Hawkings former plumber
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February 22nd, 2008, 11:00 AM
The two groups you indicate cannot be compared because there only exists one group, the religious, the secular or atheists do not belong to a dogmatic institution. The religious have indicated that god and superstition will weigh in thier determinations while the athist is free to determine his/her actions unemcumbered by the sway of a parent group.
Therein lies the fundemental difference between the religious and the atheist, the religious have wholely or partially surrendered thier criticle thought proceeses to church dogma which has determined in advance the posture of the adherant, while the atheists judgement is not corrupted by religious dogma and tradition that has no basis in reality and is therefore free to consider all aspects of any question free of church or cult interference.
So, what you content, that on an individual basis a religious person and an atheist are equal is simply untrue and discounts the prooven psycological ailment of the religious who stubbornly and at great expence cling to a damaging and dangerous belief systems with no body of evidence whatever.
Quoting karrie
You're missing the point, it's the religion itself which promote the crimes of the past and present, it legitimizes intolerance and inhumane treatment of the nonbelievers, it's main criteria is to build and exemplify a difference based on dogma. This is what makes it such a dangerous and destructive practice. I would say without hesitation that atheists are better people than the religious, more comfortable with reality, less inclined to follow the herd, and not engaged in the disemination and perpetuations of falsehoods and abhorent practices such as sexism and discrimination based on fantasy and superstition.
You're fooling yourself if you think the eradication of religion will stop bad people from doing bad things. There's no basis in human behavior to believe that one excuse won't simply be traded for another. Atheists aren't better people than the religious, and vice versa. Belief that one group or the other is any better, or morally superior on an individual basis, is nothing but ludicrous.
The two groups you indicate cannot be compared because there only exists one group, the religious, the secular or atheists do not belong to a dogmatic institution. The religious have indicated that god and superstition will weigh in thier determinations while the athist is free to determine his/her actions unemcumbered by the sway of a parent group.
Therein lies the fundemental difference between the religious and the atheist, the religious have wholely or partially surrendered thier criticle thought proceeses to church dogma which has determined in advance the posture of the adherant, while the atheists judgement is not corrupted by religious dogma and tradition that has no basis in reality and is therefore free to consider all aspects of any question free of church or cult interference.
So, what you content, that on an individual basis a religious person and an atheist are equal is simply untrue and discounts the prooven psycological ailment of the religious who stubbornly and at great expence cling to a damaging and dangerous belief systems with no body of evidence whatever.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,604
February 22nd, 2008, 11:05 AM
While I agree with Beve's general thesis regarding the exercise of "religion" as dynamic in political and social domains, I'd add that religion affords the political elite a tool or weapons that isn't available to the atheist. Part of being an atheist is not succumbing very easily to any notion or construct that demands blind obedience. Not something that can be said of religious "belief"...
While I agree with Beve's general thesis regarding the exercise of "religion" as dynamic in political and social domains, I'd add that religion affords the political elite a tool or weapons that isn't available to the atheist. Part of being an atheist is not succumbing very easily to any notion or construct that demands blind obedience. Not something that can be said of religious "belief"...
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,795
February 22nd, 2008, 11:15 AM
I'm not a particularly religious man but nor am I going to insult those who are. As someone else already said; All Catholics are not responsible for the Inquisition or the fact that Pedophiles were attracted to that church to gain easy access to children. There have been terrible zealots, and out and out criminals in most of the Christian churches at one time or another over the years. That the churches have survived these things is something that always amazes me. Not long ago I read that some members of Jim Jones's terrible parrish were still around trying to resurrect that faith.
My parents were Christians and very good people, but somehow I never got the answers I needed. I didn't have the ability to just believe on faith alone and I probably, in some small way, envy those who can.
I'm not a particularly religious man but nor am I going to insult those who are. As someone else already said; All Catholics are not responsible for the Inquisition or the fact that Pedophiles were attracted to that church to gain easy access to children. There have been terrible zealots, and out and out criminals in most of the Christian churches at one time or another over the years. That the churches have survived these things is something that always amazes me. Not long ago I read that some members of Jim Jones's terrible parrish were still around trying to resurrect that faith.
My parents were Christians and very good people, but somehow I never got the answers I needed. I didn't have the ability to just believe on faith alone and I probably, in some small way, envy those who can.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,604
February 22nd, 2008, 11:23 AM
Juan
I tolerate/accept the right of any "believer" to practice his/her religious convictions until those convictions seek to control and dictate how everyone else should live.
When homophobia is one of the driving dogmas behind a religion that has hidden its pedophiles and quashed the truth when that truth is 'inconvienient' their value as a moral compass becomes highly questionable.
When TV evangelists are frothing their "Send me your money" message to millions of sheep who "believe" that act will ensure their residency in the great beyond..."heaven" while drugs prostitution and fraud are constantly revealed as the underpinnings behind many of these same TV evangelists....their message needs to be placed in the context of that behavior....
We've been so conditioned to believe whatever appears on the TV screen that rational critical thought is relegated to the status of "conspiracy theory"....
Juan
I tolerate/accept the right of any "believer" to practice his/her religious convictions until those convictions seek to control and dictate how everyone else should live.
When homophobia is one of the driving dogmas behind a religion that has hidden its pedophiles and quashed the truth when that truth is 'inconvienient' their value as a moral compass becomes highly questionable.
When TV evangelists are frothing their "Send me your money" message to millions of sheep who "believe" that act will ensure their residency in the great beyond..."heaven" while drugs prostitution and fraud are constantly revealed as the underpinnings behind many of these same TV evangelists....their message needs to be placed in the context of that behavior....
We've been so conditioned to believe whatever appears on the TV screen that rational critical thought is relegated to the status of "conspiracy theory"....
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,795
February 22nd, 2008, 11:44 AM
Mickey
I consider the TV evangelists to be phoney criminals. The Catholic Church has had some terrible set-backs but they always seem to survive. I think this suggests that there is a genuine need that the church fills. I've known a couple Catholic Priests who I considered to be absolute heroes for the work they did.
Mickey
I consider the TV evangelists to be phoney criminals. The Catholic Church has had some terrible set-backs but they always seem to survive. I think this suggests that there is a genuine need that the church fills. I've known a couple Catholic Priests who I considered to be absolute heroes for the work they did.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,132
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
February 22nd, 2008, 11:46 AM
Quoting Scott Free
Yeah, faith that love and non-violence is the right way to go has got to be a plague...
I think it is perfectly reasonable to condemn faith in the face of what it has really brought to humanity and all the horror it has caused. Perhaps you can decide which small pox virus is better then another but I don't want any infection period.
Quoting Scott Free
So what shall you do? Exterminate 'the plague'?
As for each individual member of a religion being judged on their own merit: this may seem on the outside like a perfectly reasonable request, however, one needs to bear in mind that each of these people, no matter how nice they are, is a plague barer and potential source for further infection.
Time Out
Posts: 360 
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 22nd, 2008, 05:44 PM
Even the Nazis had some kind hearted folks who showed true humanity...but the whole enterprise was corrupt to the core. The RC Church wileds power beyong imagining and you know what they say about power...
Quoting #juan
Mickey
I consider the TV evangelists to be phoney criminals. The Catholic Church has had some terrible set-backs but they always seem to survive. I think this suggests that there is a genuine need that the church fills. I've known a couple Catholic Priests who I considered to be absolute heroes for the work they did.
I consider the TV evangelists to be phoney criminals. The Catholic Church has had some terrible set-backs but they always seem to survive. I think this suggests that there is a genuine need that the church fills. I've known a couple Catholic Priests who I considered to be absolute heroes for the work they did.
Even the Nazis had some kind hearted folks who showed true humanity...but the whole enterprise was corrupt to the core. The RC Church wileds power beyong imagining and you know what they say about power...
February 22nd, 2008, 05:49 PM
Quoting mrgrumpy
If you want to compare people to Nazis, start with anyone in this thread who has said anything about needing to reprogram the thinking of others, or eradicate 'their kind'. Oh, wait, that would be the atheists, not the Christians. Hmmmm.
Even the Nazis had some kind hearted folks who showed true humanity...but the whole enterprise was corrupt to the core. The RC Church wileds power beyong imagining and you know what they say about power...
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,795
February 22nd, 2008, 06:11 PM
Quoting mrgrumpy
mrgrumpy. We haven't talked before as far as I know, but to compare the church with Nazis is complete bull. Any organization with millions of members wields a lot of power. The Mormans wield a lot of power. The Jews wield a lot of power. The Muslims wield a lot of power. You are talking through your hat. I would recommend a bit of reading.....And a lot of thought.
Even the Nazis had some kind hearted folks who showed true humanity...but the whole enterprise was corrupt to the core. The RC Church wileds power beyong imagining and you know what they say about power...
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,442
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February 22nd, 2008, 06:22 PM
And they get that power from where? Not democracy, not the people, they get it from an invented hateful god who has butchered his flock since day one. It's long past time to educate the practice out of the species once and for all, the freakish un-natural experiment with mass delusion is a failure.
And they get that power from where? Not democracy, not the people, they get it from an invented hateful god who has butchered his flock since day one. It's long past time to educate the practice out of the species once and for all, the freakish un-natural experiment with mass delusion is a failure.
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,795
February 22nd, 2008, 06:27 PM
Quoting darkbeaver
Darkbeaver, can you say paranoia....?
And they get that power from where? Not democracy, not the people, they get it from an invented hateful god who has butchered his flock since day one. It's long past time to educate the practice out of the species once and for all, the freakish un-natural experiment with mass delusion is a failure.
Newbie
Posts: 16
February 22nd, 2008, 06:43 PM
We have enough pain and suffering in our world today. It is our personal Beliefs that keep us grounded. Is it not part of human nature to fullfill our need to believe we are here for a purpose(reason)? And would it not be to our advantage to ensure it is a positive one?
Having read this whole thread mrgrumpy , it reminds me of one of Shakespeares quotes:
"Hell is empty. All the Devils live here."
My Spirituality is part of who I am as a whole person. I can not see human beings exist in harmony with themselves or each other without that.
Quoting mrgrumpy
Why Oh Why debate whether or not today's Bibles are true/untrue, evil, brainwashing, mythological(Oooops! No attempt there yet.)
Even the Nazis had some kind hearted folks who showed true humanity...but the whole enterprise was corrupt to the core. The RC Church wileds power beyong imagining and you know what they say about power...
We have enough pain and suffering in our world today. It is our personal Beliefs that keep us grounded. Is it not part of human nature to fullfill our need to believe we are here for a purpose(reason)? And would it not be to our advantage to ensure it is a positive one?
Having read this whole thread mrgrumpy , it reminds me of one of Shakespeares quotes:
"Hell is empty. All the Devils live here."
My Spirituality is part of who I am as a whole person. I can not see human beings exist in harmony with themselves or each other without that.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,647
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 07:15 PM
why waste your time on the adlepated?
Quoting karrie
If you want to compare people to Nazis, start with anyone in this thread who has said anything about needing to reprogram the thinking of others, or eradicate 'their kind'. Oh, wait, that would be the atheists, not the Christians. Hmmmm.
why waste your time on the adlepated?
Super Genius
Posts: 1,132
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
February 22nd, 2008, 07:28 PM
And what exactly would be the difference between nature and God?
Oh yeah... and what are ''normal human relations''???
Quoting darkbeaver
Which truths and which laws of nature?
Atheism is not a belief system it is considered normal human relations built upon truth and the laws of nature.
And what exactly would be the difference between nature and God?
Oh yeah... and what are ''normal human relations''???
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,650
Location: Vancouver Island
Location: Vancouver Island
February 22nd, 2008, 07:43 PM
a happy life, I don't criticize what and how they want to believe in their religion, (with exception of violence. )
I don't think like them, never will, I do feel totally free of those types of rules, BUT I
would never insist they should think like I do, or feel they are not as good as I because
they don't, it's a free world, and if they all thought the same, the world would be a
much more peaceful place.
Quoting darkbeaver
I thoroughly agree with your explanation, you said it very well. I wish all religious people
You're missing the point, it's the religion itself which promote the crimes of the past and present, it legitimizes intolerance and inhumane treatment of the nonbelievers, it's main criteria is to build and exemplify a difference based on dogma. This is what makes it such a dangerous and destructive practice. I would say without hesitation that atheists are better people than the religious, more comfortable with reality, less inclined to follow the herd, and not engaged in the disemination and perpetuations of falsehoods and abhorent practices such as sexism and discrimination based on fantasy and superstition.
The two groups you indicate cannot be compared because there only exists one group, the religious, the secular or atheists do not belong to a dogmatic institution. The religious have indicated that god and superstition will weigh in thier determinations while the athist is free to determine his/her actions unemcumbered by the sway of a parent group.
Therein lies the fundemental difference between the religious and the atheist, the religious have wholely or partially surrendered thier criticle thought proceeses to church dogma which has determined in advance the posture of the adherant, while the atheists judgement is not corrupted by religious dogma and tradition that has no basis in reality and is therefore free to consider all aspects of any question free of church or cult interference.
So, what you content, that on an individual basis a religious person and an atheist are equal is simply untrue and discounts the prooven psycological ailment of the religious who stubbornly and at great expence cling to a damaging and dangerous belief systems with no body of evidence whatever.
The two groups you indicate cannot be compared because there only exists one group, the religious, the secular or atheists do not belong to a dogmatic institution. The religious have indicated that god and superstition will weigh in thier determinations while the athist is free to determine his/her actions unemcumbered by the sway of a parent group.
Therein lies the fundemental difference between the religious and the atheist, the religious have wholely or partially surrendered thier criticle thought proceeses to church dogma which has determined in advance the posture of the adherant, while the atheists judgement is not corrupted by religious dogma and tradition that has no basis in reality and is therefore free to consider all aspects of any question free of church or cult interference.
So, what you content, that on an individual basis a religious person and an atheist are equal is simply untrue and discounts the prooven psycological ailment of the religious who stubbornly and at great expence cling to a damaging and dangerous belief systems with no body of evidence whatever.
a happy life, I don't criticize what and how they want to believe in their religion, (with exception of violence. )
I don't think like them, never will, I do feel totally free of those types of rules, BUT I
would never insist they should think like I do, or feel they are not as good as I because
they don't, it's a free world, and if they all thought the same, the world would be a
much more peaceful place.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,647
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 07:58 PM
Jeez..... you can' get anything right..can ya numb nuts.....I sometimes wonder how you manage to get up in the morning and remember to breath.
Ya know....I was gonna go point by point.....but after re reading your pile if shyte...twice.... I decided to follow my own advice that I gave to Kerrie. Have fun with your own religion.
Quoting darkbeaver
You're missing the point, it's the religion itself which promote the crimes of the past and present, it legitimizes intolerance and inhumane treatment of the nonbelievers, it's main criteria is to build and exemplify a difference based on dogma. This is what makes it such a dangerous and destructive practice. I would say without hesitation that atheists are better people than the religious, more comfortable with reality, less inclined to follow the herd, and not engaged in the disemination and perpetuations of falsehoods and abhorent practices such as sexism and discrimination based on fantasy and superstition.
The two groups you indicate cannot be compared because there only exists one group, the religious, the secular or atheists do not belong to a dogmatic institution. The religious have indicated that god and superstition will weigh in thier determinations while the athist is free to determine his/her actions unemcumbered by the sway of a parent group.
Therein lies the fundemental difference between the religious and the atheist, the religious have wholely or partially surrendered thier criticle thought proceeses to church dogma which has determined in advance the posture of the adherant, while the atheists judgement is not corrupted by religious dogma and tradition that has no basis in reality and is therefore free to consider all aspects of any question free of church or cult interference.
So, what you content, that on an individual basis a religious person and an atheist are equal is simply untrue and discounts the prooven psycological ailment of the religious who stubbornly and at great expence cling to a damaging and dangerous belief systems with no body of evidence whatever.
The two groups you indicate cannot be compared because there only exists one group, the religious, the secular or atheists do not belong to a dogmatic institution. The religious have indicated that god and superstition will weigh in thier determinations while the athist is free to determine his/her actions unemcumbered by the sway of a parent group.
Therein lies the fundemental difference between the religious and the atheist, the religious have wholely or partially surrendered thier criticle thought proceeses to church dogma which has determined in advance the posture of the adherant, while the atheists judgement is not corrupted by religious dogma and tradition that has no basis in reality and is therefore free to consider all aspects of any question free of church or cult interference.
So, what you content, that on an individual basis a religious person and an atheist are equal is simply untrue and discounts the prooven psycological ailment of the religious who stubbornly and at great expence cling to a damaging and dangerous belief systems with no body of evidence whatever.
Jeez..... you can' get anything right..can ya numb nuts.....I sometimes wonder how you manage to get up in the morning and remember to breath.
Ya know....I was gonna go point by point.....but after re reading your pile if shyte...twice.... I decided to follow my own advice that I gave to Kerrie. Have fun with your own religion.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,442
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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February 22nd, 2008, 07:58 PM
I don't have to give religious dogma 1mm of respect, especially since I know the christian fraud is proven through forensic, historical, archeological and physical evidence to be a con.So what am I to recommend to youth that they adhere to fraud that they surrender common sence and reason to a long dead little understood historical figure who would not have understood the christian story in any period of the last two-thousand years, indeed I'm positive that he would have been tortured and impaled on a stake or burned by his flock at anytime during the five hundred years of the inquizition just for speaking his own supposed words in the street. As a matter of fact the Cathars were recognizably christlike and were exterminated by the Roman faction for that.
I'll just let the paranoid crack pass. sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me
Quoting #juan
I can. Can you say Northern Ireland, The Thirty Years War, the genocide conducted on the Cathars the slaveing of indiginous people over the entire globe for hundreds of years? Can you say fraud theft and murder on an unchallengeable record of delivered misery? The history of religion itself condemns it without exception, it (religion) has no bearing or contribution to morals ethics or standards of common decency whatever. Not to mention the enormous body of evidence that negates the the christian history which the bible totally obscures.
Darkbeaver, can you say paranoia....?
I don't have to give religious dogma 1mm of respect, especially since I know the christian fraud is proven through forensic, historical, archeological and physical evidence to be a con.So what am I to recommend to youth that they adhere to fraud that they surrender common sence and reason to a long dead little understood historical figure who would not have understood the christian story in any period of the last two-thousand years, indeed I'm positive that he would have been tortured and impaled on a stake or burned by his flock at anytime during the five hundred years of the inquizition just for speaking his own supposed words in the street. As a matter of fact the Cathars were recognizably christlike and were exterminated by the Roman faction for that.
I'll just let the paranoid crack pass. sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me
