A modern nomad
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Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 12th, 2007, 07:53 PM
This is a thought that I had on a jet ride from Calgary to Halifax. Bear in mind that I am an atheist: I genuinely believe that my corpse will rot and my memories be lost forever. So you may not wish to read this.
Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins. Now, it must be a very real death to have any meaning. If his suffering is an act, then he is merely mocking our condition or at the very least Jesus's crucifixion would be rendered meaningless: he could have simply told us in sincerity that he was going to absolve us. If the death was an act than it was not a sacrifice and the son of god was not sacrificed for the sins of man, more like a pin prick: the nuisance of taking on an avatar. Simply put, Jesus must die a real, human death.
Yet, to die a human death, you must fear the loss of life. Sure there are some people that go running to their death for reasons of glory but a reasonable person would deem that a sort of suicide. Furthermore, none of us really has the certainty of "a life everlasting" or of reincarnation, there could be nothing but a grave, or worse: eternal damnation. Furthermore, no reasonable person sees any meaning in death. Although "the meaning of life" is nebulous at best, helping the weak, spending time with family and friends, taking pride in our creations, and seeing the next sunset are all things that give us meaning of sorts. Death, it serves no immediate purpose to look forward to and life will always flee from death so long as it has the strength.
The supposed miracles that Jesus performed: walking on water, turning water to wine and bread to fish, quelling a storm, making a fig tree die, curing the sick, and banishing demons all point towards Jesus being deific. Yet in his godliness, he could take himself down from the cross. He could smite those who would crucify him like the people of Soddom and Gemorra. Jesus has the certainty of a life everlasting by verily knowing that he is the son of God and therefore immortal. Also being God, Jesus would know that his death would serve the greatest purpose of all: the absolution of sin in humankind.
So to me, there is an apparent conflict between Jesus being a God on Earth, and Jesus dying a human death. Since with a snap of his fingers he could have, as he was alleged to have done before, performed a miracle, his death was at best a suicide, a mock sacrifice.
To me, an atheist, that is a simple and manifest conflict. With the power to bend the laws of physics I would never die a real death. I would have to choose the hour of my own death. With the knowledge of a greater life waiting for me through my own death, I would simply be en par with a very unpleasant operation. Only by not having these powers at my disposal do I die a human death. Thus I pose the dichotomy: either Jesus was God on Earth, or he died a human death, not both.
This is a thought that I had on a jet ride from Calgary to Halifax. Bear in mind that I am an atheist: I genuinely believe that my corpse will rot and my memories be lost forever. So you may not wish to read this.
Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins. Now, it must be a very real death to have any meaning. If his suffering is an act, then he is merely mocking our condition or at the very least Jesus's crucifixion would be rendered meaningless: he could have simply told us in sincerity that he was going to absolve us. If the death was an act than it was not a sacrifice and the son of god was not sacrificed for the sins of man, more like a pin prick: the nuisance of taking on an avatar. Simply put, Jesus must die a real, human death.
Yet, to die a human death, you must fear the loss of life. Sure there are some people that go running to their death for reasons of glory but a reasonable person would deem that a sort of suicide. Furthermore, none of us really has the certainty of "a life everlasting" or of reincarnation, there could be nothing but a grave, or worse: eternal damnation. Furthermore, no reasonable person sees any meaning in death. Although "the meaning of life" is nebulous at best, helping the weak, spending time with family and friends, taking pride in our creations, and seeing the next sunset are all things that give us meaning of sorts. Death, it serves no immediate purpose to look forward to and life will always flee from death so long as it has the strength.
The supposed miracles that Jesus performed: walking on water, turning water to wine and bread to fish, quelling a storm, making a fig tree die, curing the sick, and banishing demons all point towards Jesus being deific. Yet in his godliness, he could take himself down from the cross. He could smite those who would crucify him like the people of Soddom and Gemorra. Jesus has the certainty of a life everlasting by verily knowing that he is the son of God and therefore immortal. Also being God, Jesus would know that his death would serve the greatest purpose of all: the absolution of sin in humankind.
So to me, there is an apparent conflict between Jesus being a God on Earth, and Jesus dying a human death. Since with a snap of his fingers he could have, as he was alleged to have done before, performed a miracle, his death was at best a suicide, a mock sacrifice.
To me, an atheist, that is a simple and manifest conflict. With the power to bend the laws of physics I would never die a real death. I would have to choose the hour of my own death. With the knowledge of a greater life waiting for me through my own death, I would simply be en par with a very unpleasant operation. Only by not having these powers at my disposal do I die a human death. Thus I pose the dichotomy: either Jesus was God on Earth, or he died a human death, not both.
Time Out
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June 12th, 2007, 09:22 PM
Dats some pretty fukced up chit coming from an atheist.
Dats some pretty fukced up chit coming from an atheist.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,322
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June 12th, 2007, 09:53 PM
It makes sense to me. He did have many many choices, (if he was what believers say he was), so
what's the point of suffering on a cross. Someone with so many choices at his miracle finger tips,
surely could have thought up something a little more intelligent and non messy, but then, with all
of those powers, he could have rendered himself painless, when they hammered stakes into his
hands and feet.
I personally don't believe anyone ever had the ability to perform miracles, ever.
It makes sense to me. He did have many many choices, (if he was what believers say he was), so
what's the point of suffering on a cross. Someone with so many choices at his miracle finger tips,
surely could have thought up something a little more intelligent and non messy, but then, with all
of those powers, he could have rendered himself painless, when they hammered stakes into his
hands and feet.
I personally don't believe anyone ever had the ability to perform miracles, ever.
Time Out
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June 12th, 2007, 09:58 PM
Quoting talloola
Yeah but for an Atheist to be actually ponderin that sort of line of thinking...hmmmmmm...are you sure you are an atheist....*said more like a white guy*
It makes sense to me. He did have many many choices, (if he was what believers say he was), so
what's the point of suffering on a cross. Someone with so many choices at his miracle finger tips,
surely could have thought up something a little more intelligent and non messy, but then, with all
of those powers, he could have rendered himself painless, when they hammered stakes into his
hands and feet.
I personally don't believe anyone ever had the ability to perform miracles, ever.
what's the point of suffering on a cross. Someone with so many choices at his miracle finger tips,
surely could have thought up something a little more intelligent and non messy, but then, with all
of those powers, he could have rendered himself painless, when they hammered stakes into his
hands and feet.
I personally don't believe anyone ever had the ability to perform miracles, ever.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 12th, 2007, 10:28 PM
Of course, rationality has its problems as well. I can more easily show the puzzling fact that: either you are conceited, or you are inconsistent and possibly both.
Quoting DocDred
Haha, yes, I am definitely an atheist. A large part of my childhood was spent grappling with the notion of spirituality. I ended up a tiny bit bitter and feel the need to provide more and more evidence against modern mythologies.
Yeah but for an Atheist to be actually ponderin that sort of line of thinking...hmmmmmm...are you sure you are an atheist....*said more like a white guy*
Of course, rationality has its problems as well. I can more easily show the puzzling fact that: either you are conceited, or you are inconsistent and possibly both.
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June 12th, 2007, 10:35 PM
Ya might have misread btw the lines of my first reply.
I was glad to have the second to lighten a point.
cheers
d
Quoting Niflmir
Actually I respect atheists for they think. They have to ,or you can't become one.
Haha, yes, I am definitely an atheist. A large part of my childhood was spent grappling with the notion of spirituality. I ended up a tiny bit bitter and feel the need to provide more and more evidence against modern mythologies.
Of course, rationality has its problems as well. I can more easily show the puzzling fact that: either you are conceited, or you are inconsistent and possibly both.
Of course, rationality has its problems as well. I can more easily show the puzzling fact that: either you are conceited, or you are inconsistent and possibly both.
Ya might have misread btw the lines of my first reply.
I was glad to have the second to lighten a point.
cheers
d
June 12th, 2007, 10:48 PM
The only thing I think about in a jet is 'Jesus get us there in one piece..what happens if the wings fall off?..I hope this isn't one of those convertible 737's..wasn't that flight attendant in the movie airport?...and the priest?...and the diabled child?..flight 103, sounds like an accident waiting to happen..let me off of this damn plaaaane..we're all gonna diiiiiee!!'
Then it taxis onto the runway.
The only thing I think about in a jet is 'Jesus get us there in one piece..what happens if the wings fall off?..I hope this isn't one of those convertible 737's..wasn't that flight attendant in the movie airport?...and the priest?...and the diabled child?..flight 103, sounds like an accident waiting to happen..let me off of this damn plaaaane..we're all gonna diiiiiee!!'
Then it taxis onto the runway.
A Mad Mulligan
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June 12th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Quoting Kreskin
You know the train is nice. Jesus would have taken the train when he wasn't sailing.
The only thing I think about in a jet is 'Jesus get us there in one piece..what happens if the wings fall off?..I hope this isn't one of those convertible 737's..wasn't that flight attendant in the movie airport?...and the priest?...and the diabled child?..flight 103, sounds like an accident waiting to happen..let me off of this damn plaaaane..we're all gonna diiiiiee!!'
Then it taxis onto the runway.
Then it taxis onto the runway.
June 12th, 2007, 11:25 PM
Quoting Unforgiven
I agree. Flying is the work of the devil.
You know the train is nice. Jesus would have taken the train when he wasn't sailing.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 12th, 2007, 11:26 PM
Quoting Kreskin
The only thing I think about in a jet is 'Jesus get us there in one piece..what happens if the wings fall off?..I hope this isn't one of those convertible 737's..wasn't that flight attendant in the movie airport?...and the priest?...and the diabled child?..flight 103, sounds like an accident waiting to happen..let me off of this damn plaaaane..we're all gonna diiiiiee!!'
Then it taxis onto the runway.
Then it taxis onto the runway.
Quoting Kreskin
It must be, I had my epiphany on it... that and the pollution.
I agree. Flying is the work of the devil.
Time Out
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June 12th, 2007, 11:43 PM
And watching that show nailed that down tight.
It scared the bejeevers outta me.
They allowed me to watch it and I flipped out......
wonder if kids today could actually get that scared over that...but man that was a nightmare.
Quoting Kreskin
With Will Shatner...I wasn't allowed up that late back in the day when kids hit the deck at 7 o'clock.
Good thing you didn't see that Twilight Zone character ripping apart the engine.
And watching that show nailed that down tight.
It scared the bejeevers outta me.
They allowed me to watch it and I flipped out......
wonder if kids today could actually get that scared over that...but man that was a nightmare.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 12th, 2007, 11:46 PM
Quoting DocDred
You know its a good horror movie if you are frightened of going to get a glass of milk - in broad daylight. I think its pretty easy to terrorize young'uns.
With Will Shatner...I wasn't allowed up that late back in the day when kids hit the deck at 7 o'clock.
And watching that show nailed that down tight.
It scared the bejeevers outta me.
They allowed me to watch it and I flipped out......
wonder if kids today could actually get that scared over that...but man that was a nightmare.
And watching that show nailed that down tight.
It scared the bejeevers outta me.
They allowed me to watch it and I flipped out......
wonder if kids today could actually get that scared over that...but man that was a nightmare.
Time Out
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June 12th, 2007, 11:57 PM
If you have come to an atheist's point of looking at things , why ponder such things as jesus ,from an atheist point of view.
Have you not found freedom from the bible?
Quoting Niflmir
Getting back to your original post my original point.
You know its a good horror movie if you are frightened of going to get a glass of milk - in broad daylight. I think its pretty easy to terrorize young'uns.
If you have come to an atheist's point of looking at things , why ponder such things as jesus ,from an atheist point of view.
Have you not found freedom from the bible?
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,322
Location: Vancouver Island
Location: Vancouver Island
June 13th, 2007, 01:21 AM
Quoting DocDred
I am an atheist, didn't you notice in between the brackets?
Yeah but for an Atheist to be actually ponderin that sort of line of thinking...hmmmmmm...are you sure you are an atheist....*said more like a white guy*
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June 13th, 2007, 08:55 AM
But I could tell you were not talking like a die hard evagelical crusader.
Look, I was an atheist as well...happiest damn days of my life I might add.
Well part of me was happy for the freedom I talked about.
I usually respond to religous/ philosophy topics with a ton of baggage running in the background/kinda like microsoft vista LOL!!!!!or worse yet an IBM computer...I'm not a teky so I'm just playing the fool there.
I have practised many religions.All of them ending with a sense of freedom when I put them down.
I found this great Alchemy forum with a particular owner who's way of interprating the bible is amazing....Jesus to him and many there, is nothing more but an Alchemical Master. There are 2 sides to Holy Alchemy, inner work, and lab work. The lab work is effected by the person doing the work and the results are always different for each Alchemist, some subtle others not.
They learn from this to help them with their inner work during meditation....
You know I hope did not offend Niflmir.Or worse yet slight him.This is just my way of jumping to the chase.
d
Quoting talloola
well...no. I am an atheist, didn't you notice in between the brackets?
But I could tell you were not talking like a die hard evagelical crusader.
Look, I was an atheist as well...happiest damn days of my life I might add.
Well part of me was happy for the freedom I talked about.
I usually respond to religous/ philosophy topics with a ton of baggage running in the background/kinda like microsoft vista LOL!!!!!or worse yet an IBM computer...I'm not a teky so I'm just playing the fool there.
I have practised many religions.All of them ending with a sense of freedom when I put them down.
I found this great Alchemy forum with a particular owner who's way of interprating the bible is amazing....Jesus to him and many there, is nothing more but an Alchemical Master. There are 2 sides to Holy Alchemy, inner work, and lab work. The lab work is effected by the person doing the work and the results are always different for each Alchemist, some subtle others not.
They learn from this to help them with their inner work during meditation....
You know I hope did not offend Niflmir.Or worse yet slight him.This is just my way of jumping to the chase.
d
June 13th, 2007, 09:30 AM
Hmmm.
Interesting post Niflmir. I'm not going to get into arguments about the validity of the texts, if that's alright with you. But, working on the assumption that we're addressing the issue from a Biblical standpoint, as it's all we have to base our opinions on, I have a couple thoughts.
The first thing that comes to my mind is that Jesus was not necessarily a God on Earth in the way we think of the concept. Jesus could have been more akin to, shall we say, a conduit. Yes, He performed all those mighty acts, but, was the power to do them His, directly His, in His possession on Earth? or was it merely a power he was allowed to tap into?
Because it seems to me that the classic line from the Bible, 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?' would imply that all that power He was so used to having access to was gone.
My second thought is that, he hung on that cross, watching his family and friends as they watched him suffer and die. The people I've seen die slow deaths, fear their death less than they fear for their family's wellbeing. They put on a brave face, and do their best to make sure their families are put at ease. I don't see where Christ was any different than any other person I know, in how he feared the repurcussions of his fate. If you read the Bible account, there's little difference between the death he knew was coming, and the death my aunt knew was coming from cancer. There's time to make your peace with it, time to mentally brace yourself. I don't think it made my aunt's death any less of a human death. And I don't think it makes Christ's any less of one either.
Thanks for the thought provoking post.
Hmmm.
Interesting post Niflmir. I'm not going to get into arguments about the validity of the texts, if that's alright with you. But, working on the assumption that we're addressing the issue from a Biblical standpoint, as it's all we have to base our opinions on, I have a couple thoughts.
The first thing that comes to my mind is that Jesus was not necessarily a God on Earth in the way we think of the concept. Jesus could have been more akin to, shall we say, a conduit. Yes, He performed all those mighty acts, but, was the power to do them His, directly His, in His possession on Earth? or was it merely a power he was allowed to tap into?
Because it seems to me that the classic line from the Bible, 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?' would imply that all that power He was so used to having access to was gone.
My second thought is that, he hung on that cross, watching his family and friends as they watched him suffer and die. The people I've seen die slow deaths, fear their death less than they fear for their family's wellbeing. They put on a brave face, and do their best to make sure their families are put at ease. I don't see where Christ was any different than any other person I know, in how he feared the repurcussions of his fate. If you read the Bible account, there's little difference between the death he knew was coming, and the death my aunt knew was coming from cancer. There's time to make your peace with it, time to mentally brace yourself. I don't think it made my aunt's death any less of a human death. And I don't think it makes Christ's any less of one either.
Thanks for the thought provoking post.
Time Out
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June 13th, 2007, 09:46 AM
so karrie refocuses us back to the actual topic.
From a "literal" Biblical perspective, for the sake of focusing on what we all know is common Christian understanding of the Bible, here goes...again this is not my view...
The point of this Half Son of God Half Son of Man,(plz note respect with caps)was to die for our sins and suffer in a humanly way as massivley as possible. The fact He held on to not miraclizing the pain away was a sign of God's love for the human race.......yikes i might just have helped the evangelicals......
As for fear of death, not cause of my mental health i might add, I do not fear death.
I don't...I don't know, maybe cause I still have this reincarnation life goes on forever deal on the hard drive pulsing away .....Maybe if i was a true atheist I would fear death....
well maybe not fear it so much as due to clinging onto all the things I have here and the loss of those things and people is a lil much to handle....
Hey question to die hard atheists...can you be one if you and believe in reincarnation.
so karrie refocuses us back to the actual topic.
From a "literal" Biblical perspective, for the sake of focusing on what we all know is common Christian understanding of the Bible, here goes...again this is not my view...
The point of this Half Son of God Half Son of Man,(plz note respect with caps)was to die for our sins and suffer in a humanly way as massivley as possible. The fact He held on to not miraclizing the pain away was a sign of God's love for the human race.......yikes i might just have helped the evangelicals......
As for fear of death, not cause of my mental health i might add, I do not fear death.
I don't...I don't know, maybe cause I still have this reincarnation life goes on forever deal on the hard drive pulsing away .....Maybe if i was a true atheist I would fear death....
well maybe not fear it so much as due to clinging onto all the things I have here and the loss of those things and people is a lil much to handle....
Hey question to die hard atheists...can you be one if you and believe in reincarnation.
