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September 27th, 2007, 11:09 AM
this is a hard concept for me to explain.
It arose from the thread asking whether humans are evolving toward monogamy. A member asked the question "from a zoological point of view, are humans monogamous". And I asked myself, whether perhaps the strength of human free will negates any "zoological" classification.
Perhaps we're not "naturally" anything, since we can choose not to be.
For instance, most mammals are either aquatic or not, whereas some humans choose to spend their lives swimming every day, and others don't.
However, there seem to be some "natural" qualities which we cannot over-ride with our "free will". For instance, most mammals have a hierarchical social order, if they are gregarious. Many human societies have set out to lose this hierarchy, but none to my knowledge have succeeded....
So what if the strength of human willpower is growing? what will we be able to will ourselves to do in the future?
this is a hard concept for me to explain.
It arose from the thread asking whether humans are evolving toward monogamy. A member asked the question "from a zoological point of view, are humans monogamous". And I asked myself, whether perhaps the strength of human free will negates any "zoological" classification.
Perhaps we're not "naturally" anything, since we can choose not to be.
For instance, most mammals are either aquatic or not, whereas some humans choose to spend their lives swimming every day, and others don't.
However, there seem to be some "natural" qualities which we cannot over-ride with our "free will". For instance, most mammals have a hierarchical social order, if they are gregarious. Many human societies have set out to lose this hierarchy, but none to my knowledge have succeeded....
So what if the strength of human willpower is growing? what will we be able to will ourselves to do in the future?
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September 27th, 2007, 11:13 AM
I think humans are quite natural. We may think we're using our intellect to decide actions but I do believe our choices are instinctual. Desmond Morris has some really interesting books that explain just how animalistic humans really are.
I think humans are quite natural. We may think we're using our intellect to decide actions but I do believe our choices are instinctual. Desmond Morris has some really interesting books that explain just how animalistic humans really are.
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September 27th, 2007, 11:35 AM
On Twila's point....IMHO
We are partly animal....there are millions of years of animal instincts firing away in all of us..I think law , in europe anyway, takes this in account when dealing with certain sex crime....they take the drive into account...ok shoot me.....
Our very evolution is said to have been triggered when an ape stood up to see who was out there that might want to have him for lunch....
Adrenal glands...fight or flight....comes from a time when we lived with beasts as our neighbors .....and in our so called civilised society is being triggered from completly different enviormental response....Case in point..."The Office Workplace".....
Natural born killers?...some would argue we are just that....Just like we learned to prune trees and develope agriculture and domesticate animals we try to civilise ourselves......It's the higher thought processes that induce this activity in the human ...
We are trying to get away from the dog eat dog aspect of nature....
the human mind is so much more complex than the animal brain....
It's develpoement i think is hindered by law of the jungle instincts imbedded in our being.
On Twila's point....IMHO
We are partly animal....there are millions of years of animal instincts firing away in all of us..I think law , in europe anyway, takes this in account when dealing with certain sex crime....they take the drive into account...ok shoot me.....
Our very evolution is said to have been triggered when an ape stood up to see who was out there that might want to have him for lunch....
Adrenal glands...fight or flight....comes from a time when we lived with beasts as our neighbors .....and in our so called civilised society is being triggered from completly different enviormental response....Case in point..."The Office Workplace".....
Natural born killers?...some would argue we are just that....Just like we learned to prune trees and develope agriculture and domesticate animals we try to civilise ourselves......It's the higher thought processes that induce this activity in the human ...
We are trying to get away from the dog eat dog aspect of nature....
the human mind is so much more complex than the animal brain....
It's develpoement i think is hindered by law of the jungle instincts imbedded in our being.
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September 27th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Very good question Hermanntrude!
If free will is real and not simply an illusion then I'd have to say that yes, humans have the power to creatively define themselves...
But that being said, we didn't appear in a vacuum... We can't dismiss our biological reality...
We all need love, that's for sure... But then, maybe some serial killers don't...
Very good question Hermanntrude!
If free will is real and not simply an illusion then I'd have to say that yes, humans have the power to creatively define themselves...
But that being said, we didn't appear in a vacuum... We can't dismiss our biological reality...
We all need love, that's for sure... But then, maybe some serial killers don't...
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September 27th, 2007, 11:54 AM
just exactly how far can this go? we all know that will-power, while strong in humans compared to say, a duck, is pretty feeble when it comes up against something like... chocolate... or nicotine....
Maybe it's getting stronger? perhaps one day humans will be able to decide to make their heart beat faster or slower... some can do that already. some people can perform some amazing feats. What kinds of life might be available to a species that has total control over their own behaviour?
Quoting s_lone
That's exactly why the question is so interesting to me...
But that being said, we didn't appear in a vacuum... We can't dismiss our biological reality...
.
.
just exactly how far can this go? we all know that will-power, while strong in humans compared to say, a duck, is pretty feeble when it comes up against something like... chocolate... or nicotine....
Maybe it's getting stronger? perhaps one day humans will be able to decide to make their heart beat faster or slower... some can do that already. some people can perform some amazing feats. What kinds of life might be available to a species that has total control over their own behaviour?
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September 27th, 2007, 11:59 AM
We have like this body and chemistry that evolved from the animal kingdom...
Then there is this mind that evolved from a higher aspect..Or is an aspect of existance that finds itself useing the human brain as a vehicle to what you are pointing to Hermann....
Quoting hermanntrude
you see this is where i was trying to go.....
That's exactly why the question is so interesting to me...
just exactly how far can this go? we all know that will-power, while strong in humans compared to say, a duck, is pretty feeble when it comes up against something like... chocolate... or nicotine....
Maybe it's getting stronger? perhaps one day humans will be able to decide to make their heart beat faster or slower... some can do that already. some people can perform some amazing feats. What kinds of life might be available to a species that has total control over their own behaviour?
just exactly how far can this go? we all know that will-power, while strong in humans compared to say, a duck, is pretty feeble when it comes up against something like... chocolate... or nicotine....
Maybe it's getting stronger? perhaps one day humans will be able to decide to make their heart beat faster or slower... some can do that already. some people can perform some amazing feats. What kinds of life might be available to a species that has total control over their own behaviour?
We have like this body and chemistry that evolved from the animal kingdom...
Then there is this mind that evolved from a higher aspect..Or is an aspect of existance that finds itself useing the human brain as a vehicle to what you are pointing to Hermann....
September 27th, 2007, 12:10 PM
is human will getting stronger... hmmm. As obesity rises, divorce hits an all time high, and Paris Hilton dominates the airwaves to appease the general public's drama addiction, I find it hard to say we are strengthening our will in any way. But then again, perhaps we're just not smart enough to see that this is the path we truly want to take.
is human will getting stronger... hmmm. As obesity rises, divorce hits an all time high, and Paris Hilton dominates the airwaves to appease the general public's drama addiction, I find it hard to say we are strengthening our will in any way. But then again, perhaps we're just not smart enough to see that this is the path we truly want to take.
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September 27th, 2007, 12:25 PM
They say the path of least resistance is quite crowded.
Quoting karrie
Will power is definately NOT getting stronger. We, as a species, are getting weaker and weaker. We know what we need to do, but aren't willing to do it.
is human will getting stronger... hmmm. As obesity rises, divorce hits an all time high, and Paris Hilton dominates the airwaves to appease the general public's drama addiction, I find it hard to say we are strengthening our will in any way. But then again, perhaps we're just not smart enough to see that this is the path we truly want to take.
They say the path of least resistance is quite crowded.
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September 27th, 2007, 12:28 PM
Quoting karrie
or perhaps those of us with stronger wills are setting examples to those of us with little or none, up to which they cannot live... perhaps some of us are finding ourselves in situations where our willpower isn't what we thought it was. But maybe it was only that will that put us in that position in the first place
is human will getting stronger... hmmm. As obesity rises, divorce hits an all time high, and Paris Hilton dominates the airwaves to appease the general public's drama addiction, I find it hard to say we are strengthening our will in any way. But then again, perhaps we're just not smart enough to see that this is the path we truly want to take.
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September 27th, 2007, 12:29 PM
Quoting Twila
the path of least resistance has ALWAYS been crowded. In fact at some time in the past, almost no members of our species were even aware that there were any OTHER paths.
Will power is definately NOT getting stronger. We, as a species, are getting weaker and weaker. We know what we need to do, but aren't willing to do it.
They say the path of least resistance is quite crowded.
They say the path of least resistance is quite crowded.
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September 27th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Quote:
Are we only speaking of will power? Would intelligents be part of will power? Because for the most part we run with our emotions not with our intellect.
or perhaps those of us with stronger wills are setting examples to those of us with little or none, up to which they cannot live...
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September 27th, 2007, 12:57 PM
Imagine a chimpanzee suddenly realizing it didn't have to fight that other alpha male at all, but could start a swingers club instead.
Quoting Twila
You're completely correct, Twila, don't get me wrong, but my point is that a very short time ago in evolutionary terms [creationists, please sod off RIGHT NOW] we didn't have anything BUT our base emotions and simple urges. NOW we have a choice. Admittedly we usually don't even realise we have a choice.... but perhaps in another million years humans will be deciding all sorts of things we didn't even think we COULD decide...
Are we only speaking of will power? Would intelligents be part of will power? Because for the most part we run with our emotions not with our intellect.
Imagine a chimpanzee suddenly realizing it didn't have to fight that other alpha male at all, but could start a swingers club instead.
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September 27th, 2007, 01:44 PM
I don't see that we have evolved up from the original base emotions and simple urges - we now have clinical names for them and explanations for why we give in to them.
They still exist and are acted upon by the majority of humans in our world.
We don't really have a choice at all - we only believe we do because we have been told there are other ways - but how many choose the higher path? The unselfish, uncomfortable path to ultimate control of self?
Very few.
Quoting hermanntrude
Hermann
You're completely correct, Twila, don't get me wrong, but my point is that a very short time ago in evolutionary terms [creationists, please sod off RIGHT NOW] we didn't have anything BUT our base emotions and simple urges. NOW we have a choice. Admittedly we usually don't even realise we have a choice.... but perhaps in another million years humans will be deciding all sorts of things we didn't even think we COULD decide...
Imagine a chimpanzee suddenly realizing it didn't have to fight that other alpha male at all, but could start a swingers club instead.
Imagine a chimpanzee suddenly realizing it didn't have to fight that other alpha male at all, but could start a swingers club instead.
I don't see that we have evolved up from the original base emotions and simple urges - we now have clinical names for them and explanations for why we give in to them.
They still exist and are acted upon by the majority of humans in our world.
We don't really have a choice at all - we only believe we do because we have been told there are other ways - but how many choose the higher path? The unselfish, uncomfortable path to ultimate control of self?
Very few.
September 27th, 2007, 02:01 PM
It's only recent in our time on the earth that we have even had some notion of our own power to shape our future. Let's say up until 10,000 years ago when our daily lives revolved around capturing and gathering food, staying alive was the goal. That's very natural. In the more recent last 10,000 years, we have been able to settle down in one area, to control biological processes around us, essentially changing the ecology of our surroundings to suit our needs. More localized communities gave rise to writing, language, science, and history ultimately. I don't think the term natural applies to us anymore, as we do things in a very different manner in relation to the rest of life on this planet.
I guess to me we can look at life and the history of our planet, and follow the natural progression of things. Now, we have the power to change that progression. We can wipe out species, we can create hybrids, we can perform things which are very much not part of that natural progression.
It's only recent in our time on the earth that we have even had some notion of our own power to shape our future. Let's say up until 10,000 years ago when our daily lives revolved around capturing and gathering food, staying alive was the goal. That's very natural. In the more recent last 10,000 years, we have been able to settle down in one area, to control biological processes around us, essentially changing the ecology of our surroundings to suit our needs. More localized communities gave rise to writing, language, science, and history ultimately. I don't think the term natural applies to us anymore, as we do things in a very different manner in relation to the rest of life on this planet.
I guess to me we can look at life and the history of our planet, and follow the natural progression of things. Now, we have the power to change that progression. We can wipe out species, we can create hybrids, we can perform things which are very much not part of that natural progression.
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September 27th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Majority is correct, but not totality. That's my point. Free will is weak, but perhaps it's growing?
Quoting Curiosity
that's my point. If a mollusc has an urge to squirt water, there's NO choice at all as to whether it'll do it. If a human has an urge to spit, he might decide not to. Hermann
I don't see that we have evolved up from the original base emotions and simple urges - we now have clinical names for them and explanations for why we give in to them.
They still exist and are acted upon by the majority of humans in our world.
We don't really have a choice at all - we only believe we do because we have been told there are other ways - but how many choose the higher path? The unselfish, uncomfortable path to ultimate control of self?
Very few.
I don't see that we have evolved up from the original base emotions and simple urges - we now have clinical names for them and explanations for why we give in to them.
They still exist and are acted upon by the majority of humans in our world.
We don't really have a choice at all - we only believe we do because we have been told there are other ways - but how many choose the higher path? The unselfish, uncomfortable path to ultimate control of self?
Very few.
Majority is correct, but not totality. That's my point. Free will is weak, but perhaps it's growing?
September 27th, 2007, 02:19 PM
Quoting Curiosity
And those who do choose such a path, often excuse themselves from the breeding process.
- but how many choose the higher path? The unselfish, uncomfortable path to ultimate control of self?
Very few.
Very few.
