Catholicism's huge decline (everybody welcome)


lieexpsr
#1
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=29948 (external - login to view)

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An index of Catholicism's decline

Posted: December 11, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern





As the Watergate scandal of 1973-1974 diverted attention from the far greater tragedy unfolding in Southeast Asia, so, too, the scandal of predator-priests now afflicting the Catholic Church may be covering up a far greater calamity.
Thirty-seven years after the end of the only church council of the 20th century, the jury has come in with its verdict: Vatican II appears to have been an unrelieved disaster for Roman Catholicism.
Liars may figure, but figures do not lie. Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis has pulled together a slim volume of statistics he has titled Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II.
His findings make prophets of Catholic traditionalists who warned that Vatican II would prove a blunder of historic dimensions, and those same findings expose as foolish and naive those who believed a council could reconcile Catholicism and modernity. When Pope John XXIII threw open the windows of the church, all the poisonous vapors of modernity entered, along with the Devil himself.
Here are Jones' grim statistics of Catholicism's decline:
  • Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
  • Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
  • Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
  • Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
  • Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.
  • Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.
Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.
  • Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.
  • Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.
  • Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.
At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?
Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.
Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway. Jones' statistics tell us the price of appeasement.

----------------------

The only statistic which shows increase is the 20 million in the U.S. which doesn't even keep up with populatioin growth. If there is a small increase since 02 then does it keep up with population growth? If catholicism is growing then it has a lot of growing to do to even get back to 1965 levels. I think it's just a propaganda ploy by the catholic church in order to conceal their losses.
 
Zzarchov
#2
Thats kinda silly, it only counts the USA.

The first world as a whole is declining in both population (native) and religious leanings. Catholocism is growing quite rapidly overall.
 
lieexpsr
#3
And what makes the statistics even more remarkable is that it used to be 3 in 4 attending church in '65 and in '02 it was 1 in 4. That indicates to me that the catholics are cooking the books. The catholic religion is dying and it's because of the dogma in their case. That says that they better smarten up soon. And of course the article tells how they are smartening up a little with relaxed rules on anly number of issues. Constant my ---!
 
darkbeaver
#4
I read a while ago that the Chriatian Fundys were carving huge slices out of the Catholic pie in the traditional soul hunting grounds of central and south America. Competition is good for business, so the overall health of the Christian enterprize is good, which is bad. Apparently it's cheaper for Fundy parents to get thier kids into the sport as the equipment is cheaper in the protesting cults.

In the words of Satan, divide and conquer.
 
Zzarchov
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by lieexpsrView Post

And what makes the statistics even more remarkable is that it used to be 3 in 4 attending church in '65 and in '02 it was 1 in 4. That indicates to me that the catholics are cooking the books. The catholic religion is dying and it's because of the dogma in their case. That says that they better smarten up soon. And of course the article tells how they are smartening up a little with relaxed rules on anly number of issues. Constant my ---!


Actually, your still missing the point.

The USA and Europe are dwindling. In ALL religions.

Catholocism is still growing strong, faster than other religions.

You have Worldview Myopia im afraid ;P
 
lieexpsr
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

I read a while ago that the Chriatian Fundys were carving huge slices out of the Catholic pie in the traditional soul hunting grounds of central and south America. Competition is good for business, so the overall health of the Christian enterprize is good, which is bad. Apparently it's cheaper for Fundy parents to get thier kids into the sport as the equipment is cheaper in the protesting cults.

In the words of Satan, divide and conquer.

You are not Satan because I am. You can be my helper if you like because it's pretty obvious that you are going to roast with me!

See ya in hell buddy and the first drink is on me. Make mine a double Glenfiddich on ice if you're listening Beelzebub.
 
lieexpsr
#7
Zzarchov go grab another bucket of ice willya. And make it quick cause it's getting a little warm in here.
 
hermanntrude
#8
part of the definition of the catholic church is that its numbers will grow exponentially. Have u ever been to place where catholicism is the major religion? 12 kids per family.
 
Zzarchov
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by lieexpsrView Post

Zzarchov go grab another bucket of ice willya. And make it quick cause it's getting a little warm in here.


Sorry, Im married. You'll have to put off getting all hot and bothered by me. If you'd like more information about Catholocism, let me know.
 
AndyF
#10
Too dated to have any relevancy. The Church has made huge headways in alleviating this problem.

AndyF
 
darkbeaver
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by lieexpsrView Post

You are not Satan because I am. You can be my helper if you like because it's pretty obvious that you are going to roast with me!

See ya in hell buddy and the first drink is on me. Make mine a double Glenfiddich on ice if you're listening Beelzebub.

Sounds good to me though the ice might be a problem.
 
Dexter Sinister
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by lieexpsrView Post

See ya in hell buddy and the first drink is on me. Make mine a double Glenfiddich on ice if you're listening Beelzebub.

You take Glenfiddich on ice? You deserve to be in hell. Ice does terrible things to a good single malt like Glenfiddich. And that isn't even the best of the more affordable ones. I'd offer The Macallan if you were at my house, and if you asked for it over ice I'd have to throw you out. Without the drink.

More to the point, I really don't think we can blame a decline in Catholicism on Vatican II as the article you posted at the top does. There are many other factors at work, and I'm sure the church's prehistoric stand on contraception--which did not change at Vatican II as far as I know--is part of it. Besides, it may indeed be in sharp decline in western Europe and North America north of Mexico, but I think it's growing quite nicely in the Third World. I may be wrong, I haven't seen any stats on that lately because I haven't looked for them, I haven't much interest in the fortunes of the Catholic church, but the last ones I saw, about a decade ago I think, made that point.
 
lieexpsr
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

Sounds good to me though the ice might be a problem.

Dark, you are a purist! Maybe in your own home but do you realize how hot it's going to be where we are going?
 
lieexpsr
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

You take Glenfiddich on ice? You deserve to be in hell. Ice does terrible things to a good single malt like Glenfiddich. And that isn't even the best of the more affordable ones. I'd offer The Macallan if you were at my house, and if you asked for it over ice I'd have to throw you out. Without the drink.

More to the point, I really don't think we can blame a decline in Catholicism on Vatican II as the article you posted at the top does. There are many other factors at work, and I'm sure the church's prehistoric stand on contraception--which did not change at Vatican II as far as I know--is part of it. Besides, it may indeed be in sharp decline in western Europe and North America north of Mexico, but I think it's growing quite nicely in the Third World. I may be wrong, I haven't seen any stats on that lately because I haven't looked for them, I haven't much interest in the fortunes of the Catholic church, but the last ones I saw, about a decade ago I think, made that point.

Well that's not my style Dexter. I wouldn't even kick someone out of my house if they asked for ice in their Guiness stout! Remember pal, I'm an atheist. But I will drink your Macallan's on your porch and I'll bring my own ice!

But more to the point, catholicism is declining and I have supplied adequate proof of that I think. But I won't go any further with it for now because it may now be against the rules to attack religion on this forum. I'm awaiting a definitive answer on that now.
 
Zzarchov
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by lieexpsrView Post

Well that's not my style Dexter. I wouldn't even kick someone out of my house if they asked for ice in their Guiness stout! Remember pal, I'm an atheist. But I will drink your Macallan's on your porch and I'll bring my own ice!

But more to the point, catholicism is declining and I have supplied adequate proof of that I think. But I won't go any further with it for now because it may now be against the rules to attack religion on this forum. I'm awaiting a definitive answer on that now.


Saying its declining isn't attacking it.

The problem is your proving its declining in the United States, not that its Declining over all.

Its the difference between saying the overall life expectancy in a country is rising/declining, and using that information to make the same claim about the whole world.
 
darkbeaver
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by lieexpsrView Post

Dark, you are a purist! Maybe in your own home but do you realize how hot it's going to be where we are going?

No I have no idea how hot hell is.It can't be that bad though, we'd burn away and ruin the eternal agony thing wouldn't it? Central heating is a plus though.
 
snfu73
#17
To my understanding, organized religion as a whole is seeing a slump in attention. Churches of all stripes and colours have been trying to figure out ways to fill seats as congregations grow smaller and older.
 
lieexpsr
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by ZzarchovView Post

Saying its declining isn't attacking it.

The problem is your proving its declining in the United States, not that its Declining over all.

Its the difference between saying the overall life expectancy in a country is rising/declining, and using that information to make the same claim about the whole world.

If you think saying it's declining isn't attacking religion then you can maybe lay out exactly what is. For my own part I'm not saying anything more agaisnt religion until I read somebody else attacking it, then I will know it's o.k. Just abiding by juan's wishes.
 
lieexpsr
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

No I have no idea how hot hell is.It can't be that bad though, we'd burn away and ruin the eternal agony thing wouldn't it? Central heating is a plus though.

I dunno dark, maybe they pour water on ya when you start screaming loud enough. I'm actually looking forward to it for the Macallan's.
 
snfu73
#20
What the?? How is stating that the following of a religion is in decline attacking a religion???
 
lieexpsr
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

To my understanding, organized religion as a whole is seeing a slump in attention. Churches of all stripes and colours have been trying to figure out ways to fill seats as congregations grow smaller and older.

Of course they are. As stated in one of my links, there used to be 3 out of 4 catholics attending church and now there is 1 out of 4. I don't know what makes a person a catholic if he/she doesn't keep in touch with the church. And I don't know how the church can count them when they aren't aware of them. Maybe it's wishful thinking?
 
lieexpsr
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

What the?? How is stating that the following of a religion is in decline attacking a religion???

I didn't say it was. I said I didn't know what constitutes attacking religion.
 
snfu73
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by lieexpsrView Post

I didn't say it was. I said I didn't know what constitutes attacking religion.

Ooooohhhhh. Well, I don't think this thread constitutes attacking religion. I would say that saying all Catholics suck is attacking a religion...but I wouldn't say discussing the issue we are discussing would constitute an attack. But, rightly so, I think that the constant attack on the GLBT community by the Catholic church is brutal as well, and I would hope that if anyone was posting blatantly homophobic crap and justifying it by hiding behind the bible would be dealt with in the same way that someone who is "attacking" catholocism would be dealt with.
 
lieexpsr
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

Ooooohhhhh. Well, I don't think this thread constitutes attacking religion. I would say that saying all Catholics suck is attacking a religion...but I wouldn't say discussing the issue we are discussing would constitute an attack. But, rightly so, I think that the constant attack on the GLBT community by the Catholic church is brutal as well, and I would hope that if anyone was posting blatantly homophobic crap and justifying it by hiding behind the bible would be dealt with in the same way that someone who is "attacking" catholocism would be dealt with.

In a perfect world snfu73. I can't say anything more at the moment.
 
snfu73
#25
Why can't you say anymore? Are the FBI in on this? Is CSIS checking in? What's the scoop???
 
lieexpsr
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

Why can't you say anymore? Are the FBI in on this? Is CSIS checking in? What's the scoop???

I think we better just leave it at that for now.
 
snfu73
#27
Your confusing the heck out of me lieexpsr. I dunno what's going on...and what the top secret stuff is all about. No one told me the handshake...I don't know the passcode...I dunno what's going on. But, hey...have it your way...we shall end the conversation at that.
 
lieexpsr
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

Your confusing the heck out of me lieexpsr. I dunno what's going on...and what the top secret stuff is all about. No one told me the handshake...I don't know the passcode...I dunno what's going on. But, hey...have it your way...we shall end the conversation at that.

Look snfu, how about you carrying the ball for me. You can say anything you want about any religion you hate or like or dislike or whatever. If you have negative thoughts on any religion you can rest assured that I will concur wholeheartedly. Me, I have been instructed to not attack religion and I have yet to figure out what ........ thinks is an attack
 
snfu73
#29
Well....who has instructed you? Have you asked them why? Is there a specific post you can point to? Are you attacking religion? And if you aren't, then does it matter what someone else thinks? And if someone wants to kick you out because of it...so?
 
lieexpsr
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

Well....who has instructed you? Have you asked them why? Is there a specific post you can point to? Are you attacking religion? And if you aren't, then does it matter what someone else thinks? And if someone wants to kick you out because of it...so?

I'll send you a private message. I don't know if they are really all that private or not but I'll take a chance.
 

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