Concealed Glaciers Discovered On Mars At Mid-latitudes

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
118
63
45
Newfoundland!
ScienceDaily (Nov. 21, 2008) — Vast Martian glaciers of water ice under protective blankets of rocky debris persist today at much lower latitudes than any ice previously identified on Mars, says new research using ground-penetrating radar on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.


Three Martian craters: the actual surface is on the left, and without debris is on the right. (Credit: NASA, University of Texas at Austin)

Because water is one of the primary requirements for life as we know it, finding large new reservoirs of frozen water on Mars is an encouraging sign for scientists searching for life beyond Earth.

The concealed glaciers extend for tens of miles from edges of mountains or cliffs and are up to one-half mile thick. A layer of rocky debris covering the ice may have preserved the glaciers as remnants from an ice sheet covering middle latitudes during a past ice age.

"Altogether, these glaciers almost certainly represent the largest reservoir of water ice on Mars that's not in the polar caps. Just one of the features we examined is three times larger than the city of Los Angeles, and up to one-half-mile thick, and there are many more," said John W. Holt of The University of Texas at Austin's Jackson School of Geosciences, lead author of a report on the radar observations in the Nov. 21 issue of the journal Science.

"In addition to their scientific value, they could be a source of water to support future exploration of Mars," said Holt.

The gently sloping aprons of material around taller features have puzzled scientists since NASA's Viking orbiters revealed them in the 1970s. One theory contended they were flows of rocky debris lubricated by a little ice. The features reminded Holt of massive ice glaciers detected under rocky coverings in Antarctica, where he has extensive experience using airborne geophysical instruments such as radar to study Antarctic ice sheets.

The Shallow Radar instrument on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter provided an answer to this Martian puzzle, indicating the features contain large amounts of ice.

"These results are the smoking gun pointing to the presence of large amounts of water ice at these latitudes," said Ali Safaeinili, a shallow-radar instrument team member with NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

The radar's evidence for water ice comes in multiple ways. The radar echoes received by the orbiter while passing over these features indicate that radio waves pass through the apron material and reflect off a deeper surface below without significant loss in strength, as expected if the aprons are thick ice under a relatively thin covering.

The radar does not detect reflections from the interior of these deposits as would occur if they contained significant rock debris. Finally, the apparent velocity of radio waves passing through the apron is consistent with a composition of water ice.

Developers of the Shallow Radar had the mid-latitude aprons in mind, along with Mars' polar-layered deposits, long before the instrument reached Mars in 2006.

"We developed the instrument so it could operate on this kind of terrain," said Roberto Seu of Sapienza University of Rome, leader of the instrument science team. "It is now a priority to observe other examples of these aprons to determine whether they are also ice."

The buried glaciers reported by Holt and 11 co-authors lie in the Hellas Basin region of Mars' southern hemisphere. The radar has also detected similar-appearing aprons extending from cliffs in the northern hemisphere.

"There's an even larger volume of water ice in the northern deposits," said the Jet Propulsion Laboratory's Jeffrey J. Plaut, who reported their presence at a science conference earlier this year. "The fact that these features are in the same latitude bands—about 35 to 60 degrees—in both hemispheres points to a climate-driven mechanism for explaining how they got there."

The rocky-debris blanket topping the glaciers has apparently protected the ice from vaporizing as it would if exposed to the atmosphere at these latitudes.

"A key question is 'How did the ice get there in the first place?'" said James W. Head of Brown University.

"The tilt of Mars' spin axis sometimes gets much greater than it is now, and climate modeling tells us that ice sheets could cover mid-latitude regions of Mars during those high-tilt periods," said Head. He believes the buried glaciers make sense as preserved fragments from an ice age millions of years ago.

"On Earth," said Head, "such buried glacial ice in Antarctica preserves the record of traces of ancient organisms and past climate history."
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
[SIZE=+1] Immanuel Velikovsky, a Russian-jewish psychatrist, claimed in one of his thesis on the origin of religious myths, Worlds in Collision (1930), that some sort of great internal convulsions of the planet, at around 1500 BCE, may have caused Jupiter to spew forth (or turn the orbit of) a fiery comet, which fell towards the sun, in a highly eliptical orbit. It passed close to Mars, dragging it out of its orbit and pulling away its athmosphere (and probably it's water), then passed the Earth, causing severe catastrophes, then returning again, after going around the Sun, in a 52 year cycle, causing more havoc. It finally settled in a relatively stable, circular orbit, to become the planet Venus as we know it. One effect which this had on our Earth was that the energy transferred changed our orbital velocity, giving us a 365 1/4 days year rather than a 360 days year, as well as tilting the Earth's axis. The last time that Venus passed perilleously close to Earth was around 750 BCE. From the centuries before this we have many 'mythlogical' tales describing the 'comet-tail' of Mars, formed like a scimitar or a scorpions tail. This was no doubt the remains of the martian atmosphere and water.[/SIZE]
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
118
63
45
Newfoundland!
[SIZE=+1] Immanuel Velikovsky, a Russian-jewish psychatrist, claimed in one of his thesis on the origin of religious myths, Worlds in Collision (1930), that some sort of great internal convulsions of the planet, at around 1500 BCE, may have caused Jupiter to spew forth (or turn the orbit of) a fiery comet, which fell towards the sun, in a highly eliptical orbit. It passed close to Mars, dragging it out of its orbit and pulling away its athmosphere (and probably it's water), then passed the Earth, causing severe catastrophes, then returning again, after going around the Sun, in a 52 year cycle, causing more havoc. It finally settled in a relatively stable, circular orbit, to become the planet Venus as we know it. One effect which this had on our Earth was that the energy transferred changed our orbital velocity, giving us a 365 1/4 days year rather than a 360 days year, as well as tilting the Earth's axis. The last time that Venus passed perilleously close to Earth was around 750 BCE. From the centuries before this we have many 'mythlogical' tales describing the 'comet-tail' of Mars, formed like a scimitar or a scorpions tail. This was no doubt the remains of the martian atmosphere and water.[/SIZE]

Foolish theory. Comets don't move planets. It's true that a comet passing a planet very closely might alter its orbit, but not by more than a few hundredths of a percent. And no it wouldn't strip mars of its water. Venus never passed anywhere near earth, and definitely not as recently as 250 BCE
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Foolish theory. Comets don't move planets. It's true that a comet passing a planet very closely might alter its orbit, but not by more than a few hundredths of a percent. And no it wouldn't strip mars of its water. Venus never passed anywhere near earth, and definitely not as recently as 250 BCE

You sure about that Herm or are you just exercising a Confirmatory Bias in Science ?

Comets moved quite a bit of Jupiter, on film, just a decade ago. Shoemaker Levi apparently didn't affect your thinking about our solar system at all. Oh and it's 750 BCE.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
118
63
45
Newfoundland!
I know about confirmatory bias. I wouldn't be a scientist if i didn't. The trick isn't not to have it (which is impossible) but to be able to screen it out and/or prevent it from affecting your results.

schumaker-levy 9 moved a BIT of Jupiter. It didn't affect Jupiter's orbit one iota.

If any planet came anywhere near earth in the ten thousand years we'd have evidence of it, so 250 BCE or 750 BCE makes no difference.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
I know about confirmatory bias. I wouldn't be a scientist if i didn't. The trick isn't not to have it (which is impossible) but to be able to screen it out and/or prevent it from affecting your results.

schumaker-levy 9 moved a BIT of Jupiter. It didn't affect Jupiter's orbit one iota.

If any planet came anywhere near earth in the ten thousand years we'd have evidence of it, so 250 BCE or 750 BCE makes no difference.

Like what kind of evidence? Velikovsky was right about the water and the atmosphere and I'm convinced he's right about a lot of the catyclismic history of this solar system which you insist can only happen in the distant past or future but never when it bloody well clearly did and certainly not by comets. ;-)
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
118
63
45
Newfoundland!
Like what kind of evidence? Velikovsky was right about the water and the atmosphere and I'm convinced he's right about a lot of the catyclismic history of this solar system which you insist can only happen in the distant past or future but never when it bloody well clearly did and certainly not by comets. ;-)

so you're telling me there's no evidence to be seen if a planet gets its orbit altered and at the same time you're trying to tell me you KNOW that it was altered in 750 BCE? whoops.

A comet has a mass trillions of times smaller than that of a planet. It just can't affect it very much.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
so you're telling me there's no evidence to be seen if a planet gets its orbit altered and at the same time you're trying to tell me you KNOW that it was altered in 750 BCE? whoops.

A comet has a mass trillions of times smaller than that of a planet. It just can't affect it very much.

I never even attempted to tell you that there would be no evidence, you're grasping at the sides of a slippery funnel. Impact evidence on this planet indicate without doubt that our position has been adjusted many times for diverse reasons. Shumacher Levi would have creamed earth from what was observed of the impact on the gas giant Jupiter. That points directly and irrevicably to the impact history of
all bodies in this system. You're contempt for comets is monumental. They don't have to be big they don't have to be small they can be pretty much any size at all.;-)
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia

LEFT: Hubble Space Telescope view of the plume from Shoemaker-Levy 9
Fragment G impact, appearing around the limb of Jupiter.
RIGHT: Fragment G impact. Image at 2.34 microns with CASPIR by Peter
McGregor ANU 2.3 telescope at Siding Spring

Jul 18, 2005
Deep Impact and Shoemaker-Levy 9
To place the Deep Impact events in perspective, advocates of the electric comet model remind us of the crash of the comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 into Jupiter in 1994.
For some time now the electrical theorists have noted that the institutionalization of scientific inquiry, in combination with funding requirements, has encouraged a short attention span. The things that do not fit prior theory elicit a momentary expression of surprise, but as the events pass from view they are quickly forgotten. “What we cannot comprehend, we shall forget”.
So it is that already the stupendous explosion produced by Deep Impact—the blast of light that shocked every member of the investigative team—is fading from the consciousness of the investigators. And just two weeks after Deep Impact, all discussion of the equally remarkable advanced flash has ceased. Perhaps none of the NASA scientists knew that the electrical theorists had predicted these events in advance.
Here is an interesting fact. When looking forward to the Deep Impact mission in October 2001, Wallace Thornhill observed: “…the energetic effects of the encounter should exceed that of a simple physical impact, in the same way that was seen with comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 fragments at Jupiter.” We gave the reasoning in our predictions posted early in the day, July 3: The energy of the explosion will not come just from a collision of solid bodies, but will include the electrical contribution of the comet.
Thornhill had not forgotten an earlier surprise, though it appears that no one involved in Deep Impact remembered what happened when comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 approached Jupiter in the summer of 1994. Astronomers expected the encounter to be a trivial event. “You won’t see anything. The comet crash will probably amount to nothing more than a bunch of pebbles falling into an ocean 500 million miles from Earth.” Then came the encounter and an about face. As reported by Sky & Telescope, “When Fragment ‘A’ hit the giant planet, it threw up a fireball so unexpectedly bright that it seemed to knock the world’s astronomical community off its feet.” So a brief summary of some of those earlier events are provided below. For a more detailed article see Comet Tempel 1's Electrifying Impact.
The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) detected a flare-up of fragment “G” of Shoemaker-Levy long before impact at a distance of 2.3 million miles from Jupiter. For the electrical theorists this flash would occur as the fragment crossed Jupiter’s plasma sheath, or magnetosphere boundary. Thornhill comments: “A plasma sheath, or ‘double layer’, is a region of strong electric field, so the outburst there of an electrified comet nucleus is expected. The outburst was a surprise to astronomers. Hubble’s Faint Object Spectrograph (FOS) recorded strong emissions from fragment ‘G’ of ionized magnesium but no hydroxyl radical (OH), expected from water ice”. Also, after the flare-up in magnesium emissions there was a “dramatic change in the light reflected from the dust particles in the comet”. All told, the similarities to the Deep Impact flash are remarkable.
Just after the impact of SL-9 fragment “K”, HST detected unusual auroral activity that was brighter than Jupiter’s normal aurora and outside their normal area. Radiation belts were disrupted. There were unexpectedly bright X-ray emissions at the time of impact. But one mystery was never explained satisfactorily: Early impact events were hidden from the Earth behind Jupiter’s limb. However, the Galileo spacecraft was positioned 150 million miles away from Jupiter at an angle that gave it a ringside seat for these events. But Earth-based observatories saw some of the impacts start at the same time Galileo did. “In effect, we are seeing something we didn’t think we had any right to see,” said Dr. Andrew Ingersoll of Caltech. “...it seems clear that something was happening high enough to be seen beyond the curve of the planet,” said Galileo Project scientist Dr. Torrence Johnson of JPL.
None of these discoveries is surprising if comets are highly electrically charged with respect to their environment. Radio astronomers had expected radio emissions from Jupiter at high frequencies to drop because dust from SL-9 fragments would absorb electrons from the radiation belts, where the electrons emit synchrotron radiation. Instead, observers were surprised to find that emissions around 2.3 GHz rose by 20-30%. “Never in 23 years of Jupiter observations have we seen such a rapid and intense increase in radio emission,” said Michael Klein of JPL. “Extra electrons were supplied by a source which is a mystery.” It never occurred to anyone that the charged comet was the source of the electrons.
Will the rapid exclusion of uncomfortable facts continue as we await data analysis of Deep Impact? In tomorrow’s Picture of the Day, we shall list the urgent questions yet unanswered as NASA officials have fallen into silence, even withdrawing much of the visual material formerly available on the Deep Impact website.
See also:
Jul 05, 2005 Deep Impact—First Impressions
Jul 06, 2005 Reconsidering Comet Wild 2
Jul 07, 2005 The Meaning of Deep Impact
Jul 08, 2005 Deep Impact—The Smoking Guns?