"Ye must be born again" yea, or nay?

[look3467]

For believers in Jesus:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born aga

in.

For non-believers:

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

The first is spiritually discerned, and incomprehensible to the human mind.

Whats your say? :scratch:

Peace>>>AJ

 

[selfactivated]

Of course you do silly its called reincarnation.

 

[Sassylassie]

Yep I agree with you Self, I believe in reincarnation.

 

[Ariadne]

I thought that's what baptism was all about ... being born again as belonging to some sort of faith. I'm not baptised, so what do I know about it, but it seems like that's what it's all about.

 

[Sassylassie]

LOL Ariadne, I believe the Baptist and the Born Again do a ceremony where they dip you in a pool or river or lake and thus you are reborn.

 

[Ariadne]

LOL Ariadne, I believe the Baptist and the Born Again do a ceremony where they dip you in a pool or river or lake and thus you are reborn.

Have you seen what the mormons do? Okay, no offense to the mormons, but my daughter married into that "religion" and needed to be baptised. She had to wear this white polyester dress and be dunked backwards for full immersion into a big tub of water. There is a viewing gallery where all the men sit. She apparently wasn't properly dunked the first time so she was double dunked. I was truly (how do I say this nicely) stunned at the show. It's definitely as revealing as the wet t-shirt contest so doing it twice maybe gave twice the thrills. I felt like I had just sat in a room with a bunch of men as we looked at my naked daughter ... couldn't get out of there fast enough and couldn't look any of those men in the eye afterwards. That's "born again" for some people.

 

[look3467]

Interesting reply's. Carry on.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MikeyDB]

LOL Ariadne, I believe the Baptist and the Born Again do a ceremony where they dip you in a pool or river or lake and thus you are reborn.

Yeah I seen that....like a racoon "finds" his fresh meal every time he lifts it out of the water....

Lunch ...... reborn through baptism....

 

[L Gilbert]

Read my signature.

Hmmm. It doesn't seem to want to show up in this thread. Weird. Anyway, it says, "Born again?! No, I'm not. Excuse me for getting it right the first time. "
quoting Dennis Miller. And I don't want to be born again, either.

 

[MikeyDB]

Baptism rites of passage.

Throughout human history, tribes have created rituals involving symbolic actions and activities. Adolescent Masai males engage in many symbolic rituals to achieve status as a warrior. A male child must grab the tail of a male lion and hang onto that tail to be dragged by the lion for some distance as one of the “rites” required. To be successful (survive) the young man must grab the lion’s tail at the base and not the end because a lion will stiffen its tail and throttle the hanger-on by lashing the youth on the ground. The lion’s tail where it emerges from the spinal column at its base near the lion’s hind-quarters can be held without this problem, but to get close enough to a lion to get the perfect hold takes stealth cunning and considerable courage.

I’d take a dip in a pond any ole day over pestering lion’s thank you!

One of the principle functions and exercises of organized religions is promoting and developing tribalism in various forms and along very particular strata…

“Worship” can be a private undertaking however; tribal members are encouraged to participate in public demonstration of their commitment to the tribe and its ethos/credo. Not only is this a vehicle for shared acceptance and reinforcement of acceptance into the tribe, but a means whereby social stratifications can be concretized. The local population frequents individual churches and the relative wealth/power and social status in the community are not only reflected but also reinforced through these public gatherings.

The dynamics of similarly minded groups of individuals whether it’s a group of skinheads or Black Panthers…any congregation subscribing to the same proposition brings with it a preparedness to embrace the message being delivered. Not as individuals might consider an idea at some distance, where there exists the opportunity for lengthier assessment but as a member of a group bound together emotionally and intellectually, no longer an individual in many respects…..

Since acceptance into the tribe hinges on one’s publicly and openly avowing and acknowledging subscription to the group/gang/mob/cultural-sub group’s philosophy/dogma/doctrine/ideology, affirming the message as unequivocally truthful pertinent and critical (as determined by the elders officers and servants of the tribe), to permit even a hint that an individual vying for acknowledgement of membership/ acceptance by the tribe etc. questioning the logos would be not only “bad form” but would ensure rejection.

If a KKK meeting were attended by one or two Black Panthers, in many instances there’d simply be one or two fewer Black Panthers in the world at the end of that meeting with the reverse being just as likely….

Surrender to any idea that requires you to abandon the exercise of free thinking and substitute the ideation of some “learned-man”, some ancient text or the visions produced when ceremonies include narcotics stimulants and mind altering agents, any ritual that requires you to unquestioningly believe and imposes these and similar rites as conditions to acceptance respect and inclusion into the tribe are efforts to separate you from your interrelationship with the world and existence itself.

The tribal mentality, the “hive-consciousness” requires that you regard your concern for your own existence and well-being after that of the tribe’s existence and well-being…very much like communism if you’re looking for a model.

Communal thinking, mob-mentality, “movements” all rely on surrender of your self-ness….to the group.

Be very wary of organizations that employ tattoos, icons as adornment or signifier….or for that matter uniforms and dress that seeks to eliminate the individuals identification with himself and replace the process of identification of self with identification with the group.

Especially those that delight in dunking you in cold water!

 

[Ariadne]

Baptism rites of passage.

I think part of the delight of belonging to one of those organized belief sets is breaking the rules. Even the mormons remove those cotton full waist pantaloons and don a thong once in a while ... I'd bet on it. After all, what's the point of being born again if you can't bring a little of your old self forth into the new life - if only to (what's the word !!!) be the person that speaks to the group to describe how the new birth improved everything.

 

[MikeyDB]

I saw a Rabbi eating a ham sandwich once...it that what you mean...

 

[look3467]

You all have some good natural human learnt experiences but so far, I've heard nothing but carnal thinking.Where is the spiritual significance of it?
We are all born once, everybody knows that.
And all those rituals of tribes, gangs and religious organizations are but man's natural attempts to bind and hold.
But what I speak about is free. Free of any bondage. Something in which you all would be proud to proclaim, since your claim of free thinkers.



Peace>>>AJ

 

[Ariadne]

I saw a Rabbi eating a ham sandwich once...it that what you mean...

It's the Jewish guy that nods to the cook behind the counter and says he wants his bacon on the same plate as the eggs, just today.

 

[Ariadne]

You all have some good natural human learnt experiences but so far, I've heard nothing but carnal thinking.Where is the spiritual significance of it?
We are all born once, everybody knows that.
And all those rituals of tribes, gangs and religious organizations are but man's natural attempts to bind and hold.
But what I speak about is free. Free of any bondage. Something in which you all would be proud to proclaim, since your claim of free thinkers.

Peace>>>AJ

Even the alcoholics can be born again ... they turn over a new leaf, redefine their values and then live a life with the new rules.

Free thinker or otherwise, Canadians live by the rules of regular Christianity and those are the ones we're born into (thankfully) so after that everyone can be as free thinking as they want with the interpretation. For example, do unto others as you would have them do unto you may mean that if someone is going to lie to you, you want them to do it convincingly because otherwise it insults your intelligence, which may seem worse that being lied to. Maybe when you tell a lie, it is only done with great forethought, effort and consideration of intellectual flaws. Others may have convinced themselves that they never tell a lie so they are extremely offended when someone tells them even a clever lie.

 

[look3467]

Even the alcoholics can be born again ... they turn over a new leaf, redefine their values and then live a life with the new rules.

Free thinker or otherwise, Canadians live by the rules of regular Christianity and those are the ones we're born into (thankfully) so after that everyone can be as free thinking as they want with the interpretation. For example, do unto others as you would have them do unto you may mean that if someone is going to lie to you, you want them to do it convincingly because otherwise it insults your intelligence, which may seem worse that being lied to. Maybe when you tell a lie, it is only done with great forethought, effort and consideration of intellectual flaws. Others may have convinced themselves that they never tell a lie so they are extremely offended when someone tells them even a clever lie.

You do understand that participating in this conversation on this thread you will be exposed to my views? And by the same token, I yours. But be it known, that I am not offended in any of it.

Yes, I agree that alcoholics can be rehabilitated as well as other cases of lustful desires.

Born again can be defined by the natural mind as rehabilitated, turning a new leaf.

For we are given intelligence to subdue the earth in all facets of the sciences.

The consequences for this knowledge is what brought death, to the flesh and to the flesh's spirit.

So, if the first born experience brought death, the second birth brings life to a dead soul. Hence: re-born.
I don't expect any to jump up and grab that information, but by simply listening to it, perhaps the Holy Spirit would enlighten some of you.
I present this information in contrast to many different views, the choice is up to the individual of what to believe.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Ariadne]

You do understand that participating in this conversation on this thread you will be exposed to my views? And by the same token, I yours. But be it known, that I am not offended in any of it.

Yes, I agree that alcoholics can be rehabilitated as well as other cases of lustful desires.

Born again can be defined by the natural mind as rehabilitated, turning a new leaf.

For we are given intelligence to subdue the earth in all facets of the sciences.

The consequences for this knowledge is what brought death, to the flesh and to the flesh's spirit.

So, if the first born experience brought death, the second birth brings life to a dead soul. Hence: re-born.
I don't expect any to jump up and grab that information, but by simply listening to it, perhaps the Holy Spirit would enlighten some of you.
I present this information in contrast to many different views, the choice is up to the individual of what to believe.

Peace>>>AJ

No way! I don't think I could be offended by any views unless it deteriorated to name calling and personal insults ... but I see that you are a well spoken, perhaps I should say: eloquent, thinker and as such, I could not possibly take offense in your carefully considered words. Now that we got that over with ...

I think the whole born again idea is inspired by the idea that life is miserable and needs to be changed. Change is difficult without help and thus the alcoholic that joins the group, the religious believer that jumps ship to another stricter, or more supportive, religion and ultimately the personal belief that there is a new life to emerge from the old damaged one.

Don't underestimate your audience ... they are fully capable of grasping the death of the discarded life, like a cutworm, and rebirth of a new and better one, like the moth - although the moth still seems a bit like a dead soul.

 

[look3467]

No way! I don't think I could be offended by any views unless it deteriorated to name calling and personal insults ... but I see that you are a well spoken, perhaps I should say: eloquent, thinker and as such, I could not possibly take offense in your carefully considered words. Now that we got that over with ...

I think the whole born again idea is inspired by the idea that life is miserable and needs to be changed. Change is difficult without help and thus the alcoholic that joins the group, the religious believer that jumps ship to another stricter, or more supportive, religion and ultimately the personal belief that there is a new life to emerge from the old damaged one.

Don't underestimate your audience ... they are fully capable of grasping the death of the discarded life, like a cutworm, and rebirth of a new and better one, like the moth - although the moth still seems a bit like a dead soul.

Spoken like a true gentleman.

Yes, pit falls in life can definitely become a hellish experience, and salvation from it would be welcomed. We could call it death to the old habit and or a re-birth to a new life.

All that is within the realm of the flesh. There must be a change in the heart before any changes can take place. A repentance if you will. A: "Oh what a wretched man I am"; how can I get out of this condition?
One's spirit exists for the continuance of the flesh, to control all body functions, even though it is alive, it is dead. An oxymoron? Alive physically, but spiritually separated from God.
To be reconciled back to God, our dead spirits must be re-born.

An external source, an intervention from the spirit of God in our lives that rejuvenates our spirits and makes them alive for ever more.

That is the understanding that is being missed and not seen.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Ariadne]

Spoken like a true gentleman.

Yes, pit falls in life can definitely become a hellish experience, and salvation from it would be welcomed. We could call it death to the old habit and or a re-birth to a new life.

All that is within the realm of the flesh. There must be a change in the heart before any changes can take place. A repentance if you will. A: "Oh what a wretched man I am"; how can I get out of this condition?
One's spirit exists for the continuance of the flesh, to control all body functions, even though it is alive, it is dead. An oxymoron? Alive physically, but spiritually separated from God.
To be reconciled back to God, our dead spirits must be re-born.

An external source, an intervention from the spirit of God in our lives that rejuvenates our spirits and makes them alive for ever more.

That is the understanding that is being missed and not seen.

Peace>>>AJ

What exactly do you mean by "within the realm of flesh". If people get to the point of thinking they are wretched prior to seeking medical assistance, perhaps they should have an advocate speaking for them. Is a spirit like a soul? I'm pretty sure that I spoke with a brain tumour survivor who told me that one thing is for sure (given their abnormal behavior under the tumour), there is no soul that guides or governs when the body is ill. The ill body or mind are definitely in charge.

Are you suggesting that being human is to be separated from God and therefore that desire for re-birth is a desire to be back to oneness with God ... as in physically dead? I hope you're not advocating suicide, because there are definitely better ways to be reborn. For example, join a religion (or educational philosophy) that rejects computers. That would be a type of rebirth into those sweet memories of childhood, where technology was just a telephone in the home's high traffic area.

We could be rejeuvenated by sports and those amazing endorphins, pheromones and other cool natural highs. That in itself makes us alive for evermore ... until our last breath.

I don't think people are missing anything, I think they are making different choices, choices that are not only about faith but more about the immediate and all that other existential stuff.

 

[look3467]

Are you suggesting that being human is to be separated from God and therefore that desire for re-birth is a desire to be back to oneness with God ... as in physically dead? I hope you're not advocating suicide, because there are definitely better ways to be reborn. For example, join a religion (or educational philosophy) that rejects computers. That would be a type of rebirth into those sweet memories of childhood, where technology was just a telephone in the home's high traffic area.>>>Ariadne

“Oh wretched man that I am” is a quote by the Apostle Paul:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul’s name was Saul prior to seeing the spirit of Jesus, and his name changed because of that.

He had first hand experience as to who Jesus was upon that change and thereafter understood the mysteries hidden to all of us from the beginning.

Paul then became an Apostle to the Gentile world.

Going back to your question above, Yes, being human is a separation from God which brought death to the body and soul.
The gates of heaven were shut and the gates of eternal separation (Hell) were also locked shut.
There then was a great gulf span between the two of which no man could bridge.

In due time, at a time appointed, God sent His Son in the form of flesh, born of the flesh, with the same self trials of the flesh, to re-do that which was done in the first Adam, and that being: disobedience.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In that verse, as explained by Paul, he shows us that the first man Adam disobeyed God and brought death (separation) upon its entire offspring. (A fleshly thing)

But then he goes on to explain that also by the obedience of one man (a second Adam) many be made righteous (alive). (A spiritual thing)

So, in conclusion, and based upon the theme that is prevalent throughout the whole bible, is that God in His love created us to be like Him. (Ability to know good and evil)

Hence the devil saying to Eve:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Being as gods, is to be able to know good and evil, and or to practice free will.

But this came with a cost. (Suffering)

So, we are once born (Flesh) from the first Adam, and to by the second Adam, we must be born again, but with a different nature, and that nature being not as the first, (flesh and death) but as a second birth (Spirit to life everlasting)

This second Adam is Jesus by whose body our sins were placed on as a sacrifice of obedience for all mankind, thus breaking the gates of heaven open, and opening the gates of hell, liberating all who were in there, and bridging the great gulf span to heaven for us.
Bear in mind, that all this is a spiritual work done in the body of flesh.

That is why there are two births, one flesh and the other spirit. One: of Adam and the other: of God.
Jesus said, marvel not at this thing, just believe Jesus and trust Him, for He is the last word to us by which all mankind is to be saved.

1

Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Apart from that, we are as the first Adam.

Peace>>>AJ