Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Dexter Sinister

#121

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by alleywayzalwayz

Nice alley: I am criticizing those who conclude that man and ape are of common ancestry because I believe they are misinterpreting the evidence.

Fair enough, that's a perfectly legitimate starting point. What do *you* think the evidence points to? And remember you have to consider ALL the evidence, fossils are just a tiny bit of it and not particularly critical. Darwin managed to figure out the basics of evolution with no fossils at all, but from observations of living things.

Dexter Sinister

#122

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Once humans developed intelligence, the evolution froze up completely... Once one species develops intelligence, most of the evolution comes to an abrupt end.

You're labouring under some pretty basic misconceptions here Sir Joe. It's true that our technology shields us to a large extent from a lot of things that would be selection pressures under more "natural" conditions, like predation and disease, but it's a mistake to suggest evolution has ground to a halt. A relatively small fraction of humanity lives at the level of shelter and protection we in the West do, but there are still selection pressures on us. Some of them we've probably created ourselves with our technology, and our predatory ways with the planet are certainly strong selection pressures on every other living thing. The main driver of evolution is differential reproductive success. As long as not everybody lives to reproduce, you can take it as given that there are selection pressures still operating.

SirJosephPorter

#123

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Oh, I can understand that there may be some minor evolution (e.g. we may lose the appendix or the tail bone some day), Dexter (like the case I mentioned of African female elephants without the tusks). However, for the proper evolution to take place, the environment has to change slowly or after a catastrophic change (like a meteor striking the earth), must be stable for a long time.

With humans changing the environment all the time, I don’t see how any species will have the time to evolve. It may be possible o some remote pacific islands but these days even many remote parts in Asia and Africa are touched by the progress.

My opinion is that when there is intervention on a massive scale, such as damming the rivers, clear cutting the forests, draining the swamps, such environment is not conducive to evolution, but only to the destruction of the species.

Again, there may well be evolution of the smaller species such as ants, insects, even frogs. But do you really think that big mammals such as elephant, rhinos, lions etc, are evolving into something different at this moment? They are trying t keep their numbers sustainable, let alone evolve into something else.

AnnaG

#124

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Oh, I can understand that there may be some minor evolution, Dexter

Minor evolution? lmao I think evolution is a bit like death, either you are dead or not. So either you evolve or you don't.

Quote:

(like the case I mentioned of African female elephants without the tusks.

I bet African female elephants don't think it's minor. lmao

Quote:

However, for the proper evolution to take place, the environment has to change slowly or after a catastrophic change (like a meteor striking the earth), must be stable for a long time.

Proper evolution? Is that as opposed to IMproper evolution? lmao

Quote:

With humans changing the environment all the time, I don’t see how any species will have the time to evolve. It may be possible o some remote pacific islands but these days even many remote parts in Asia and Africa are touched by the progress.

There's a time limit on evolution now? roflmao

Quote:

My opinion is that when there is intervention on a massive scale, such as damming the rivers, clear cutting the forests, draining the swamps, such environment is not conducive to evolution, but only to the destruction of the species.

wow, what a dismally vacuous idea of what evolution is.

Quote:

Again, there may well be evolution of the smaller species such as ants, insects, even frogs. But do you really think that big mammals such as elephant, rhinos, lions etc, are evolving into something different at this moment? They are trying t keep their numbers sustainable, let alone evolve into something else.

Elephants aren't evolving quickly enough so they will likely die off from starvaton or something. They are really poor in the efficiency department when it comes to food processing. Not so sure about rhinos and lions, but I suspect that rhinos may die off unless something can be done about poaching them.
You try reading more rather than standing in front of mirrors and primping.

Dexter Sinister

#125

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

...do you really think that big mammals such as elephant, rhinos, lions etc, are evolving into something different at this moment?

Sure, why wouldn't they be? They're under selection pressures, every living thing is, all the time, that's the nature of the process. It didn't stop simply because intelligence came onto the scene and started making more dramatic changes than nature usually does. Your knowledge of evolution is pretty sketchy, and I think out of date.

Vanni Fucci

#126

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG

It's a puzzle alright. What's that have to do with anything?

Oh I don't know...

You were talking about dolphins and their intelligence and capacity for adopting "human" traits, and I said to myself, I said "Vanni, what more human trait could there possibly be than the senseless killing of those that are slightly different than yourself"

...and you know what, I think I was right...

Tonington

#127

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

However, for the proper evolution to take place, the environment has to change slowly or after a catastrophic change (like a meteor striking the earth), must be stable for a long time.

There is no such thing as proper evolution. If you try to parametrize it, you will fail. There are more factors involved than you or I could list. We can make general statements, based on what evidence we find, but that is not sufficient to say X will happen only given Z, or Z + Y. It's not that simple.

Quote:

With humans changing the environment all the time, I don’t see how any species will have the time to evolve. It may be possible o some remote pacific islands but these days even many remote parts in Asia and Africa are touched by the progress.

I can see it. It will be species moving into new niches, displacing old species which had foothold. New species are born from current specimens that happen to be better suited.

The problem for us in the near term is that evolution takes time, and humans tend to do things faster than Earth systems can handle. In the future there will be great biodiversity. That doesn't really mean much for us who have to live with dwindling biodiversity, and ecological collapse.

Quote:

My opinion is that when there is intervention on a massive scale, such as damming the rivers, clear cutting the forests, draining the swamps, such environment is not conducive to evolution, but only to the destruction of the species.

So, you can't see any opportunities when the old guard are gone? Why not?

Quote:

Again, there may well be evolution of the smaller species such as ants, insects, even frogs. But do you really think that big mammals such as elephant, rhinos, lions etc, are evolving into something different at this moment? They are trying t keep their numbers sustainable, let alone evolve into something else.

Once upon a time, Dinosaurs were very dominant. Then something happened which favored smaller animals. There's no reason the same thing can't happen again.

How do you know they are not evolving into something else? Unless you're tracking the drift of information coding nucleic acids, I don't see how anyone could claim that evolution is not an ongoing process.

AnnaG

#128

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 9th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Oh I don't know...

You were talking about dolphins and their intelligence and capacity for adopting "human" traits, and I said to myself, I said "Vanni, what more human trait could there possibly be than the senseless killing of those that are slightly different than yourself"

...and you know what, I think I was right...

Well, actually I wasn't giving them human traits, I was recognizing their dolphin traits. But, I am not sure how you could say that they were killing because their prey was slightly different. It seems that even the experts aren't sure why they killed porpoises. Maybe they just went wacko. Maybe they are like orca and have "residents", "nomads" (or transients), and "offshore" types. In the orca, only the tranisents seem to kill things other than fish.

Vanni Fucci

#129

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 10th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG

Well, actually I wasn't giving them human traits, I was recognizing their dolphin traits.

Dolphin traits like eating sushi and playing volleyball?

Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG

But, I am not sure how you could say that they were killing because their prey was slightly different. It seems that even the experts aren't sure why they killed porpoises. Maybe they just went wacko. Maybe they are like orca and have "residents", "nomads" (or transients), and "offshore" types. In the orca, only the tranisents seem to kill things other than fish.

Alright, maybe I was wrong. Maybe dolphins are the klansmen of the sea...

...but they could be...

Cliffy

#130

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 10th, 2009

I would think that with all the toxic waste we dump in the sea and dolphins being at the top of the food chain, they might be suffering from some brain damage or other personality altering effects.

AnnaG

#131

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 10th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Dolphin traits like eating sushi and playing volleyball?

Dolphin traits like having fun. They are smart enough to use tools, so if people give them tools they can't make themselves, they can adapt to using human's tools, too, yup. I can imagine they can eat a lot of things humans do, but whether it's good for them or not, I don't know if they can determine.

Quote:

Alright, maybe I was wrong. Maybe dolphins are the klansmen of the sea...

...but they could be...

Maybe. Nomad orcas eat other cetaceans and they belong to the delphinidae family the same as porpoises and dolphins.

AnnaG

#132

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 10th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

I would think that with all the toxic waste we dump in the sea and dolphins being at the top of the food chain, they might be suffering from some brain damage or other personality altering effects.

There's always that, too but it's unlikely. It's more probable that they have different classes of dolphins like orcinus does.

Cliffy

#133

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 10th, 2009

I was thinking about dump bears where prolonged eating of human garbage tends to make them belligerent.

L Gilbert

#134

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

I was thinking about dump bears where prolonged eating of human garbage tends to make them belligerent.

Someone tries to shoo me away from food, I tend to get a bit belligerent, too. lol

AnnaG

#135

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 12th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

Someone tries to shoo me away from food, I tend to get a bit belligerent, too. lol

Ain't THAT the truth. lmao

Dexter Sinister

#136

Re: Oldest known human ancestor rewrites evolution theories

Oct 12th, 2009

Well, I guess you'd know that better than anyone...

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