Super Genius
Posts: 1,384 
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 08:46 PM
Those who are looking for literal truths in the Bible or Quran are going to be dissappointed. This includes believers and non-believers alike.
Religion is spirituality organized and turned to doctrine. Spirituality gives you inner calm and the tools to achieve it. Praying before an altar, singing hymns, chanting, spell casting, listening to inspirational words is no different then eastern oriental practices that include mantras and meditation. Positive visualization and happy thoughts can accomplish a lot.
Religion lets you associate with similiar minded folk. It can give a sense of belonging and community.
I find most folk have the biggest issues with the montheistic paths of the Abrahamic traditions that include Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The polytheisms of neo-paganry are more accepting of differences in opinions and practices, so do not have a tendency to inflame folks reactions to be told " This is the way and the only way". Too much eclectism has the effect that folk may think of a pagan path as fluffy bunny territory. The paths of Zen and Tao do not try to preach the ways and words of any one man. Buddhism holds the Buddha up as an example of what can be achieved through perserverance and contemplation of ones actions and thoughts.
Even atheism is a spiritual path.
Those who are looking for literal truths in the Bible or Quran are going to be dissappointed. This includes believers and non-believers alike.
Religion is spirituality organized and turned to doctrine. Spirituality gives you inner calm and the tools to achieve it. Praying before an altar, singing hymns, chanting, spell casting, listening to inspirational words is no different then eastern oriental practices that include mantras and meditation. Positive visualization and happy thoughts can accomplish a lot.
Religion lets you associate with similiar minded folk. It can give a sense of belonging and community.
I find most folk have the biggest issues with the montheistic paths of the Abrahamic traditions that include Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The polytheisms of neo-paganry are more accepting of differences in opinions and practices, so do not have a tendency to inflame folks reactions to be told " This is the way and the only way". Too much eclectism has the effect that folk may think of a pagan path as fluffy bunny territory. The paths of Zen and Tao do not try to preach the ways and words of any one man. Buddhism holds the Buddha up as an example of what can be achieved through perserverance and contemplation of ones actions and thoughts.
Even atheism is a spiritual path.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,061
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 22nd, 2008, 10:07 PM
Atheism thus is not on a "spiritual path" because such a thing has no evidence or proof to support it. Religion relies on "faith" which is wish thinking and fantasy without proof - that is a spiritual path.
Quoting RomSpaceKnight
Absolutely because the authors have no literal truth to offer just as one would expect.
Those who are looking for literal truths in the Bible or Quran are going to be dissappointed. This includes believers and non-believers alike.
Quoting RomSpaceKnight
I agree, however, even more can be accomplished with real world grounding in reality. Flights of fancy and exercises in fantastical thinking without proof are great fun but ultimately, if taken seriously, can be most damaging to civilization and individuals. It's fine to think about witches but if you take the fantasy seriously you might end up burning people. That is the harm in only wish thinking.
Religion is spirituality organized and turned to doctrine. Spirituality gives you inner calm and the tools to achieve it. Praying before an altar, singing hymns, chanting, spell casting, listening to inspirational words is no different then eastern oriental practices that include mantras and meditation. Positive visualization and happy thoughts can accomplish a lot.
Quoting RomSpaceKnight
So does belonging to a bowling league or book reading club but both do far less damage as shown and demonstrated by evidence and history.
Religion lets you associate with similiar minded folk. It can give a sense of belonging and community.
Quoting RomSpaceKnight
Buddhists have committed their fair share of human calamity too and are no different than any other wretched group of wish thinkers. I would invite you to study how Buddhism played a role in Japanese mass murder, or how they supported Nazi fascism, or how Shinto priests and Buddhists were used in recruiting and training suicide bombers in WWII!
I find most folk have the biggest issues with the montheistic paths of the Abrahamic traditions that include Christianity, Islam and Judaism. The polytheisms of neo-paganry are more accepting of differences in opinions and practices, so do not have a tendency to inflame folks reactions to be told " This is the way and the only way". Too much eclectism has the effect that folk may think of a pagan path as fluffy bunny territory. The paths of Zen and Tao do not try to preach the ways and words of any one man. Buddhism holds the Buddha up as an example of what can be achieved through perserverance and contemplation of ones actions and thoughts.
Quoting RomSpaceKnight
Anything can be said to be on the path of such an esoteric metaphor, however, the atheists insistence on proof and evidence instead of relying on wish thinking and fantasy, sets it far apart from any comparison being legitimate. Atheism is on the path of human endeavour while religion is a flight of fancy.
Even atheism is a spiritual path.
Atheism thus is not on a "spiritual path" because such a thing has no evidence or proof to support it. Religion relies on "faith" which is wish thinking and fantasy without proof - that is a spiritual path.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,678 
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 10:25 PM
Right.......athiests don't take ANYTHING on Faith. Keep livin in YOUR fantasy world.
Quoting Scott Free
Atheism thus is not on a "spiritual path" because such a thing has no evidence or proof to support it. Religion relies on "faith" which is wish thinking and fantasy without proof - that is a spiritual path.
Right.......athiests don't take ANYTHING on Faith. Keep livin in YOUR fantasy world.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,061
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 22nd, 2008, 10:32 PM
Quoting gerryh Right.......athiests don't take ANYTHING on Faith. Keep livin in YOUR fantasy world.
A valid argument, however, they have a principle not to do so, whereas religion has the exact opposite principle, in that, religionists must take everything on faith; it is all they have. Though an atheist may take something on faith (like a complicated principle of science he doesn't understand) he can take heart in that the person who discovered it used evidence and peer review to come to the conclusions, which, is a damn sight better than someone talking to a burning bush and bringing clay tablets down from a mountain with words already revealed a thousand years earlier by a god named Horus.
Right.......athiests don't take ANYTHING on Faith. Keep livin in YOUR fantasy world.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,678
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 10:41 PM
"scientists" are the "priests" of the scientific(atheist) religion.
You don't believe what thousands(at least) of Christian Leaders teach about Christ and God, yet you believe what 100's or 1000's of scientists tell you is fact.....know what..... it's still faith...You don't understand it all, so you have "faith" in what the "scientists" tell you. Me........ I have faith in what Christ has told me......and I have faith (less mind you) in what science tells me. Then again, I don't believe science and Christianity are exclusive. That would be partly because of my Catholic upbringing.
"scientists" are the "priests" of the scientific(atheist) religion.
You don't believe what thousands(at least) of Christian Leaders teach about Christ and God, yet you believe what 100's or 1000's of scientists tell you is fact.....know what..... it's still faith...You don't understand it all, so you have "faith" in what the "scientists" tell you. Me........ I have faith in what Christ has told me......and I have faith (less mind you) in what science tells me. Then again, I don't believe science and Christianity are exclusive. That would be partly because of my Catholic upbringing.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,061
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 22nd, 2008, 10:49 PM
I originally began my quest to prove god and his "prophets" were true. My search led to a different conclusion. I am well versed in your mindset.
The scientists you speak about, though less in number, have a system which is vastly superior to the wish thinking required by religion. If you read them carefully and understand their evidence you no longer need faith. It is an amazing and wonderful world my friend, one I would highly recommend.
Quoting gerryh
I read a great deal and inquire into every topic as far as I need searching for the evidence, so I can make a sound argument.
"scientists" are the "priests" of the scientific(atheist) religion.
You don't believe what thousands(at least) of Christian Leaders teach about Christ and God, yet you believe what 100's or 1000's of scientists tell you is fact.....know what..... it's still faith...You don't understand it all, so you have "faith" in what the "scientists" tell you. Me........ I have faith in what Christ has told me......and I have faith (less mind you) in what science tells me. Then again, I don't believe science and Christianity are exclusive. That would be partly because of my Catholic upbringing.
You don't believe what thousands(at least) of Christian Leaders teach about Christ and God, yet you believe what 100's or 1000's of scientists tell you is fact.....know what..... it's still faith...You don't understand it all, so you have "faith" in what the "scientists" tell you. Me........ I have faith in what Christ has told me......and I have faith (less mind you) in what science tells me. Then again, I don't believe science and Christianity are exclusive. That would be partly because of my Catholic upbringing.
I originally began my quest to prove god and his "prophets" were true. My search led to a different conclusion. I am well versed in your mindset.
The scientists you speak about, though less in number, have a system which is vastly superior to the wish thinking required by religion. If you read them carefully and understand their evidence you no longer need faith. It is an amazing and wonderful world my friend, one I would highly recommend.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,678
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 10:58 PM
gee.....this all sounds so familiar.......oh ya...... sounds lke the holy rollers that used to come over to my high school trying to convert all the kids......... but then..... yours isn't a religion.
Quoting Scott Free
I read a great deal and inquire into every topic as far as I need searching for the evidence, so I can make a sound argument.
I originally began my quest to prove god and his "prophets" were true. My search led to a different conclusion. I am well versed in your mindset.
The scientists you speak about, though less in number, have a system which is vastly superior to the wish thinking required by religion. If you read them carefully and understand their evidence you no longer need faith. It is an amazing and wonderful world my friend, one I would highly recommend.
I originally began my quest to prove god and his "prophets" were true. My search led to a different conclusion. I am well versed in your mindset.
The scientists you speak about, though less in number, have a system which is vastly superior to the wish thinking required by religion. If you read them carefully and understand their evidence you no longer need faith. It is an amazing and wonderful world my friend, one I would highly recommend.
gee.....this all sounds so familiar.......oh ya...... sounds lke the holy rollers that used to come over to my high school trying to convert all the kids......... but then..... yours isn't a religion.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,061
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 22nd, 2008, 11:02 PM
Quoting gerryh
No it isn't. I invite you to examine the facts and have faith in nothing. Let your intellect, heart and mind be your guide. Perhaps you can free yourself from vain imaginings sooner than latter.
gee.....this all sounds so familiar.......oh ya...... sounds lke the holy rollers that used to come over to my high school trying to convert all the kids......... but then..... yours isn't a religion.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,678
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 11:05 PM
Yes it is.....exactley..... the only thing missing is you telling me that you'll "pray for me"...LOL....
Quoting Scott Free
No it isn't. I invite you to examine the facts and have faith in nothing. Let your intellect, heart and mind be your guide. Perhaps you can free yourself from vain imaginings sooner than latter.
Yes it is.....exactley..... the only thing missing is you telling me that you'll "pray for me"...LOL....
Super Genius
Posts: 1,061
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 22nd, 2008, 11:09 PM
Quoting gerryh
No, the difference is that I am telling you to be skeptical of everything.
Yes it is.....exactley..... the only thing missing is you telling me that you'll "pray for me"...LOL....
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,678
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
February 22nd, 2008, 11:11 PM
No you're not.....I think maybe you need to rethink what YOU beleive in.
and like I said....I don't find that science and Christianity are exclusive.
Quoting Scott Free
No, the difference is that I am telling you to be skeptical of everything.
No you're not.....I think maybe you need to rethink what YOU beleive in.
and like I said....I don't find that science and Christianity are exclusive.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,061
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 22nd, 2008, 11:16 PM
Quoting gerryh
and like I said....I don't find that science and Christianity are exclusive.
Of coarse, because you doubt. That's good.
and like I said....I don't find that science and Christianity are exclusive.
Genius
Posts: 821
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
February 22nd, 2008, 11:27 PM
Quoting Scott Free
Haven't there been "X" number of drugs over the last 7 decades that science gave the 'green light' to that no longer are recommended because of many bad side-effects including the biggest side-effect of all, death.
The scientists you speak about, though less in number, have a system which is vastly superior to the wish thinking required by religion. If you read them carefully and understand their evidence you no longer need faith. It is an amazing and wonderful world my friend, one I would highly recommend.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,061
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 22nd, 2008, 11:34 PM
Quoting MHz
Sure, and isn't it great that they aren't being used anymore; instead of people using them on "faith?"
Haven't there been "X" number of drugs over the last 7 decades that science gave the 'green light' to that no longer are recommended because of many bad side-effects including the biggest side-effect of all, death.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
February 23rd, 2008, 01:16 AM
The big thing missing here is love one for another regardless of beliefs?
That transcends all beliefs whether religious or scientific.
Religion alone without science is like science alone without religion.
Science is as Eve, and religion is as Adam, both are married to form a living soul, of which there is a marriage of material, Earthly, (Eve) and spiritual, (Adam).
If there is no love between the two, then that kingdom falls.
Adam then must bring Eve into conformity of the spiritual as the spiritual head.
Note: Male and female are both Adam (Mankind), so that Eve is of equal representation as Adam to the spiritual.
Peace>>>AJ
The big thing missing here is love one for another regardless of beliefs?
That transcends all beliefs whether religious or scientific.
Religion alone without science is like science alone without religion.
Science is as Eve, and religion is as Adam, both are married to form a living soul, of which there is a marriage of material, Earthly, (Eve) and spiritual, (Adam).
If there is no love between the two, then that kingdom falls.
Adam then must bring Eve into conformity of the spiritual as the spiritual head.
Note: Male and female are both Adam (Mankind), so that Eve is of equal representation as Adam to the spiritual.
Peace>>>AJ
Genius
Posts: 821
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
February 23rd, 2008, 11:43 AM
How much scientific research over the last 100 years or so has been focused on better ways to kill other people? What would be the split in the amount of money spent in the world in just the last year, that is based on science already in place or being developed, if the money was divided into things that benefit mankind (cost of manufacturing and not retail sales)and things that have the potential to cause harm to a person?
Nor would it seem that science can go in whatever direction it should go, research is in the direction determined by others, most of the time with profit being not a small factor.
If the good things in science fall in line with serving God, then do the bad things science comes up with fall in line with serving Satan?
http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle....t-cancers.html
How much scientific research has been directed towards this kind of research after it was first published, not much if any.
Quoting Scott Free
Didn't they start using them based on 'faith' that the scientists were correct? How has that changed today, any guarantee that what is deemed safe today (medicine) doesn't get 'pulled off the shelves' in the near future?
Sure, and isn't it great that they aren't being used anymore; instead of people using them on "faith?"
How much scientific research over the last 100 years or so has been focused on better ways to kill other people? What would be the split in the amount of money spent in the world in just the last year, that is based on science already in place or being developed, if the money was divided into things that benefit mankind (cost of manufacturing and not retail sales)and things that have the potential to cause harm to a person?
Nor would it seem that science can go in whatever direction it should go, research is in the direction determined by others, most of the time with profit being not a small factor.
If the good things in science fall in line with serving God, then do the bad things science comes up with fall in line with serving Satan?
http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle....t-cancers.html
How much scientific research has been directed towards this kind of research after it was first published, not much if any.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
February 23rd, 2008, 12:13 PM
Peace>>>AJ
Quote:
All good things come from God. Now what mankind does with them is your answer.
If the good things in science fall in line with serving God, then do the bad things science comes up with fall in line with serving Satan?>>>MHz
Peace>>>AJ
Clever Clogs
Posts: 707
February 23rd, 2008, 01:06 PM
So Prophet Mohammed went back doubting within himself, feeling humiliation; and he said [within himself]: If I were a messenger [i.e. an apostle] and if what I heard from the angel were true, then those people would have converted, resigned and believed me!
Therefore, this aya of the Quran 10: 95-98 was revealed to him; to let him have confidence in himself and to be steadfast in his mission and in order not to hesitate:
The explanation: (94-And if you [Mohammed] are in doubt of that which We have sent down to you, then question those who read the Scripture [that was] before you. The truth, indeed, has come to you from your Lord; so be not of those who waver.
95-And be not of those who say the signs [of revelation] of God are lies, or you will be of those who lose [the prophet-hood.]
96-Surely, those against whom God’s word is pronounced will not believe,
97-Eventhough there comes to them every miracle, till they see the grievous chastisement.)
The interpretation:
(And if you [Mohammed] are in doubt of that) revelation (which We have sent down to you), (then question those) Jews (who read the Scripture [that was] before you) and say to them: Was Moses an angel that came down from heaven? Or was he a human being like you? And were the prophets: angels that came down from heaven? Or were they human beings like you?
So that if they answer you that they were human beings like you, then be certain that you are a messenger (or an apostle) from God, then carry out your duty and warn people, and God will guide whom He will [to guide] and you are not responsible about their guidance.
(The truth, indeed, has come to you from your Lord) and not from the Jinni (or demons) as they claim.
(So be not of those who waver) i.e. of those who doubt, means: Don’t doubt about yourself and don’t feel unable about the mission; because God chooses for it whom He pleases of His servants, and now He has chosen you for it.
(And be not of those who say the signs [of revelation] of God are lies), so that you say it may be from the Jinni (or demons) and [it is] not an angel [that brings it down.]
(Or you will be of those who lose [the prophethood].) So that you will lose the prophethood while God has chosen you for it.
(Surely, those) polytheists and associaters (against whom God’s word) concerning their punishment (is pronounced will not believe, even though there come to them every miracle) means: every miracle which they demand from you (till they see the grievous chastisement) in this World by their killing and falling into captivity, and in the Hereafter in the chastisement of Hell.
But when the revelation of the Quranic sooras [: or chapters] and the signs of revelation to him increased more and more, he then became confident and became sure that he was a messenger to his people; therefore, he started to call his people to the Islam with determination and to warn them with a firm will, paying no attention to their words, and minding not about their mocking till a large number believed in him, then His saying-be exalted- in chapter 2: 285 was revealed:
The explanation: (The messenger [Mohammed] has now believed in that revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers [have also believed.] Each one [of them] believes in God and His angels and His Books [:Scriptures] and His messengers [:apostles], …etc.)
Quoting Scott Free
When the revelation of the Quran was sent down to Mohammed, at the beginning, and he invited his people to the Islam, they refused to convert, and started to mock at him, and said that the one who has brought revelation to you is one of genies [or demons] and not one of angels, and that if God willed to send a messenger, then He would have sent the angels!
he is a lier, a cheat, a murderer, a prostitute of the arts, an ego maniac, and deceiver. His vacant teachings have not enhanced the worlds understanding on one thing even to the smallest degree, but only served to be the fuel for war, hatred and misery.
So Prophet Mohammed went back doubting within himself, feeling humiliation; and he said [within himself]: If I were a messenger [i.e. an apostle] and if what I heard from the angel were true, then those people would have converted, resigned and believed me!
Therefore, this aya of the Quran 10: 95-98 was revealed to him; to let him have confidence in himself and to be steadfast in his mission and in order not to hesitate:
فإنْ كنتَ في شكٍّ مِمّا أَنزَلنا إليكَ فَاسْألِ الذينَ يَقرؤونَ الكتابَ مِنْ قَبلِكَ، لقدْ جاءَكَ الحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فلا تَكونَنَّ مِنَ المُمْتَرينَ (95) و لا تكونَنَّ مِنَ الذينَ كَذّبُوا بآياتِ اللهِ فتكونَ مِنَ الخاسِرِينَ(96) إنَّ الذينَ حَقَّتْ عليهِمْ كلمةُ ربّكَ لا يؤمِنُونَ(97) و لو جاءَتْهم كُلُّ آيةٍ حتّى يَرَوا العذابَ الأليمَ.
The explanation: (94-And if you [Mohammed] are in doubt of that which We have sent down to you, then question those who read the Scripture [that was] before you. The truth, indeed, has come to you from your Lord; so be not of those who waver.
95-And be not of those who say the signs [of revelation] of God are lies, or you will be of those who lose [the prophet-hood.]
96-Surely, those against whom God’s word is pronounced will not believe,
97-Eventhough there comes to them every miracle, till they see the grievous chastisement.)
The interpretation:
(And if you [Mohammed] are in doubt of that) revelation (which We have sent down to you), (then question those) Jews (who read the Scripture [that was] before you) and say to them: Was Moses an angel that came down from heaven? Or was he a human being like you? And were the prophets: angels that came down from heaven? Or were they human beings like you?
So that if they answer you that they were human beings like you, then be certain that you are a messenger (or an apostle) from God, then carry out your duty and warn people, and God will guide whom He will [to guide] and you are not responsible about their guidance.
(The truth, indeed, has come to you from your Lord) and not from the Jinni (or demons) as they claim.
(So be not of those who waver) i.e. of those who doubt, means: Don’t doubt about yourself and don’t feel unable about the mission; because God chooses for it whom He pleases of His servants, and now He has chosen you for it.
(And be not of those who say the signs [of revelation] of God are lies), so that you say it may be from the Jinni (or demons) and [it is] not an angel [that brings it down.]
(Or you will be of those who lose [the prophethood].) So that you will lose the prophethood while God has chosen you for it.
(Surely, those) polytheists and associaters (against whom God’s word) concerning their punishment (is pronounced will not believe, even though there come to them every miracle) means: every miracle which they demand from you (till they see the grievous chastisement) in this World by their killing and falling into captivity, and in the Hereafter in the chastisement of Hell.
But when the revelation of the Quranic sooras [: or chapters] and the signs of revelation to him increased more and more, he then became confident and became sure that he was a messenger to his people; therefore, he started to call his people to the Islam with determination and to warn them with a firm will, paying no attention to their words, and minding not about their mocking till a large number believed in him, then His saying-be exalted- in chapter 2: 285 was revealed:
آمَنَ الرسولُ بما أُنزِلَ إليهِ مِنْ ربِّهِ و المؤمِنونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ باللهِ و ملائكتِهِ و كُتُبِهِ و رُسُلِهِ …إلخ
The explanation: (The messenger [Mohammed] has now believed in that revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers [have also believed.] Each one [of them] believes in God and His angels and His Books [:Scriptures] and His messengers [:apostles], …etc.)
I say: if he was a charlatan, as some claimed, will he say to himself: don't doubt about your prophet-hood? And will he threaten himself that if he doubts then the apostle-hood will be taken from him and the Quran revelation will be curtailed?
That will be impossible, because he was trying to convince people, then will he tell them: I have some doubts concerning it.
And if you say this could be used by him as a trick, I say to you: he never said he doubted, but only recently the late interpreter of the Quran has explained this about the Quran. And when you ask most of the Muslims, they will say to you: Prophet Mohammed never doubted about his prophecy.
Moreover, I shall not reply concerning your transgression on the noble Prophet Mohammed; because all the world know who is Prophet Mohammed; and it only reflects your manner, morale and ethics; and this will be up to God to deal with you accordingly.
eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
