#1May 27th, 2009
The real warfare,
Do religious leaders have the authority to make scientific judgments and do scientific leaders have the authority to make religious/metaphysical judgments?
Christianity and the Birth of Science
#2
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009
I'm not buying the arguments at that link. Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom, and didn't really get going in a form we'd recognize as modern science until The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. If Christianity really fostered the development of science, the episode with Galileo wouldn't have happened. Religious authority generally tries to suppress science.
"Do religious leaders have the authority to make scientific judgments..." Sure, if they're also scientists. Some pretty good scientists have been Jesuits, for instance.
"...and do scientific leaders have the authority to make religious/metaphysical judgments?" Sure, to the extent that religion makes empirical claims about the nature of things.
"Do religious leaders have the authority to make scientific judgments..." Sure, if they're also scientists. Some pretty good scientists have been Jesuits, for instance.
"...and do scientific leaders have the authority to make religious/metaphysical judgments?" Sure, to the extent that religion makes empirical claims about the nature of things.
#3
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister
Good day Dexter, interesting how religion as you say at the Galileo time was in full force, as we know Galileo was jailed for life for believing that our solar system was heliocentric, while the authorities or government intertwined by Christianity believed it was geocentric.I'm not buying the arguments at that link. Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom, and didn't really get going in a form we'd recognize as modern science until The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. If Christianity really fostered the development of science, the episode with Galileo wouldn't have happened. Religious authority generally tries to suppress science.
"Do religious leaders have the authority to make scientific judgments..." Sure, if they're also scientists. Some pretty good scientists have been Jesuits, for instance.
"...and do scientific leaders have the authority to make religious/metaphysical judgments?" Sure, to the extent that religion makes empirical claims about the nature of things.
The wrong that was inflicted on Galileo by Christianity back then, describes the fiber of religions at that time, Christianity in this case who had the ill conception of human existence.
Last edited by Socrates the Greek; May 27th, 2009 at 06:13 PM..
#4
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009
wow I didn't know the Chinese were Christians.
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#5
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009
How come any discussion of science and civilization tend to ignore some of the first and oldest civilizations to have existed, the ones right here in the Americas? Many are as old or older than the Chinese and had the mathematical, architectual and astrological know how to rival any civilization. They certainly were centuries ahead of any Europeans, possibly millennium.
#6
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009
I tend to not take my history/philosophy lessons from zoologist/geneticists.
I find it laughable that anyone would try to look at the development of science, technology, and industry, divorced of the factors of political stability, weather, geography, and access to resources. Oh yeah... it's the Judeo/Christian bit that was the key.
I find it laughable that anyone would try to look at the development of science, technology, and industry, divorced of the factors of political stability, weather, geography, and access to resources. Oh yeah... it's the Judeo/Christian bit that was the key.
#7
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote:
These fell from the sky with no explanation because science didn't exist? I'm not buying the arguments at that link. Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom, and didn't really get going in a form we'd recognize as modern science until The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution.
#8
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009
By the way they fell in a land known as Khemet. Ever heard of al-Khemey or al Ghebra?
#9
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy
Like who?How come any discussion of science and civilization tend to ignore some of the first and oldest civilizations to have existed, the ones right here in the Americas? Many are as old or older than the Chinese and had the mathematical, architectual and astrological know how to rival any civilization. They certainly were centuries ahead of any Europeans, possibly millennium.
#10
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert
Ever heard of Cusco?Like who?
#11
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
No. I know an al popow and an al zaharko, though.By the way they fell in a land known as Khemet. Ever heard of al-Khemey or al Ghebra?
#12
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
he said it didn't get going in what we'd recognize as modern science. Once the pyramids were built, did science keep on rolling in the region? No. Was it what we'd recognize as modern science? No. These fell from the sky with no explanation because science didn't exist?
Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there.
#13
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert
I wasn't expecting you would.No. I know an al popow and an al zaharko, though.
#14
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by karrie
THe science that built that WAS the religion.he said it didn't get going in what we'd recognize as modern science. Once the pyramids were built, did science keep on rolling in the region? No. Was it what we'd recognize as modern science? No.
Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there.
Never kept going? Nooooo more like it has been supressed by Pharoahs, Rabbis, Popes and kings
#15
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
sorry, but what does that have to do with what I said?THe science that built that WAS the religion.
#16
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by karrie
Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there. sorry, but what does that have to do with what I said?
Science lead to religion. Gnosis. Very very few but the iniates into the "mystery schools" held this knowledge of the "sacred geometry and geomancy". By the time an iniate used his magic science to impress a culture they all used it unwisely and demised through greed and control.
The same story has been repeated countless times through history through the rise and fall of the acquisition of this gnosis.
This great Jew and Christian arc everyone thinks is magic is purely the gnosis stolen from Egypt.
The gnosis of sacred geometry and geomancy has been used against the common man since the dawn of civilization and is heavily in use today.
#17
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
Ever heard the story of the young builder (builders have the gnosis gained as an iniate apprentice) who trashed a temple because the holders of gnosis (Rabbis) were cheating the people and was killed for it because he was educating people about this gnosis? Where was this hapening? In the house God built. God is Gnosis and is the builder of the universe.Impressive as hell... yes. But, much like the Mayans, it never kept going from there.
Science lead to religion. Gnosis. Very very few but the iniates into the "mystery schools" held this knowledge of the "sacred geometry and geomancy". By the time an iniate used his magic science to impress a culture they all used it unwisely and demised through greed and control.
The same story has been repeated countless times through history through the rise and fall of the acquisition of this gnosis.
This great Jew and Christian arc everyone thinks is magic is purely the gnosis stolen from Egypt.
The gnosis of sacred geometry and geomancy has been used against the common man since the dawn of civilization and is heavily in use today.
#18
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
al Khemey came along about 14th century. Christianity was rolling along quite well at the time. al Ghabra came along in about 13th century.I wasn't expecting you would.
#19
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert
Came to Christianity at that time yeah. Nice to see you looked at least.al Khemey came along about 14th century. Christianity was rolling along quite well at the time. al Ghabra came along in about 13th century.
#20
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009
Thus the Gnostic Gospels were suppressed by Constantine, and ordered burnt along with most scientific and "spiritual" knowledge. Only one copy survived the purge and today contains the knowledge that the RC and protestant, Jewish and Muslim clerics want to destroy and/or suppress. Because this knowledge makes null and void all present day religions. And they were written by the followers of Jesus.
#21
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009
Yuuuuuuup. The mathematic code aka Math hew(ed) and other books is fascinating it you know what to look for.
#22
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
I got curious. Most of the time it takes more than that to get me to look into history.Came to Christianity at that time yeah. Nice to see you looked at least.
#23
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert
It would have been impossible to create what they did as long ago as they did without science (applied gnosis) be it sphyxsters or making dye for clothing. Dye making is mixing minerals to make a compound. That is gnosis (science) at work. The recipes for dyes wee worth crazy wealth and respect in those days.I got curious. Most of the time it takes more than that to get me to look into history.
Small things like that easily get looked over.
#24
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
I did mention the Chinese, you know: as in manufacturing paper, gunpowder, printing, compasses, acupuncture, etc. I didn't say I was ignorant of history; just not terribly interested in most of it.It would have been impossible to create what they did as long ago as they did without science (applied gnosis) be it sphyxsters or making dye for clothing. Dye making is mixing minerals to make a compound. That is gnosis (science) at work. The recipes for dyes wee worth crazy wealth and respect in those days.
Small things like that easily get looked over.
#25
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by petros
I'd have thought somebody trained in the sciences would know better than to try on that particular logical fallacy. Actually it's two fallacies: ridicule rather than argument, and it attacks something I didn't say. It wasn't science that built those anyway, it was just good rule of thumb engineering, but that's irrelevant to what I wrote. My point was, in response to the OP, that Christianity and the rise of science are unrelated, Christianity has in fact done its best to suppress free inquiry for most of its history. I'll try it again with emphasis on the key point: "Christianity was around for about 1500 years before real science reared its head anywhere in Christendom..." Apparently you missed those last three words. These fell from the sky with no explanation because science didn't exist?
Christianity was several millennia in the future when those monuments were built, so whatever the ancient Egyptians knew about science and engineering, Christianity had nothing to do with it. The material at the link in the OP tries to argue that Christianity was an essential prerequisite for modern science to develop, I'm saying that argument is wrong.
#26
Re: Christianity and the Birth of Science
May 27th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister
And is still trying with gusto sometimes. ........Christianity has in fact done its best to suppress free inquiry for most of its history. ........
Quote:
You're right.........The material at the link in the OP tries to argue that Christianity was an essential prerequisite for modern science to develop, I'm saying that argument is wrong.
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