Tory Charter of Rights attitude 'shocking'

Cliffy said:

Hmm! All your references are from Cons. What have they got against human rights? What have you got against human rights? Is it because a Liberal brought them into existence? Or is it just Trudeau that gives Cons a limp dick?

Click to expand...

I don't have a thing against human rights. In fact, my respect for human rights is the reason I have nothing but scorn for the Charter......heres why:

1. The Charter is famed as a "living document" that is flexible and changes with the times.
A real Bill of Rights is a DEAD document, unchangeable except through a difficult amendment process, and always interpreted in light of the intentions of those who authored the document. A document that is changeable, open to interpretation, is mushy, ansd no defense.........cotton, if you will, used as armour instead of cold hard unyielding steel.

2. The Charter sets out special rights for special groups.
That does not even require comment, it is so ludicrous.

3. The Charter pretends rights are granted by gov't, instead of being inalienable truths.........a dangerous view indeed!

4. The Charter enshrines a method to remove rights.....the notwithstanding clause.

The Charter is a damned bad joke, a monument to the infinite ego and ignorance of that arsehole Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

we were better off without it.

And I like the concept of written constitutions.

My personal take is that because neither the constitution or the charter were put to a referendum by the people, neither has any legal authority. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Quebec ratified the constitution so it really isn't a legal document that binds the country. Meech Lake and Charlottetown were failures and since Mulroney shelved it, it is not worth the paper it is printed on. I think that one of the reasons it is worthless is because Canada was transformed from a country to a corporation about that time and is now traded on the New York stock exchange. We do not live in a democracy and the government is not much more than a board of directors. The PM is not even the CEO of this corporation.

In an open society we have a constant conflict reconciling rights and freedom with
the prevailing opinions of the day. The Conservatives don't like the charter and the
reason is simple, the charter gives rights to people that cannot be altered by the
simple application of law, they are subject to a challenge as rights are enshrined
in the constitution.
The Conservatives want to deal with law and order as they want it to be while every
one else wants to deal with law and order in accordance with reality.
As such Harper wants you to have rights on his ideological terms and we want rights
as defined by the charter.

It's the property issue that pisses them off.

I was just thinking of a business model. We would print undesirable Articles of the Charter onto rolls of toilet paper and call it Charterpaper, or CP for short. Any takers?

damngrumpy said:

In an open society we have a constant conflict reconciling rights and freedom with
the prevailing opinions of the day. The Conservatives don't like the charter and the
reason is simple, the charter gives rights to people that cannot be altered by the
simple application of law, they are subject to a challenge as rights are enshrined
in the constitution.
The Conservatives want to deal with law and order as they want it to be while every
one else wants to deal with law and order in accordance with reality.
As such Harper wants you to have rights on his ideological terms and we want rights
as defined by the charter.

Click to expand...

And I don't like the Charter because it gives criminals more rights than their victims, which is also one of many reasons I had absolutely no use for Mr. Trudeau, another is squandering the money of his subjects. :smile:

JLM said:

And I don't like the Charter because it gives criminals more rights than their victims, which is also one of many reasons I had absolutely no use for Mr. Trudeau, another is squandering the money of his subjects. :smile:

Click to expand...

How so?

petros said:

How so?

Click to expand...

You mean how much so? About $400 billion in debt. Don't tell me you liked the A$$hole! :lol:

I was talking about the rights issue.

petros said:

I was talking about the rights issue.

Click to expand...

And what is right (correct) about them? :lol:

Machjo said:

I was just thinking of a business model. We would print undesirable Articles of the Charter onto rolls of toilet paper and call it Charterpaper, or CP for short. Any takers?

Click to expand...

Come to think of it, that would still include at least two articles that come to my mind, and maybe a couple more beyond that, just to make sure not all squares have the same article otherwise it could get boring.

petros said:

I was talking about the rights issue.

Click to expand...

Official Bilingualism for one. Just Google:

Official Language policies of the Canadian Provinces costs and benefits in 2006 pdf

I like Scott Reid's proposal of regional bilingualism (i.e. official bilingualism in local communities where numbers warrant), which is reasonable.

JLM said:

And what is right (correct) about them? :lol:

Click to expand...

You don't want them?

Colpy said:

3. The Charter pretends rights are granted by gov't, instead of being inalienable truths.........a dangerous view indeed!

4. The Charter enshrines a method to remove rights.....the notwithstanding clause.

Click to expand...

The Notwithstanding clause is my main problem with the document. It effectively means 'you have these rights unless we say you don't'. Trudeau should never have agreed to it. It made the whole thing useless.

As for the 'inalienable truths' portion that would be a philisophical argument. The government/state tends to have a monopoly on force and they usually dont care to argue about such things.

It's no different in the US where the Constitution can be suspended.

From a man that understands real human rights.....

"The most important minority group in any society is the individual, and what matters is that Canadian citizens have equality before the law as Canadian citizens," .........Mark Steyn


Why Mark Steyn won't be celebrating the charter anniversary - Politics - CBC News

The Charter is worse than useless......

The Court of Appeal did at least correct one error made by the lower court: It correctly held that the bylaw violated citizens’ rights to freedom of expression under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Freedom of expression includes the right not to express oneself in a particular language. “Freedom consists in an absence of compulsion,” they wrote, quoting the Supreme Court of Canada.
But then, astonishingly, they said the violation was justified under Section 1 of the Charter — the section that allows governments to violate fundamental freedoms if the violations are “reasonable limits … demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”

Click to expand...

The language police come to Ontario | Full Comment | National Post

Colpy said:

Why Mark Steyn won't be celebrating the charter anniversary - Politics - CBC News

Click to expand...

Why? because he's a fu cking useless tit.

gerryh said:

Why? because he's a fu cking useless tit.

Click to expand...

If by "useless tit" you mean a brilliant and insightful commentator on world events, and a tireless defender of liberty and free speech, then I would agree.



My post immediately below yours proves he is completely correct about the Charter.