Council Member
Posts: 1,923 
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
January 1st, 2007, 04:22 PM
For believers in Jesus:
For non-believers:
Whats your say?
Peace>>>AJ
For believers in Jesus:
Quote:
in.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born aga
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born aga
For non-believers:
Quote:
The first is spiritually discerned, and incomprehensible to the human mind.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Whats your say?
Peace>>>AJ
Time Out
Posts: 4,276 
Videos: 1
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Videos: 1
Location: Richmond, Virginia
January 1st, 2007, 04:25 PM
Of course you do silly its called reincarnation.
Of course you do silly its called reincarnation.
Genius
Posts: 768
January 1st, 2007, 05:14 PM
Quoting Sassylassie
Have you seen what the mormons do? Okay, no offense to the mormons, but my daughter married into that "religion" and needed to be baptised. She had to wear this white polyester dress and be dunked backwards for full immersion into a big tub of water. There is a viewing gallery where all the men sit. She apparently wasn't properly dunked the first time so she was double dunked. I was truly (how do I say this nicely) stunned at the show. It's definitely as revealing as the wet t-shirt contest so doing it twice maybe gave twice the thrills. I felt like I had just sat in a room with a bunch of men as we looked at my naked daughter ... couldn't get out of there fast enough and couldn't look any of those men in the eye afterwards. That's "born again" for some people.
LOL Ariadne, I believe the Baptist and the Born Again do a ceremony where they dip you in a pool or river or lake and thus you are reborn.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
January 1st, 2007, 10:18 PM
Lunch ...... reborn through baptism....
Quoting Sassylassie
Yeah I seen that....like a racoon "finds" his fresh meal every time he lifts it out of the water....
LOL Ariadne, I believe the Baptist and the Born Again do a ceremony where they dip you in a pool or river or lake and thus you are reborn.
Lunch ...... reborn through baptism....
Les
Posts: 6,040
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
January 1st, 2007, 10:56 PM
Read my signature.
Hmmm. It doesn't seem to want to show up in this thread. Weird. Anyway, it says, "Born again?! No, I'm not. Excuse me for getting it right the first time. "
quoting Dennis Miller. And I don't want to be born again, either.
Read my signature.
Hmmm. It doesn't seem to want to show up in this thread. Weird. Anyway, it says, "Born again?! No, I'm not. Excuse me for getting it right the first time. "
quoting Dennis Miller. And I don't want to be born again, either.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
January 1st, 2007, 11:39 PM
Baptism rites of passage.
Throughout human history, tribes have created rituals involving symbolic actions and activities. Adolescent Masai males engage in many symbolic rituals to achieve status as a warrior. A male child must grab the tail of a male lion and hang onto that tail to be dragged by the lion for some distance as one of the “rites” required. To be successful (survive) the young man must grab the lion’s tail at the base and not the end because a lion will stiffen its tail and throttle the hanger-on by lashing the youth on the ground. The lion’s tail where it emerges from the spinal column at its base near the lion’s hind-quarters can be held without this problem, but to get close enough to a lion to get the perfect hold takes stealth cunning and considerable courage.
I’d take a dip in a pond any ole day over pestering lion’s thank you!
One of the principle functions and exercises of organized religions is promoting and developing tribalism in various forms and along very particular strata…
“Worship” can be a private undertaking however; tribal members are encouraged to participate in public demonstration of their commitment to the tribe and its ethos/credo. Not only is this a vehicle for shared acceptance and reinforcement of acceptance into the tribe, but a means whereby social stratifications can be concretized. The local population frequents individual churches and the relative wealth/power and social status in the community are not only reflected but also reinforced through these public gatherings.
The dynamics of similarly minded groups of individuals whether it’s a group of skinheads or Black Panthers…any congregation subscribing to the same proposition brings with it a preparedness to embrace the message being delivered. Not as individuals might consider an idea at some distance, where there exists the opportunity for lengthier assessment but as a member of a group bound together emotionally and intellectually, no longer an individual in many respects…..
Since acceptance into the tribe hinges on one’s publicly and openly avowing and acknowledging subscription to the group/gang/mob/cultural-sub group’s philosophy/dogma/doctrine/ideology, affirming the message as unequivocally truthful pertinent and critical (as determined by the elders officers and servants of the tribe), to permit even a hint that an individual vying for acknowledgement of membership/ acceptance by the tribe etc. questioning the logos would be not only “bad form” but would ensure rejection.
If a KKK meeting were attended by one or two Black Panthers, in many instances there’d simply be one or two fewer Black Panthers in the world at the end of that meeting with the reverse being just as likely….
Surrender to any idea that requires you to abandon the exercise of free thinking and substitute the ideation of some “learned-man”, some ancient text or the visions produced when ceremonies include narcotics stimulants and mind altering agents, any ritual that requires you to unquestioningly believe and imposes these and similar rites as conditions to acceptance respect and inclusion into the tribe are efforts to separate you from your interrelationship with the world and existence itself.
The tribal mentality, the “hive-consciousness” requires that you regard your concern for your own existence and well-being after that of the tribe’s existence and well-being…very much like communism if you’re looking for a model.
Communal thinking, mob-mentality, “movements” all rely on surrender of your self-ness….to the group.
Be very wary of organizations that employ tattoos, icons as adornment or signifier….or for that matter uniforms and dress that seeks to eliminate the individuals identification with himself and replace the process of identification of self with identification with the group.
Especially those that delight in dunking you in cold water!
Baptism rites of passage.
Throughout human history, tribes have created rituals involving symbolic actions and activities. Adolescent Masai males engage in many symbolic rituals to achieve status as a warrior. A male child must grab the tail of a male lion and hang onto that tail to be dragged by the lion for some distance as one of the “rites” required. To be successful (survive) the young man must grab the lion’s tail at the base and not the end because a lion will stiffen its tail and throttle the hanger-on by lashing the youth on the ground. The lion’s tail where it emerges from the spinal column at its base near the lion’s hind-quarters can be held without this problem, but to get close enough to a lion to get the perfect hold takes stealth cunning and considerable courage.
I’d take a dip in a pond any ole day over pestering lion’s thank you!
One of the principle functions and exercises of organized religions is promoting and developing tribalism in various forms and along very particular strata…
“Worship” can be a private undertaking however; tribal members are encouraged to participate in public demonstration of their commitment to the tribe and its ethos/credo. Not only is this a vehicle for shared acceptance and reinforcement of acceptance into the tribe, but a means whereby social stratifications can be concretized. The local population frequents individual churches and the relative wealth/power and social status in the community are not only reflected but also reinforced through these public gatherings.
The dynamics of similarly minded groups of individuals whether it’s a group of skinheads or Black Panthers…any congregation subscribing to the same proposition brings with it a preparedness to embrace the message being delivered. Not as individuals might consider an idea at some distance, where there exists the opportunity for lengthier assessment but as a member of a group bound together emotionally and intellectually, no longer an individual in many respects…..
Since acceptance into the tribe hinges on one’s publicly and openly avowing and acknowledging subscription to the group/gang/mob/cultural-sub group’s philosophy/dogma/doctrine/ideology, affirming the message as unequivocally truthful pertinent and critical (as determined by the elders officers and servants of the tribe), to permit even a hint that an individual vying for acknowledgement of membership/ acceptance by the tribe etc. questioning the logos would be not only “bad form” but would ensure rejection.
If a KKK meeting were attended by one or two Black Panthers, in many instances there’d simply be one or two fewer Black Panthers in the world at the end of that meeting with the reverse being just as likely….
Surrender to any idea that requires you to abandon the exercise of free thinking and substitute the ideation of some “learned-man”, some ancient text or the visions produced when ceremonies include narcotics stimulants and mind altering agents, any ritual that requires you to unquestioningly believe and imposes these and similar rites as conditions to acceptance respect and inclusion into the tribe are efforts to separate you from your interrelationship with the world and existence itself.
The tribal mentality, the “hive-consciousness” requires that you regard your concern for your own existence and well-being after that of the tribe’s existence and well-being…very much like communism if you’re looking for a model.
Communal thinking, mob-mentality, “movements” all rely on surrender of your self-ness….to the group.
Be very wary of organizations that employ tattoos, icons as adornment or signifier….or for that matter uniforms and dress that seeks to eliminate the individuals identification with himself and replace the process of identification of self with identification with the group.
Especially those that delight in dunking you in cold water!
Genius
Posts: 768
January 1st, 2007, 11:49 PM
Quoting MikeyDB
I think part of the delight of belonging to one of those organized belief sets is breaking the rules. Even the mormons remove those cotton full waist pantaloons and don a thong once in a while ... I'd bet on it. After all, what's the point of being born again if you can't bring a little of your old self forth into the new life - if only to (what's the word !!!) be the person that speaks to the group to describe how the new birth improved everything.
Baptism rites of passage.
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
January 2nd, 2007, 12:22 AM
You all have some good natural human learnt experiences but so far, I've heard nothing but carnal thinking.Where is the spiritual significance of it?
We are all born once, everybody knows that.
And all those rituals of tribes, gangs and religious organizations are but man's natural attempts to bind and hold.
But what I speak about is free. Free of any bondage. Something in which you all would be proud to proclaim, since your claim of free thinkers.
Peace>>>AJ
You all have some good natural human learnt experiences but so far, I've heard nothing but carnal thinking.Where is the spiritual significance of it?
We are all born once, everybody knows that.
And all those rituals of tribes, gangs and religious organizations are but man's natural attempts to bind and hold.
But what I speak about is free. Free of any bondage. Something in which you all would be proud to proclaim, since your claim of free thinkers.
Peace>>>AJ
Genius
Posts: 768
January 2nd, 2007, 12:33 AM
Free thinker or otherwise, Canadians live by the rules of regular Christianity and those are the ones we're born into (thankfully) so after that everyone can be as free thinking as they want with the interpretation. For example, do unto others as you would have them do unto you may mean that if someone is going to lie to you, you want them to do it convincingly because otherwise it insults your intelligence, which may seem worse that being lied to. Maybe when you tell a lie, it is only done with great forethought, effort and consideration of intellectual flaws. Others may have convinced themselves that they never tell a lie so they are extremely offended when someone tells them even a clever lie.
Quoting look3467
Even the alcoholics can be born again ... they turn over a new leaf, redefine their values and then live a life with the new rules.
You all have some good natural human learnt experiences but so far, I've heard nothing but carnal thinking.Where is the spiritual significance of it?
We are all born once, everybody knows that.
And all those rituals of tribes, gangs and religious organizations are but man's natural attempts to bind and hold.
But what I speak about is free. Free of any bondage. Something in which you all would be proud to proclaim, since your claim of free thinkers.
Peace>>>AJ
We are all born once, everybody knows that.
And all those rituals of tribes, gangs and religious organizations are but man's natural attempts to bind and hold.
But what I speak about is free. Free of any bondage. Something in which you all would be proud to proclaim, since your claim of free thinkers.
Peace>>>AJ
Free thinker or otherwise, Canadians live by the rules of regular Christianity and those are the ones we're born into (thankfully) so after that everyone can be as free thinking as they want with the interpretation. For example, do unto others as you would have them do unto you may mean that if someone is going to lie to you, you want them to do it convincingly because otherwise it insults your intelligence, which may seem worse that being lied to. Maybe when you tell a lie, it is only done with great forethought, effort and consideration of intellectual flaws. Others may have convinced themselves that they never tell a lie so they are extremely offended when someone tells them even a clever lie.
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
January 2nd, 2007, 01:01 AM
Yes, I agree that alcoholics can be rehabilitated as well as other cases of lustful desires.
Born again can be defined by the natural mind as rehabilitated, turning a new leaf.
For we are given intelligence to subdue the earth in all facets of the sciences.
The consequences for this knowledge is what brought death, to the flesh and to the flesh's spirit.
So, if the first born experience brought death, the second birth brings life to a dead soul. Hence: re-born.
I don't expect any to jump up and grab that information, but by simply listening to it, perhaps the Holy Spirit would enlighten some of you.
I present this information in contrast to many different views, the choice is up to the individual of what to believe.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting Ariadne
You do understand that participating in this conversation on this thread you will be exposed to my views? And by the same token, I yours. But be it known, that I am not offended in any of it.
Even the alcoholics can be born again ... they turn over a new leaf, redefine their values and then live a life with the new rules.
Free thinker or otherwise, Canadians live by the rules of regular Christianity and those are the ones we're born into (thankfully) so after that everyone can be as free thinking as they want with the interpretation. For example, do unto others as you would have them do unto you may mean that if someone is going to lie to you, you want them to do it convincingly because otherwise it insults your intelligence, which may seem worse that being lied to. Maybe when you tell a lie, it is only done with great forethought, effort and consideration of intellectual flaws. Others may have convinced themselves that they never tell a lie so they are extremely offended when someone tells them even a clever lie.
Free thinker or otherwise, Canadians live by the rules of regular Christianity and those are the ones we're born into (thankfully) so after that everyone can be as free thinking as they want with the interpretation. For example, do unto others as you would have them do unto you may mean that if someone is going to lie to you, you want them to do it convincingly because otherwise it insults your intelligence, which may seem worse that being lied to. Maybe when you tell a lie, it is only done with great forethought, effort and consideration of intellectual flaws. Others may have convinced themselves that they never tell a lie so they are extremely offended when someone tells them even a clever lie.
Yes, I agree that alcoholics can be rehabilitated as well as other cases of lustful desires.
Born again can be defined by the natural mind as rehabilitated, turning a new leaf.
For we are given intelligence to subdue the earth in all facets of the sciences.
The consequences for this knowledge is what brought death, to the flesh and to the flesh's spirit.
So, if the first born experience brought death, the second birth brings life to a dead soul. Hence: re-born.
I don't expect any to jump up and grab that information, but by simply listening to it, perhaps the Holy Spirit would enlighten some of you.
I present this information in contrast to many different views, the choice is up to the individual of what to believe.
Peace>>>AJ
Genius
Posts: 768
January 2nd, 2007, 01:17 AM
I think the whole born again idea is inspired by the idea that life is miserable and needs to be changed. Change is difficult without help and thus the alcoholic that joins the group, the religious believer that jumps ship to another stricter, or more supportive, religion and ultimately the personal belief that there is a new life to emerge from the old damaged one.
Don't underestimate your audience ... they are fully capable of grasping the death of the discarded life, like a cutworm, and rebirth of a new and better one, like the moth - although the moth still seems a bit like a dead soul.
Quoting look3467
No way! I don't think I could be offended by any views unless it deteriorated to name calling and personal insults ... but I see that you are a well spoken, perhaps I should say: eloquent, thinker and as such, I could not possibly take offense in your carefully considered words. Now that we got that over with ...
You do understand that participating in this conversation on this thread you will be exposed to my views? And by the same token, I yours. But be it known, that I am not offended in any of it.
Yes, I agree that alcoholics can be rehabilitated as well as other cases of lustful desires.
Born again can be defined by the natural mind as rehabilitated, turning a new leaf.
For we are given intelligence to subdue the earth in all facets of the sciences.
The consequences for this knowledge is what brought death, to the flesh and to the flesh's spirit.
So, if the first born experience brought death, the second birth brings life to a dead soul. Hence: re-born.
I don't expect any to jump up and grab that information, but by simply listening to it, perhaps the Holy Spirit would enlighten some of you.
I present this information in contrast to many different views, the choice is up to the individual of what to believe.
Peace>>>AJ
Yes, I agree that alcoholics can be rehabilitated as well as other cases of lustful desires.
Born again can be defined by the natural mind as rehabilitated, turning a new leaf.
For we are given intelligence to subdue the earth in all facets of the sciences.
The consequences for this knowledge is what brought death, to the flesh and to the flesh's spirit.
So, if the first born experience brought death, the second birth brings life to a dead soul. Hence: re-born.
I don't expect any to jump up and grab that information, but by simply listening to it, perhaps the Holy Spirit would enlighten some of you.
I present this information in contrast to many different views, the choice is up to the individual of what to believe.
Peace>>>AJ
I think the whole born again idea is inspired by the idea that life is miserable and needs to be changed. Change is difficult without help and thus the alcoholic that joins the group, the religious believer that jumps ship to another stricter, or more supportive, religion and ultimately the personal belief that there is a new life to emerge from the old damaged one.
Don't underestimate your audience ... they are fully capable of grasping the death of the discarded life, like a cutworm, and rebirth of a new and better one, like the moth - although the moth still seems a bit like a dead soul.
Council Member
Posts: 1,923
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
January 2nd, 2007, 01:40 AM
Yes, pit falls in life can definitely become a hellish experience, and salvation from it would be welcomed. We could call it death to the old habit and or a re-birth to a new life.
All that is within the realm of the flesh. There must be a change in the heart before any changes can take place. A repentance if you will. A: "Oh what a wretched man I am"; how can I get out of this condition?
One's spirit exists for the continuance of the flesh, to control all body functions, even though it is alive, it is dead. An oxymoron? Alive physically, but spiritually separated from God.
To be reconciled back to God, our dead spirits must be re-born.
An external source, an intervention from the spirit of God in our lives that rejuvenates our spirits and makes them alive for ever more.
That is the understanding that is being missed and not seen.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting Ariadne
Spoken like a true gentleman.
No way! I don't think I could be offended by any views unless it deteriorated to name calling and personal insults ... but I see that you are a well spoken, perhaps I should say: eloquent, thinker and as such, I could not possibly take offense in your carefully considered words. Now that we got that over with ...
I think the whole born again idea is inspired by the idea that life is miserable and needs to be changed. Change is difficult without help and thus the alcoholic that joins the group, the religious believer that jumps ship to another stricter, or more supportive, religion and ultimately the personal belief that there is a new life to emerge from the old damaged one.
Don't underestimate your audience ... they are fully capable of grasping the death of the discarded life, like a cutworm, and rebirth of a new and better one, like the moth - although the moth still seems a bit like a dead soul.
I think the whole born again idea is inspired by the idea that life is miserable and needs to be changed. Change is difficult without help and thus the alcoholic that joins the group, the religious believer that jumps ship to another stricter, or more supportive, religion and ultimately the personal belief that there is a new life to emerge from the old damaged one.
Don't underestimate your audience ... they are fully capable of grasping the death of the discarded life, like a cutworm, and rebirth of a new and better one, like the moth - although the moth still seems a bit like a dead soul.
Yes, pit falls in life can definitely become a hellish experience, and salvation from it would be welcomed. We could call it death to the old habit and or a re-birth to a new life.
All that is within the realm of the flesh. There must be a change in the heart before any changes can take place. A repentance if you will. A: "Oh what a wretched man I am"; how can I get out of this condition?
One's spirit exists for the continuance of the flesh, to control all body functions, even though it is alive, it is dead. An oxymoron? Alive physically, but spiritually separated from God.
To be reconciled back to God, our dead spirits must be re-born.
An external source, an intervention from the spirit of God in our lives that rejuvenates our spirits and makes them alive for ever more.
That is the understanding that is being missed and not seen.
Peace>>>AJ
