A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118 
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 13th, 2007, 10:03 AM
Don't worry Doc, no offense taken. As for the reason I ponder this sort of stuff, it is proactive really. For some Christians, converting and lobbying for enforced morality are part of the dogma. If they just stuck to the mysteries of life and the wonderment of it, I would be fine with it, but I drive down highways and see anti-abortion posters that basically portray abortionists as murderers. There is a special allowance written into the hate laws that allow churches to break them for the purposes of bigotry against homosexuals. There is a needless drive to prevent us from "playing god", to stop us from cutting edge medical research. Babies are dying because parents claim religious freedom and refuse to give them transfusions.
Like I said, the mysteries of life are great, I am a physicists, its my livelihood to bring some of them to light. The moral supremacy is terrible, and I feel the need to pull out some of its teeth.
Thanks Karrie. But even if he did have access to Godly powers at one point, for instance when he chose Judas Iscariot knowing Judas would betray him, he was in essence choosing the hour of his own demise. If you were terminally ill, fearing for your wellbeing and not wanting your family to see you in so much pain that you booked a ticket to the Netherlands and an appointment with a euthanasist, you would probably tell your family. Again, Jesus knew he would be resurrected, so he knew he would have the chance to comfort his family, which he did when they came to see his empty tomb. My grandfather recently died too, my aunt as well. Both of them knew it was coming. I can see your point that knowing your death is impending doesn't make it less of a death, but knowing with certainty when it will happen and how it will happen, and knowing with certainty that a life greater than this life on Earth awaits you through it would take a large part of the sting off it. My aunt did not die knowing that there was a place waiting for her, nor my grandfather. For me, that's the kicker.
Cheers.
Don't worry Doc, no offense taken. As for the reason I ponder this sort of stuff, it is proactive really. For some Christians, converting and lobbying for enforced morality are part of the dogma. If they just stuck to the mysteries of life and the wonderment of it, I would be fine with it, but I drive down highways and see anti-abortion posters that basically portray abortionists as murderers. There is a special allowance written into the hate laws that allow churches to break them for the purposes of bigotry against homosexuals. There is a needless drive to prevent us from "playing god", to stop us from cutting edge medical research. Babies are dying because parents claim religious freedom and refuse to give them transfusions.
Like I said, the mysteries of life are great, I am a physicists, its my livelihood to bring some of them to light. The moral supremacy is terrible, and I feel the need to pull out some of its teeth.
Thanks Karrie. But even if he did have access to Godly powers at one point, for instance when he chose Judas Iscariot knowing Judas would betray him, he was in essence choosing the hour of his own demise. If you were terminally ill, fearing for your wellbeing and not wanting your family to see you in so much pain that you booked a ticket to the Netherlands and an appointment with a euthanasist, you would probably tell your family. Again, Jesus knew he would be resurrected, so he knew he would have the chance to comfort his family, which he did when they came to see his empty tomb. My grandfather recently died too, my aunt as well. Both of them knew it was coming. I can see your point that knowing your death is impending doesn't make it less of a death, but knowing with certainty when it will happen and how it will happen, and knowing with certainty that a life greater than this life on Earth awaits you through it would take a large part of the sting off it. My aunt did not die knowing that there was a place waiting for her, nor my grandfather. For me, that's the kicker.
Cheers.
June 13th, 2007, 10:08 AM
Quoting Niflmir
But again, Christ cried out on the cross, asking His father why He had forsaken Him. That doesn't sound like the act of a God or a man who is sure of His place after death.
My aunt did not die knowing that there was a place waiting for her, nor my grandfather. For me, that's the kicker.
Cheers.
Cheers.
June 13th, 2007, 10:13 AM
Another thing that makes me curious Niflmir.
If Christ was merely tapping into God's higher power, then, how many of His actions were His own, and how many were steered? Plenty of people, every day, think they are making decisions out of their own free will, not realizing that heredity, environment, and instinct are guiding their choices. How much of Christ's journey would have been guided similarily by God, with Christ not making fully conscious choices in the matter?
Another thing that makes me curious Niflmir.
If Christ was merely tapping into God's higher power, then, how many of His actions were His own, and how many were steered? Plenty of people, every day, think they are making decisions out of their own free will, not realizing that heredity, environment, and instinct are guiding their choices. How much of Christ's journey would have been guided similarily by God, with Christ not making fully conscious choices in the matter?
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 13th, 2007, 10:17 AM
As for fearing death, no one fears death like they fear a madman with a knife. But consider hopping on a plane to Amsterdam to get a lethal injection. Consider taking your friends and family with you. If you don't get a slightly queer feeling from that, the feeling of unfinished business and laughs not had, if you don't feel that then I assume you didn't think about it enough. <snicker>
As for reincarnation, if you believe in some physical mechanism that gives rise to consciousness, and you believe in conservation of energy. Then you can infer that much like the atoms of your body will become something else, so too will the elements of your mind. But your memories will be gone, there will no longer be an I.
Quoting DocDred
It is the literal perspective that my argument is meant to dig into. If any one of us on our death bed had the powers of a god then we would use them. If Jesus had those powers and did not use them, he was at best pretending to be human. The pain a trifling thing that he could have inflicted upon himself many times worse over. That is the very essence of the dichotomy, a god cannot die a human death without allowing it. We do not allow cancer to kill us, though we know it is coming, it overtakes us as we seek to fight it. Dying by crucifixion is a slow process. Your arms pull on your rib cage and crush your lungs, you pull yourself up by the spikes in your hands so that you can breath air. Your back drags up the roughly hewn wood sending splinters deep into your skin. Each breath you take is painful and deliberate, and can only be done while conscious. All the people I know would desperately take any means to escape that, that is why torture is so good at getting false confessions. Jesus on the cross could not have been an avatar if that death was not to be a suicide.
so karrie refocuses us back to the actual topic.
From a "literal" Biblical perspective, for the sake of focusing on what we all know is common Christian understanding of the Bible, here goes...again this is not my view...
The point of this Half Son of God Half Son of Man,(plz note respect with caps)was to die for our sins and suffer in a humanly way as massivley as possible. The fact He held on to not miraclizing the pain away was a sign of God's love for the human race.......yikes i might just have helped the evangelicals......
As for fear of death, not cause of my mental health i might add, I do not fear death.
I don't...I don't know, maybe cause I still have this reincarnation life goes on forever deal on the hard drive pulsing away .....Maybe if i was a true atheist I would fear death....
well maybe not fear it so much as due to clinging onto all the things I have here and the loss of those things and people is a lil much to handle....
Hey question to die hard atheists...can you be one if you and believe in reincarnation.
From a "literal" Biblical perspective, for the sake of focusing on what we all know is common Christian understanding of the Bible, here goes...again this is not my view...
The point of this Half Son of God Half Son of Man,(plz note respect with caps)was to die for our sins and suffer in a humanly way as massivley as possible. The fact He held on to not miraclizing the pain away was a sign of God's love for the human race.......yikes i might just have helped the evangelicals......
As for fear of death, not cause of my mental health i might add, I do not fear death.
I don't...I don't know, maybe cause I still have this reincarnation life goes on forever deal on the hard drive pulsing away .....Maybe if i was a true atheist I would fear death....
well maybe not fear it so much as due to clinging onto all the things I have here and the loss of those things and people is a lil much to handle....
Hey question to die hard atheists...can you be one if you and believe in reincarnation.
As for fearing death, no one fears death like they fear a madman with a knife. But consider hopping on a plane to Amsterdam to get a lethal injection. Consider taking your friends and family with you. If you don't get a slightly queer feeling from that, the feeling of unfinished business and laughs not had, if you don't feel that then I assume you didn't think about it enough. <snicker>
As for reincarnation, if you believe in some physical mechanism that gives rise to consciousness, and you believe in conservation of energy. Then you can infer that much like the atoms of your body will become something else, so too will the elements of your mind. But your memories will be gone, there will no longer be an I.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 13th, 2007, 10:21 AM
Quoting karrie
True enough, but I think few Christians would really want to accept the idea that Jesus was less than God. God in the Flesh is how they usually say. A muslim would accept that God acted through Jesus, but I always felt Christians felt more than that. At the end of the day if people simply thought of Jesus as a prophet, I would be happy with that. If you believe that, then I think that is fantastic. I wonder only if the church believes that.
Another thing that makes me curious Niflmir.
If Christ was merely tapping into God's higher power, then, how many of His actions were His own, and how many were steered? Plenty of people, every day, think they are making decisions out of their own free will, not realizing that heredity, environment, and instinct are guiding their choices. How much of Christ's journey would have been guided similarily by God, with Christ not making fully conscious choices in the matter?
If Christ was merely tapping into God's higher power, then, how many of His actions were His own, and how many were steered? Plenty of people, every day, think they are making decisions out of their own free will, not realizing that heredity, environment, and instinct are guiding their choices. How much of Christ's journey would have been guided similarily by God, with Christ not making fully conscious choices in the matter?
June 13th, 2007, 10:31 AM
Quoting Niflmir
I believe Jesus was more than a prophet. I believe Jesus was the Son of God, a vessel for His power. But, in order to truly fulfill His role, and suffer for humanity, that power had to be absent during his crucifixion.
True enough, but I think few Christians would really want to accept the idea that Jesus was less than God. God in the Flesh is how they usually say. A muslim would accept that God acted through Jesus, but I always felt Christians felt more than that. At the end of the day if people simply thought of Jesus as a prophet, I would be happy with that. If you believe that, then I think that is fantastic. I wonder only if the church believes that.
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
June 13th, 2007, 10:36 AM
lot to think about before replying at this point.....
can I toss into the mix karrie, that it is becoming more and more historically popular the Jesus was elevated to God status by Emperor Constantine
lot to think about before replying at this point.....
can I toss into the mix karrie, that it is becoming more and more historically popular the Jesus was elevated to God status by Emperor Constantine
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
June 13th, 2007, 10:56 AM
Quoting DocDred
Ya know I don't mean to stomp on your belief system karrie...at best it's just stuff that has come to light that makes me think more....
lot to think about before replying at this point.....
can I toss into the mix karrie, that it is becoming more and more historically popular the Jesus was elevated to God status by Emperor Constantine
can I toss into the mix karrie, that it is becoming more and more historically popular the Jesus was elevated to God status by Emperor Constantine
June 13th, 2007, 11:05 AM
Doc, you really don't need to worry about tromping on my belief system. I'm a spiritual person, still seeking the answers. The only time I quit a conversation, is when condescending people try to talk me out of my spirituality. My 'religion' is wide open for debate and questions and (in my opinion, though not the church's), interpretation.
Doc, you really don't need to worry about tromping on my belief system. I'm a spiritual person, still seeking the answers. The only time I quit a conversation, is when condescending people try to talk me out of my spirituality. My 'religion' is wide open for debate and questions and (in my opinion, though not the church's), interpretation.
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
June 13th, 2007, 11:22 AM
Reincarnation has many views. For years I resorted to a Christian concept of the soul mixed with the idea of it going from one body to another, not unlike the created Atman(soul) in Hindu transmigration theories.
I'm not a Buddhist presently although some of the theroies are sort off part of me.
The Buddhist view is more shall we say in line with physics...which you are so this should be real interesting......
Unlike the created permanent soul there is nothing like that in Buddhism.
We are all basically mind. When we, our bodies, this I you refered to, dies, that mind becomes part of what it actually always is. Part of everything, mind.No change there.
What does continue if you will:
The actions that have been created by lets say dave and their causual effects are all that are left of dave .Their future manifestation due to an unbelievable eternity of the same process will determine the new dave. that could take any life form .
So It's kinda hard to see but there is no real "I". Just this ongoing set of energies that somehow come together in a human being or animal, becoming sort of davish in whatever form it becomes.
really reaching here>It is destined(??) from causes in the past. But is able to create it's own destiny (??)
Memory would imply something permanent that exists after death that could hold onto such a thing.
sorry peeps i ain't no dali Lama...I think I just pointed to something though....lol....
*comfortably loses all credability*
dave
Reincarnation has many views. For years I resorted to a Christian concept of the soul mixed with the idea of it going from one body to another, not unlike the created Atman(soul) in Hindu transmigration theories.
I'm not a Buddhist presently although some of the theroies are sort off part of me.
The Buddhist view is more shall we say in line with physics...which you are so this should be real interesting......
Unlike the created permanent soul there is nothing like that in Buddhism.
We are all basically mind. When we, our bodies, this I you refered to, dies, that mind becomes part of what it actually always is. Part of everything, mind.No change there.
What does continue if you will:
The actions that have been created by lets say dave and their causual effects are all that are left of dave .Their future manifestation due to an unbelievable eternity of the same process will determine the new dave. that could take any life form .
So It's kinda hard to see but there is no real "I". Just this ongoing set of energies that somehow come together in a human being or animal, becoming sort of davish in whatever form it becomes.
really reaching here>It is destined(??) from causes in the past. But is able to create it's own destiny (??)
Memory would imply something permanent that exists after death that could hold onto such a thing.
sorry peeps i ain't no dali Lama...I think I just pointed to something though....lol....
*comfortably loses all credability*
dave
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
June 13th, 2007, 11:25 AM
ok gotcha!
ta
d
Quoting karrie
thanks, just well you know we don't know each other , i'm enjoying this convo, Can see you have your own thoughts , ramble ramble,,,,I step on toes without knowing it online sometimes, hate when i do that....Try to pride myself on actually respecting others beliefs.....
Doc, you really don't need to worry about tromping on my belief system. I'm a spiritual person, still seeking the answers. The only time I quit a conversation, is when condescending people try to talk me out of my spirituality. My 'religion' is wide open for debate and questions and (in my opinion, though not the church's), interpretation.
ok gotcha!
ta
d
June 13th, 2007, 11:32 AM
I do believe in miracles. Have seen them first hand. I do believe in some greater good, even if it is reduced to just universal consciousness.
I do believe that Jesus lived and Im willing to believe he died for the sins of others. I believe he did so because he loved mankind and believed his suffering would cause them all to be saved. I believe such a love exists where someone would willingly endure what he is said to endure for the sake of others. I truly believe in that sort of love and commitment.
I stop short of believing Jesus was more than any other man though. I don't believe he was special from the beginning in any sort of way except that he had the capacity for this extrodinary love. Those with that love, in my opinion, are miracles. I praise him for his sacrifice but I would (and do) also praise all those with that sort of uncommon love; the cop who gets shot trying to capture a criminal, the firefighter who gives his life to save a child from a burning building, the folks who donate thier organs while still living, etc.
A recent example of this...A good friend has a son who just turned 15. His grandmother gave him $100 for his birthday. This boy, unprompted by any other person, took half his money and bought a good pair of shoes for a friend who had only worn out ones. For me, this boy is equal to Jesus.
I do believe in miracles. Have seen them first hand. I do believe in some greater good, even if it is reduced to just universal consciousness.
I do believe that Jesus lived and Im willing to believe he died for the sins of others. I believe he did so because he loved mankind and believed his suffering would cause them all to be saved. I believe such a love exists where someone would willingly endure what he is said to endure for the sake of others. I truly believe in that sort of love and commitment.
I stop short of believing Jesus was more than any other man though. I don't believe he was special from the beginning in any sort of way except that he had the capacity for this extrodinary love. Those with that love, in my opinion, are miracles. I praise him for his sacrifice but I would (and do) also praise all those with that sort of uncommon love; the cop who gets shot trying to capture a criminal, the firefighter who gives his life to save a child from a burning building, the folks who donate thier organs while still living, etc.
A recent example of this...A good friend has a son who just turned 15. His grandmother gave him $100 for his birthday. This boy, unprompted by any other person, took half his money and bought a good pair of shoes for a friend who had only worn out ones. For me, this boy is equal to Jesus.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
June 13th, 2007, 11:43 AM
Quoting DocDred
Keep in mind that Buddhism is formed from Hinduism, but buddhists believe that they have found the way to escape the cycle of Karma. They do in fact have a notion of a permanent soul, although much like Christianity it depends which sect you talk to.
Unlike the created permanent soul there is nothing like that in Buddhism.
We are all basically mind. When we, our bodies, this I you refered to, dies, that mind becomes part of what it actually always is. Part of everything, mind.No change there.
We are all basically mind. When we, our bodies, this I you refered to, dies, that mind becomes part of what it actually always is. Part of everything, mind.No change there.
Quoting triedit
Are you familiar with the Humean concept of a miracle? Basically any rational person will find the idea that they are hallucinating more likely than the violation of a law of nature. Anything short of a violation of a law of nature is a mere coincidence. Of course Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow... so, what can I say?
I do believe in miracles. Have seen them first hand. I do believe in some greater good, even if it is reduced to just universal consciousness.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,535
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Location: Calgary, Alberta
June 13th, 2007, 06:59 PM
According to the faithful (a credulous lot, I'll grant you) Jesus died for our sins. Except, according to the faithful (not a critical lot, I'll grant you), Jesus went on to eternal life on the throne beside the Big Guy.
So he didn't die, except he died for our sins, by not dying, when he died on the cross, where he didn't die.
Man am I ever confused.
Pangloss
According to the faithful (a credulous lot, I'll grant you) Jesus died for our sins. Except, according to the faithful (not a critical lot, I'll grant you), Jesus went on to eternal life on the throne beside the Big Guy.
So he didn't die, except he died for our sins, by not dying, when he died on the cross, where he didn't die.
Man am I ever confused.
Pangloss
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
June 14th, 2007, 03:41 PM
From a Buddhist perspective the Gods are born and die. Say that to a Hindu and watch their face twitch.
I believe modern day Hinduism was shaped by the Buddha's teachings. In the 13th century the Hindu's claimed Buddha their own by insisting He was an emmanation of Lord Vishnu. Totally political, and inane from a Buddhist point of view. I have Hindu friends and don't even come close to discussing this point for the damage it would cause our friendship.....funny thing religion.
"Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow", not such a bad way to live for you would be forced to live each day to it's fullest and take nothing for granted.
By the way ,I think this is my sanity thread.
Dave
Quoting Niflmir
Buddha was born into a strict Vedic culture. He definatly did not discuss God the creator although there are parrables about Him discussing Vedic Gods.
Keep in mind that Buddhism is formed from Hinduism, but buddhists believe that they have found the way to escape the cycle of Karma. They do in fact have a notion of a permanent soul, although much like Christianity it depends which sect you talk to.
Are you familiar with the Humean concept of a miracle? Basically any rational person will find the idea that they are hallucinating more likely than the violation of a law of nature. Anything short of a violation of a law of nature is a mere coincidence. Of course Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow... so, what can I say?
Are you familiar with the Humean concept of a miracle? Basically any rational person will find the idea that they are hallucinating more likely than the violation of a law of nature. Anything short of a violation of a law of nature is a mere coincidence. Of course Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow... so, what can I say?
From a Buddhist perspective the Gods are born and die. Say that to a Hindu and watch their face twitch.
I believe modern day Hinduism was shaped by the Buddha's teachings. In the 13th century the Hindu's claimed Buddha their own by insisting He was an emmanation of Lord Vishnu. Totally political, and inane from a Buddhist point of view. I have Hindu friends and don't even come close to discussing this point for the damage it would cause our friendship.....funny thing religion.
"Hume also pointed out that it was irrational to believe the sun would rise tomorrow", not such a bad way to live for you would be forced to live each day to it's fullest and take nothing for granted.
By the way ,I think this is my sanity thread.
Dave
A Mad Mulligan
Posts: 2,771
Videos: 3
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
Videos: 3
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
June 14th, 2007, 03:53 PM
Quoting Pangloss
Crystal man crystal.
According to the faithful (a credulous lot, I'll grant you) Jesus died for our sins. Except, according to the faithful (not a critical lot, I'll grant you), Jesus went on to eternal life on the throne beside the Big Guy.
So he didn't die, except he died for our sins, by not dying, when he died on the cross, where he didn't die.
Man am I ever confused.
Pangloss
So he didn't die, except he died for our sins, by not dying, when he died on the cross, where he didn't die.
Man am I ever confused.
Pangloss
Clever Clogs
Posts: 706
March 12th, 2008, 12:26 PM
A Call to Christians
"Pilate promised them to crucify him, but he said within himself: I cannot bear the burden of the sin of killing this [innocent] man; instead, I will release him and he should go out of this city and disappear from the community, and if they ask me about him I shall say to them: I have crucified and buried him. Then he called Jesus Christ, and said to him: I don’t find any cause of death in you, [neither did Herodus find]; so I shall release you, and you should go out of this city to Syria to hide there from them, and if they ask me about you, I shall tell them that I have crucified and buried him. Then he released him and the Christ hid from them. His disciples saw him three days later, and they feared and thought that he was a ghost, but he spoke to them and said: “I am alive as you see, and I am not a ghost as you think. Have you bread?” They gave him bread and fish and he took and ate before them. Then he traveled to Syria and stayed there on the Quasseon Mountain where he hid himself from the Jews. A period of time later, he died and was buried in that high land, while his spirit ascended to heaven to the Paradises."
This is also in the Quran 4: 157The explanation: (They did not slay him, nor crucified him, but a similitude was made for them, and those who differ therein are full of doubt thereof, with no [certain] knowledge, but only conjecture to follow; they slew him not for certain.
But God raised him up to His [neighborhood]; God is All-Mighty, All-Wise.)
The apostle is a savior of those that follow him according his calling them to God alone and to abandon the idolatry and the association of equals or peers with God. He works for the sake of God that sent him and to fulfill the will of his Lord. His suffering is in the way of God; he cannot save the atheist or the associater or the disbeliever.
Quoting Niflmir
Now Jesus was supposed to die a real death, a human death, full of actual suffering and pain to attone for our sins.
Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified. Pilate set him free and released him from prison, and killed someone else who was a murderer [it may be that was Barabbas.] The disciples saw Jesus three days after the event; some of them doubted, and some thought he was a ghost, and he said to them: I am alive, touch me and give me some food, and he ate some fish and honey that they gave to him.
This is mentioned in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 22 and 23.
See this also at our website:
Their Stand Against the ChristThis is mentioned in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 22 and 23.
See this also at our website:
A Call to Christians
"Pilate promised them to crucify him, but he said within himself: I cannot bear the burden of the sin of killing this [innocent] man; instead, I will release him and he should go out of this city and disappear from the community, and if they ask me about him I shall say to them: I have crucified and buried him. Then he called Jesus Christ, and said to him: I don’t find any cause of death in you, [neither did Herodus find]; so I shall release you, and you should go out of this city to Syria to hide there from them, and if they ask me about you, I shall tell them that I have crucified and buried him. Then he released him and the Christ hid from them. His disciples saw him three days later, and they feared and thought that he was a ghost, but he spoke to them and said: “I am alive as you see, and I am not a ghost as you think. Have you bread?” They gave him bread and fish and he took and ate before them. Then he traveled to Syria and stayed there on the Quasseon Mountain where he hid himself from the Jews. A period of time later, he died and was buried in that high land, while his spirit ascended to heaven to the Paradises."
This is also in the Quran 4: 157
و ما قَتَلُوهُ وما صَلَبُوهُ و لكنْ شُبِّهَ لَهم و إنّ الّذينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فيهِ لَفي شكٍّ مِنهُ ما لهم بهِ مِنْ عِلمٍ إلاّ اتّباعَ الظنِّ و ما قَتَلُوهُ يَقيناً . بلْ رَفعَهُ اللهُ إليهِ و كانَ اللهُ عزيزاً حكيماً
But God raised him up to His [neighborhood]; God is All-Mighty, All-Wise.)
The apostle is a savior of those that follow him according his calling them to God alone and to abandon the idolatry and the association of equals or peers with God. He works for the sake of God that sent him and to fulfill the will of his Lord. His suffering is in the way of God; he cannot save the atheist or the associater or the disbeliever.
- The idea of the sacrifice and the suffering; they adapted it from Krishna the Indian.
- And the idea of the "son of God"; they adapted it from the ancient Greek who said their kings were the sons of gods. Jesus called himself the "son of man" in more than seventy sites in the Gospel; but only a possessed or a mad man called him son of God.
