Tempers Flare Over School Prayers In Toronto

[Liberalman]

Tempers flare over school prayers in Toronto

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/09/18/18702961.html

In Toronto there is a public school system and a separate school system, which is operated by the Catholics.

Toronto taxpayers have their choice of either their tax dollars supporting one or the other.

Prayers in public schools are not necessary and if parents feel strongly about prayer in the schools then they should get their kids enrolled the separate school system.

 

[petros]

I agree. If RC isn't your thing then too damn bad.

 

[CDNBear]

Coren & Banerjee on the Toronto mosqueteria - YouTube

I agree. If RC isn't your thing then too damn bad.

Your habit of not reading articles before you comment on them, is funny.

 

[SLM]

Personally I would prefer a full and complete separation of church and state. Any public services should be free of any and all church influence, irrespective of what religion that church is. You cannot accomodate one group without accomodating all groups.

I am curious as to how the arguement would stand up to a constitutional challenge though.

 

[petros]

I'd prefer to see a seperation of religion and state and not just the Church.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

This same school board will go out of the way to remove Christ from Christmas.

They should either allow all prayer in school or allow none. They should either allow the Muslim's prayer in school but they should allow all prayers and stop this pretending that Christmas is only about Santa Clause. Or get rid of it all. Being inconsistant is bull****.

 

[TenPenny]

Tempers flare over school prayers in Toronto

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/09/18/18702961.html

In Toronto there is a public school system and a separate school system, which is operated by the Catholics.

Toronto taxpayers have their choice of either their tax dollars supporting one or the other.

Prayers in public schools are not necessary and if parents feel strongly about prayer in the schools then they should get their kids enrolled the separate school system.

Why should the RC church get special treatment? Have one system, and if you don't like it, stay home.

 

[ironsides]

I have no objection to prayer or a moment of silence before school. What is wrong with enforcing a kid to shut up for a minute to reflect on what they will do that day. Doesn't have to be prayer, doesn't have to be religious.

 

[captain morgan]

Why should the RC church get special treatment? Have one system, and if you don't like it, stay home.

Catholicism is not mentioned once in the article.

I have no objection to prayer or a moment of silence before school. What is wrong with enforcing a kid to shut up for a minute to reflect on what they will do that day. Doesn't have to be prayer, doesn't have to be religious.

No doubt, but there are no lack of do-gooders that will object to your suggestion just because they can.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I am curious as to how the arguement would stand up to a constitutional challenge though.

What argument do you mean, that prayer should, or should not, be allowed in a supposedly secular public school system? The constitution guarantees Catholics the right to operate their own school systems, it was part of the deal to get the predominantly Catholic French-speaking minority to accept the original terms of confederation, but otherwise the constitution hasn't much to say about religion.There's certainly nothing like U.S. constitution's establishment clause in it.

 

[SLM]

What argument do you mean, that prayer should, or should not, be allowed in a supposedly secular public school system? The constitution guarantees Catholics the right to operate their own school systems, it was part of the deal to get the predominantly Catholic French-speaking minority to accept the original terms of confederation, but otherwise the constitution hasn't much to say about religion.There's certainly nothing like U.S. constitution's establishment clause in it.

Charter challenge I should have said I guess; freedom of religion.

 

[Goober]

Charter challenge I should have said I guess; freedom of religion.

No way - The SCOC will not alter the terms that were agreed to.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Interesting idea, though I suppose it'd depend on the precise nature of the challenge. Freedom of religion just means you're free to practice whatever religion you want, assuming of course that its rituals and practices don't include doing things that are illegal in other contexts, but it doesn't mean the state is obliged to provide facilities for you. Toronto Muslims, for instance, don't have the right to insist the school board provide space for their prayer rituals, it's been granted them as a privilege. I don't really see this as a matter of religious rights, it's just convenient and newsworthy for the antagonists to spin it in those terms. The school board has allowed some of its facilities to be used for a particular purpose that some people see as incommensurate with the goals and ideals of public education, or perhaps Canadian society more generally, and they want it stopped. I think they're right in this particular case, the separation of males and females and denying menstruating girls the right to participate because they're considered unclean are not consistent with what I'd consider reasonable expectations of equality and privacy, and a secular public institution should not be enabling them.

 

[petros]

Freedom of Religion means just that. Freedom of Religion. There is nothing to complain about if every can practise freely or choose not to participate.

How does it get any freer for a child than to let them choose a religion by it's practises and beliefs being expressed in an open society?

Just keep that **** out of Gov.

 

[SLM]

No way - The SCOC will not alter the terms that were agreed to.

I'm not refering to the Catholic school system if that's what you mean by agreed to terms. If that's not what you meant, see below (half of those in this thread are talking about the Catholic School System and the other are talking about the contents of the article, so forgive me but I'm not sure which one you're talking about, lol)

Interesting idea, though I suppose it'd depend on the precise nature of the challenge. Freedom of religion just means you're free to practice whatever religion you want, assuming of course that its rituals and practices don't include doing things that are illegal in other contexts, but it doesn't mean the state is obliged to provide facilities for you. Toronto Muslims, for instance, don't have the right to insist the school board provide space for their prayer rituals, it's been granted them as a privilege. I don't really see this as a matter of religious rights, it's just convenient and newsworthy for the antagonists to spin it in those terms. The school board has allowed some of its facilities to be used for a particular purpose that some people see as incommensurate with the goals and ideals of public education, or perhaps Canadian society more generally, and they want it stopped. I think they're right in this particular case, the separation of males and females and denying menstruating girls the right to participate because they're considered unclean are not consistent with what I'd consider reasonable expectations of equality and privacy, and a secular public institution should not be enabling them.

Doesn't it always depend on the precise nature of the challenge? I think the charter just says that everyone has the fundamental freedom to conscience and religion; the interpreation of which is the job of the SCC to decide based on specific situations as they are contested.

Admittedly, I do not know if there has been any sort of precedent set before with this type of situation, specifically prayer in schools. And I'm not saying that I believe the state has any obligation to provide facilities to facilitate any religious practice or anything like that. But the adherence to the Muslim faith, as I understand it and I could be wrong, necessitates prayer at certain times of the day doesn't it? So if compliance with the tenets of the faith conflicts with school schedules and the school board does not provide some sort of allowance for the prayers (by setting aside some sort of place and time for prayer to occur), could this be construed as a barrier to freedom of religion?

I'm not saying that it is or isn't, I'm just wondering. I'm not making the argument but it seems to me that an argument could possibly be made.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

. But the adherence to the Muslim faith, as I understand it and I could be wrong, necessitates prayer at certain times of the day doesn't it? So if compliance with the tenets of the faith conflicts with school schedules and the school board does not provide some sort of allowance for the prayers (by setting aside some sort of place and time for prayer to occur), could this be construed as a barrier to freedom of religion?

No, I wouldn't say so, the state and its agents are under no obligation to accommodate such practices. Muslim teachings recognize that Muslims may be in circumstances in which the daily cycle of prayer cannot be performed as specified, so they make allowances and provide for alternative practices when necessary. Religious freedom is not the issue here.

 

[TenPenny]

Catholicism is not mentioned once in the article.

I gather that, while you read the article, you managed to not read the original post.

 

[captain morgan]

I gather that, while you read the article, you managed to not read the original post.

I did read the OP.

Am I to guess that because Liberalman simply mentioned that the Separate School System exists, they should therefore be attacked?

Out of curiosity, why didn't you go on the offensive relative to the Muslim community having those terrible and horrible religious practices? Is that just reserved for RC's?

 

[taxslave]

Charter challenge I should have said I guess; freedom of religion.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion

 

[gerryh]

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion

Actually, no it doesn't. But you go ahead and keep twisting shyte to fit your own agenda.