understood that the Pharisees were asking about his person, which of course was born of another woman and so was not Elijah. Jesuse was referring to his spriti, which came from the same Divine source, and so was Elijah.

And yes, the Qur'an does refer to Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[Machjo]

In fact, the Qur'an directs the Muslims to read the Torah and the Gospels.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

There is a definite difference between how Christians regard Christ and how Muslims regard him. To Christians, Jesus was a Messiah, he was Son of God and hence a part of God.

To Muslims, Jesus is only a Prophet, a learned man. He is one of a long line of Prophets, starting with Abraham (or Ibrahim) and ending with Mohammed. Muslims regard Mohammed as the final, the last Prophet.

So Jesus has a much lower station in Islam (a Prophet, as opposed to a Messiah in Christianity).

 

[bluedog]

To Machjo, my regards.

There is a definite difference between how Christians regard Christ and how Muslims regard him. To Christians, Jesus was a Messiah, he was Son of God and hence a part of God.

To Muslims, Jesus is only a Prophet, a learned man. He is one of a long line of Prophets, starting with Abraham (or Ibrahim) and ending with Mohammed. Muslims regard Mohammed as the final, the last Prophet.

So Jesus has a much lower station in Islam (a Prophet, as opposed to a Messiah in Christianity).

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I am still a bit confused. You did say the Qur'an admitted Jesus was Messiah?

quoting:
"And yes, the Qur'an does refer to Jesus as the Messiah. "
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please remark on the following for me!

"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt."—Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35​

In calling Jesus a messenger, Muhammad was also correct. He did not mean that Jesus was not the Messiah. Muhammad knew that one could be a messenger and not be a Messiah… but as The Messiah, one is also a messenger.
Jesus was both a messenger and The Messiah that Allah had promised! What is a Messiah? A Messiah is always known as "a Saviour… a liberator and a deliverer." God had promised to send one (Messiah) to pay the debt of sin for all mankind.
The Messiah!… God's gift to sinful man… The Saviour… The Liberator… Our Redeemer. The prophets of the Torah foretold of His coming. Muhammad and his Disciples revered Him… the Qur'an and the Bible reveal Him! The Messiah… The Saviour of the world! Neither the Qur'an nor the Bible speak of any other as being the Messiah!!!
Dear friend, that is the most profound truth! And it is truth that cannot be denied. Jesus is the one and only Messiah. He is the Saviour. He is the Messiah of the Muslims, the Jews, and the Gentiles. Millions throughout the world of every nation and creed accept Him as Saviour.

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NOTE: this above is a thread from another forum I read. Not my opinion or thought on this subject. I remain open to teaching. Therefore your and other comments are appreciated. Peace to you.

 

[petros]

Just like the Christian the Muslim awaits the return of Jesus to set things right after subduing the dajjal or in english,the anti-christ.

 

[Cliffy]

They have been waiting for two thousand years. How many more generations will waste their time waiting before they realize that it is all a fiction and that he is not coming back to save their sorry asses.

 

[petros]

How many more generations will waste their time waiting before they realize that it is all a fiction and that he is not coming back to save their sorry asses.

Bummer. I was hoping to see Jesus kick Satan in the Baals. I guess I'll have settle for watching the Mel Gibson version on cable.

 

[Machjo]

There is a definite difference between how Christians regard Christ and how Muslims regard him. To Christians, Jesus was a Messiah, he was Son of God and hence a part of God.

To Muslims, Jesus is only a Prophet, a learned man. He is one of a long line of Prophets, starting with Abraham (or Ibrahim) and ending with Mohammed. Muslims regard Mohammed as the final, the last Prophet.

So Jesus has a much lower station in Islam (a Prophet, as opposed to a Messiah in Christianity).

Not quite. The Qur'an refers to him explicitely as the Masih (Messiah), though sees no contradiction with that and pointing out that Jesus was a divine Prophet of God. Then again, Jesus himself refers to himself as a prophet on a number of occasions in the Gospels. And some Christians do in fact have a similar view of Jesus as Muslims do. I believe Unitarians reject the Nicene definition of the Trinity if I'm not mistaken. Again, there are many different understandings of Bible.

 

[Machjo]

Just like the Christian the Muslim awaits the return of Jesus to set things right after subduing the dajjal or in english,the anti-christ.

That's the Sunni Version. The Shi'a often make reference to the return of the Mahdi followed by the Qa'im, though many Shi'a also claim that the Qa'im is in fact Jesus, and that the Mahdi will return similarly to John the Baptist, or Elijah. Again, all depending on their understanding of the text.

 

[Cliffy]

Bummer. I was hoping to see Jesus kick Satan in the Baals. I guess I'll have settle for watching the Mel Gibson version on cable.

Too funny!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I haven't heard much from Mel since he had to apologize for the Jewish remark.

 

[bluedog]

Wow, nice stuff Machjo!

That's the Sunni Version. The Shi'a often make reference to the return of the Mahdi followed by the Qa'im, though many Shi'a also claim that the Qa'im is in fact Jesus, and that the Mahdi will return similarly to John the Baptist, or Elijah. Again, all depending on their understanding of the text.

Is there any way I can get the sources for your information regards the differences in the "tribal sects" (would that be a correct term?) It would help in my studies. Where is the Mahdi tribe located?

Oh Yeah Brother, Happy Fathers Day

 

[bluedog]

Hey, What can I say... about Mel Gibson...

Too funny!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I haven't heard much from Mel since he had to apologize for the Jewish remark.

Mel is a struggling "born again" Catholic Christian struggling with his addictions right now- while and after, his life fell apart desperately as a result.

Give him time, in Communion, literally and figuratively , with
The Lord will lead him through all he needs to Learn.

Christians call it a contemporaneously a "Personal Spiritual Journey" while - the "Enlightened Ones" today call it "A Process".

 

[Cliffy]

Mel is a struggling "born again" Catholic Christian struggling with his addictions right now- while and after, his life fell apart desperately as a result.

Give him time, in Communion, literally and figuratively , with
The Lord will lead him through all he needs to Learn.

Christians call it a contemporaneously a "Personal Spiritual Journey" while - the "Enlightened Ones" today call it "A Process".

Have you every heard the expression, "Lighten up eh!"?

After studying various religions and spiritual paths for over forty years I came to the inevitable conclusion that one cannot become enlightened by being serious. To become enlightened is to shed the weight, the burden, of seriousness. Life was meant to be lived and enjoyed (without harm to others). The quickest way to the "kingdom" is through laughter. It requires a good sense of humour.

Religion of any kind is an anchor around the neck of humanity. The only philosophy worth contemplating is that of Monty Python and the Ministry of Silly Walks. Everything else only drags you down.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I am still a bit confused. You did say the Qur'an admitted Jesus was Messiah?

I don’t think I ever said that, bluedog. I remember on the previous forum (Canada.com) we did discuss this subject. There I got into argument with somebody as to whether Muslims regard Jesus as Prophet or Messiah. I took the position that Muslims regard Jesus as a Prophet, not a Messiah.

To my way of thinking, Messiah ranks above Prophet. Since Muslims regard Mohammed as a Prophet, it is highly unlikely that they will regard Jesus more highly than Mohammed. If they did, Islam would be almost a sect of Christianity, like Mormonism. Mormons regard Joseph Smith as the final prophet (same as Muslims do Mohammed). But they regard Jesus as the Messiah.

Considering how far removed Islam and Christianity are in practice (as compared to Mormonism and Christianity), I think it is highly unlikely that Muslims regard Jesus as the Messiah.

I remember when we had this discussion; we looked up references on the web. Most of them said that Islam regards Jesus as a Prophet; I think one or two of them said that he is regarded as the Messiah.

So there may be some scholars who think that Islam regards Jesus as the Messiah, but I think the consensus seems to be that he is a Prophet and not a Messiah.

 

[bluedog]

Have you every heard the expression, "Lighten up eh!"?

After studying various religions and spiritual paths for over forty years I came to the inevitable conclusion that one cannot become enlightened by being serious. To become enlightened is to shed the weight, the burden, of seriousness. Life was meant to be lived and enjoyed (without harm to others). The quickest way to the "kingdom" is through laughter. It requires a good sense of humour.

Religion of any kind is an anchor around the neck of humanity. The only philosophy worth contemplating is that of Monty Python and the Ministry of Silly Walks. Everything else only drags you down.

Cliffy my Brother, two quick thoughts came to mind with your reply. I myself am 57yrs young. My own path has lead me to witness miracles and revelations through prophecy. These were in my life and many friends, all evidence of the power of the Holy Spirit. It is very serious indeed, not quite Saul being struck off his horse- but powerful testimony. I will be glad to share sometime.
Secondly, you'll agree here. The burden and weight of being "the clown" is infamous. You lost your life if the King did not laugh, correct? That is weight!

Monty Python - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia " in an interview with Idle, "It was on an Air Canada flight on the way to Vancouver, when John (Cleese) turned to all of us and said 'I want out.' Why? I don't know. He gets bored more easily than the rest of us. He's a difficult man, not easy to be friendly with. He's so funny because he never wanted to be liked. That gives him a certain fascinating, arrogant freedom."[13]
The The burden, has required many clowns to hide all their inner sadness and emptiness with face paint "to be on" at all times, in an effort to evoke a smile before a word or idea is uttered.
Drugs, alcohol or both, are often irepairable solutions sought to ease this burden, correct?

Then, there is always- Edgar Gacy. smile!

No worries. Nothing is inevitable, your not concluded!
You still have time brother, relax lol!!! We enjoy the silliness.:lol:

 

[Machjo]

Is there any way I can get the sources for your information regards the differences in the "tribal sects" (would that be a correct term?) It would help in my studies. Where is the Mahdi tribe located?

Oh Yeah Brother, Happy Fathers Day

Try The Shi'a Homepage

You can access the Qur'an and Ahadith there.

 

[Machjo]

Islamic Textual Resources

You can find it all on this page.

 

[Machjo]

You should bear in mind though that it's probably best to just read their sacred texts and judge for yourself, sine like in all religions, everyone will have a different understanding.

 

[DurkaDurka]