Genius
Posts: 777 
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
March 12th, 2008, 02:38 PM
M't:26:38:
Then saith he unto them,
My soul is exceeding sorrowful,
even unto death:
tarry ye here,
and watch with me.
M't:26:39:
And he went a little further,
and fell on his face,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if it be possible,
let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will,
but as thou wilt.
M't:26:42:
He went away again the second time,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if this cup may not pass away from me,
except I drink it,
thy will be done.
M't:26:44:
And he left them,
and went away again,
and prayed the third time,
saying the same words.
Heb:7:12: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
If Jesus had the full authority from God to do all that He 'wished' to do Satan would have been toasted right then and there. What Christ did have permission to do was to include those who were not yet included in salvation. Which He did, Jews and Gentiles could now be called God's people.
Quoting Niflmir
It wasn't an act, I'm not quite sure of all the little details of the 'why' but it probably caught Satan off-guard, even though he knew it was already written that it would happen.
Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins. Now, it must be a very real death to have any meaning. If his suffering is an act, then he is merely mocking our condition or at the very least Jesus's crucifixion would be rendered meaningless: he could have simply told us in sincerity that he was going to absolve us. If the death was an act than it was not a sacrifice and the son of god was not sacrificed for the sins of man, more like a pin prick: the nuisance of taking on an avatar. Simply put, Jesus must die a real, human death.
Quoting Niflmir
In the garden before He was taken by the guards He was sweating blood, that would seem to me that He was more than a little anxious about what He knew was coming. These verses would also indicate some concern.
Yet, to die a human death, you must fear the loss of life. Sure there are some people that go running to their death for reasons of glory but a reasonable person would deem that a sort of suicide. Furthermore, none of us really has the certainty of "a life everlasting" or of reincarnation, there could be nothing but a grave, or worse: eternal damnation. Furthermore, no reasonable person sees any meaning in death. Although "the meaning of life" is nebulous at best, helping the weak, spending time with family and friends, taking pride in our creations, and seeing the next sunset are all things that give us meaning of sorts. Death, it serves no immediate purpose to look forward to and life will always flee from death so long as it has the strength.
M't:26:38:
Then saith he unto them,
My soul is exceeding sorrowful,
even unto death:
tarry ye here,
and watch with me.
M't:26:39:
And he went a little further,
and fell on his face,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if it be possible,
let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will,
but as thou wilt.
M't:26:42:
He went away again the second time,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if this cup may not pass away from me,
except I drink it,
thy will be done.
M't:26:44:
And he left them,
and went away again,
and prayed the third time,
saying the same words.
Quoting Niflmir
He couldn't do that and still be obedient to the prophecies God had already given. That is why God sent Him instead of 'just another Prophet', perfect obedience and Christ is the only one who ever has been perfect in that respect. By sending Him it was a shoe-in that the prophecies would be fulfilled to the letter.
The supposed miracles that Jesus performed: walking on water, turning water to wine and bread to fish, quelling a storm, making a fig tree die, curing the sick, and banishing demons all point towards Jesus being deific. Yet in his godliness, he could take himself down from the cross. He could smite those who would crucify him like the people of Soddom and Gemorra. Jesus has the certainty of a life everlasting by verily knowing that he is the son of God and therefore immortal. Also being God, Jesus would know that his death would serve the greatest purpose of all: the absolution of sin in humankind.
Quoting Niflmir
Christ was sent to earth by God, He didn't come with full power from God. It was only after the cross that He could baptize people with the Holy Spirit, He never did that before the cross. By His own blood sacrifice He became the High Priest to all of mankind. That death allowed for a change in how could be called His people and a change in Law.
So to me, there is an apparent conflict between Jesus being a God on Earth, and Jesus dying a human death. Since with a snap of his fingers he could have, as he was alleged to have done before, performed a miracle, his death was at best a suicide, a mock sacrifice.
Heb:7:12: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Quoting Niflmir
If you were sent on a mission that had certain specific things that were to be accomplished, even in a certain order, and you changed anything would that mission be a success or a failure?
To me, an atheist, that is a simple and manifest conflict. With the power to bend the laws of physics I would never die a real death. I would have to choose the hour of my own death. With the knowledge of a greater life waiting for me through my own death, I would simply be en par with a very unpleasant operation. Only by not having these powers at my disposal do I die a human death. Thus I pose the dichotomy: either Jesus was God on Earth, or he died a human death, not both.
If Jesus had the full authority from God to do all that He 'wished' to do Satan would have been toasted right then and there. What Christ did have permission to do was to include those who were not yet included in salvation. Which He did, Jews and Gentiles could now be called God's people.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,872
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
March 14th, 2008, 01:43 AM
Humanity was created with a condition to where only the creator could remove it.
That condition was spiritual death.
The only way possible for mankind to not die spiritually, it must meet the requirements for spiritual life.
Being that mankind "was" created, it could of its own accord do absolutely nothing to recreate its self, or should I rather say, be born again, but this time for life instead of unto death.
Jesus then had the power over those conditions by which mankind had not as a whole had which, led mankind to death spiritually.
Being that God, the creator, was the only one to overcome its own requirements for being in the flesh, becomes flesh Him self as Jesus.
But must meet all of His own conditions, pay the price of spiritual death and absolve all mankind from that condition.
Yes, He hat the power to step down from the cross, but if He would of, then He would have been useless to us, for He alone would have been saved, and we still be death spiritually.
He therefore had to consume all sin, by consuming meaning, to take all sin of mankind upon Himself, accept the spiritual death clause, and die the worlds greatest *****, because He loved the world, meaning His creation so much that He gave Himself for it in our stead.
Again, you or I nor any great person apart from God himself, (Jesus) could save mankind from eternal death, for it was something that we just had no control over.
Now, perhaps, I say perhaps if my explanation would maybe make a little dent in your understanding of why Jesus not act as God in the flesh, then perhaps there is still hope.
Peace>>>AJ
Quote:
Not understanding the death and sacrifice of Jesus is the reason for your statement.
Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins. Now, it must be a very real death to have any meaning. If his suffering is an act, then he is merely mocking our condition or at the very least Jesus's crucifixion would be rendered meaningless: he could have simply told us in sincerity that he was going to absolve us. If the death was an act than it was not a sacrifice and the son of god was not sacrificed for the sins of man, more like a pin prick: the nuisance of taking on an avatar. Simply put, Jesus must die a real, human death.>>>Niflmir
Humanity was created with a condition to where only the creator could remove it.
That condition was spiritual death.
The only way possible for mankind to not die spiritually, it must meet the requirements for spiritual life.
Being that mankind "was" created, it could of its own accord do absolutely nothing to recreate its self, or should I rather say, be born again, but this time for life instead of unto death.
Jesus then had the power over those conditions by which mankind had not as a whole had which, led mankind to death spiritually.
Being that God, the creator, was the only one to overcome its own requirements for being in the flesh, becomes flesh Him self as Jesus.
But must meet all of His own conditions, pay the price of spiritual death and absolve all mankind from that condition.
Yes, He hat the power to step down from the cross, but if He would of, then He would have been useless to us, for He alone would have been saved, and we still be death spiritually.
He therefore had to consume all sin, by consuming meaning, to take all sin of mankind upon Himself, accept the spiritual death clause, and die the worlds greatest *****, because He loved the world, meaning His creation so much that He gave Himself for it in our stead.
Again, you or I nor any great person apart from God himself, (Jesus) could save mankind from eternal death, for it was something that we just had no control over.
Now, perhaps, I say perhaps if my explanation would maybe make a little dent in your understanding of why Jesus not act as God in the flesh, then perhaps there is still hope.
Peace>>>AJ
