Pharmacists want power to prescribe; doctors worry about patient safety

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The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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By Lisa Arrowsmith

EDMONTON (CP) - Pharmacists in several provinces, wanting to do more than just count out pills, are pushing for the power to prescribe medications and play a more meaningful role in their patients' health care.

But some physicians' groups caution that allowing pharmacists to write prescriptions without consulting a doctor could harm those very patients.

In Alberta, the change will be allowed under legislation expected to take effect on April 1.

While they won't be allowed to write prescriptions for narcotics or steroids, Alberta pharmacists will be able to refill existing prescriptions and provide emergency supplies of previously prescribed medication.

Some will be able to prescribe for chronic diseases if they meet additional requirements that are being determined by regulators.

"I think job satisfaction is probably one of the biggest things, and being less restricted and being able to do our job much more easily," said pharmacist Will Leung, who owns the Strathcona Prescription Centre in Edmonton.

Widening the scope of practice is the buzz in the industry right now, said Jeff Poston of the Canadian Pharmacists Association, which is developing an action plan to prepare for the shifting role.

"You need to define new practice models, you need to look at legal and regulatory changes and liability issues, you need to look at education and training and financial viability and sustainability," Poston said from Ottawa.

"We're looking at the development of programs to really support pharmacists to change their practice in order that patients can get better outcomes from drug therapy, better access to patient care."

One argument pharmacists make is that the number of family physicians is dwindling and the shortage is much tougher in rural areas, where pharmacists may be one of the only health professionals in a community.

"The answer clearly is to train and license more family doctors, and there are measures underway to do that," said Dr. Colin McMillan, president of the Canadian Medical Association (CMA).

"But it won't change things overnight."

The association doesn't endorse the idea of pharmacists writing prescriptions.

But if they do get that power, McMillan said provincial officials will need to make sure that patients consent to it, that patient records are maintained and that pharmacists disclose any potential conflict of interest, since they also sell the medication they would be prescribing.

One of the problems doctors have with the idea is that pharmacists aren't trained in the critical art of diagnosing, said Dr. Trevor Theman, registrar of the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons.

"The piece here that's missing, as far as we know, for pharmacists is that they're not trained in clinical diagnosis, they're not trained to examine patients, they're not trained to integrate all that information," said Theman.

New Brunswick pharmacists have also announced that they want to be able to prescribe medications independently, arguing that their role in the health-care system is evolving as society's dependence on medication increases.
In Manitoba, the government recently passed legislation that would allow pharmacists to prescribe some medications and order and receive diagnostic tests.
Regulations that spell out the specifics are still in the works but could be implemented sometime in 2007.
Ronald Guse, registrar of the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association, said some of his members are already pushing the envelope in some cases by extending existing prescriptions.
"What pharmacists are doing now to meet the need of the patient, under professional judgment, are stretching the law a bit," he admitted.
"As a licensing authority you don't want to have to put practitioners or pharmacists in a position to break the law to provide the care a patient needs. Under the new act, that will be the authority of the pharmacist."
Final approval of standards to qualify Alberta pharmacists to administer injections and manage drug therapies for chronic conditions is expected in early 2007, said Greg Eberhart, registrar of the Alberta College of Pharmacists.
Back at his pharmacy, Will Leung hopes eventually to offer flu vaccinations and inoculations for customers who are travelling overseas - something the medical clinic next door does for about $20 per patient.
"I think it's really going to provide patients with easier access to another health-care professional who might be able to help them a little more readily and a little more quickly," he said.
But expanding their practice isn't for everybody, said Barry Cavanaugh, chief executive officer of the Alberta Pharmacists Association.
"Some have said, for example, that there are some services they just don't want to try to provide because they just don't see how they could accommodate it within their existing patient load and the volume of their pharmacy."


Copyright © 2007 Canadian Press
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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Nice thought but I wouldn't go for it personally

Some medications have been finely tuned to work in concert with the specific needs or biologic/neurologic processes of the patient.

The patient's physician (in most cases) is privy to this information. The pharmacist is not. I would go along with a pharmacist's recommendations regarding a new product but would still wait for a scrip from the doc.

Too many people get a dangerous cocktail going which doesn't help but actually increases their problems rather than alleviating them.

What is "underreported" in some people are the numbers of natural herbal concoctions they are also taking which could interact with pharmaceuticals in a nasty way.

We are more careful with the gas and oil we put into our cars than what we put into our bods.
 

TenPenny

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I like the idea that a pharmacist, who makes more money the more he/she sells, will be able to prescribe medicines. That's a great idea, because there would be no way that a pharmacist would lean toward prescribing an expensive or unnecessary drug, just to make more sales, would they? After all, no business owner would ever encourage a customer to buy something more expensive than they needed, would they?

There is a reason that doctors are NOT PERMITTED to own drug stores.
 

Sassylassie

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I like the idea that a pharmacist, who makes more money the more he/she sells, will be able to prescribe medicines. That's a great idea, because there would be no way that a pharmacist would lean toward prescribing an expensive or unnecessary drug, just to make more sales, would they? After all, no business owner would ever encourage a customer to buy something more expensive than they needed, would they?

There is a reason that doctors are NOT PERMITTED to own drug stores.


LOL well stated TenPenny, I concur. :wave:
 

L Gilbert

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You have a point there, but ........ when my vitnry prescribes something for me I end up asking the pharmacist all about it. Docs know what drugs are sposed to fix what but they haven't a clue what drugs conflict with others, the side effects, etc.
 

TenPenny

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You have a point there, but ........ when my vitnry prescribes something for me I end up asking the pharmacist all about it. Docs know what drugs are sposed to fix what but they haven't a clue what drugs conflict with others, the side effects, etc.
I wouldn't say they don't have a clue, but that IS the area of expertise of pharmacists. That's the way the system is supposed to work.
 

Sparrow

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Nov 12, 2006
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I agree that this would be a good idea. Doctors study pharmacology but it is only part of their course. Whereas a pharmacist learns more. In my case, my pharmacist has had to call my family doctor and emergency doctors to change the prescriptions either due to allergies or other medication that I am not allowed to take. All this information was buried my medical file but doctors do not always have the time to search through it. I have to be careful with medication and I trust my Pharmacist more than my doctor.
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
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I trust my pharmacist better than some ER docs. Ive been prescribes codine after Ive TOLD them Im allergic and my pharmacist caught it. Ive also been prescribed drugs that interact with lithium and the pharmacist caught it.
 

Kreskin

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Feb 23, 2006
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I like the idea. Too many "doctor" appointments are for baloney stuff like renewing prescriptions. I'd rather they be available for more pressing medical matters.
 

Zzarchov

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A doctor (despite me filling out the little form) very recently prescribed me a form of penicillin, which if i had taken I would have died. Thankfully my pharmacist went over this with me and saved my life.

I know which one I'd trust more. Doctors go to post secondary education in the same manner as the rest of us, and squeek by the same way. That should put the fear in ya.
 

L Gilbert

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A doctor (despite me filling out the little form) very recently prescribed me a form of penicillin, which if i had taken I would have died. Thankfully my pharmacist went over this with me and saved my life.
Glad yer still kickin. :)

I know which one I'd trust more. Doctors go to post secondary education in the same manner as the rest of us, and squeek by the same way. That should put the fear in ya.
And pharmacists don't get post-sec education like the rest of us, nor do they squeak the same way?
The thing is that doc's biz is figuring out what's wrong with you, the druggie's job is to give you the stuff you need to fix what's wrong. I wouldn't go to a plumber about an electrical problem.
 

selfactivated

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Glad yer still kickin. :)

And pharmacists don't get post-sec education like the rest of us, nor do they squeak the same way?
The thing is that doc's biz is figuring out what's wrong with you, the druggie's job is to give you the stuff you need to fix what's wrong. I wouldn't go to a plumber about an electrical problem.

Perfectly put!


Zzarchov "glad your kicken" too
 

Zzarchov

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The thing is, thats what you are doing with a doctor.

Doctors are no be all know alls. Most of the time they make educated guesses about what it PROBABLY is. Whats worse, as people expect them to know everything, they tend to pretend they do.

This isn't a doctor specific thing. I work in IT and I run into that alot, if you are a "computer guy" (or gal) in a company people with no technical knowledge will come up to you and ask for advice about something not at all in your field, and more often then not I watch these people give bad advice because they refuse to be seen as anything other than all knowing.

This happens in pretty much every proffession I'd wager. The difference being doctors kill people doing it, In IT you just ruin some expensive equipment.

And the same doctors who I knew in school (and thats how I know how they studied) will flat out tell me this is how it is. The amount of things requiring a "Doctor" to sign for is riiculous.

Most Doctors are not qualified to write most prescriptions or treat most ailments. If they tried to become a Nurse or a Pharmacist they would fail.

to go back to construction.

Most Doctors are General Handymen, you do not need them to supervise the work of a plumber in plumping, a carpenter in carpentry or an architect in designing the blue prints.

Their job is to look at what you want done, and send you to the correct proffessional to treat your problem (ie, send you to a carpenter to do woodwork)

Most Pharmacists will simply be better educated and equiped to write prescriptions than the Doctor.

The Doctor should diagnose the illness, and then send you to a pharmacist to for an appopriate drug to prescribe for that condition. If a Doctor could do everything he would have to wear blue tights and a cape.
 

TenPenny

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The thing is, thats what you are doing with a doctor.

Doctors are no be all know alls. Most of the time they make educated guesses about what it PROBABLY is.

Exactly. And how do they get the information? From what YOU tell them. So you'd better be able to give some useful info. "I don't feel so good" or "I'm not myself" doesn't help much. GIGO. If you expect to get useful advice, please, please give useful information. What is wrong, where does it hurt? Don't try to hide something like drug use or overeating; it's YOU that gets shortchanged in the end. Be frank, honest, and as accurate as you can be when you talk to your doctor. He/She doesn't actually care what you do, he/she only wants facts so they can figure out what's going on. Are you having sex with 29 people a week? Your doctor doesn't care, except as far as it impacts your health. Anal sex with a goat? Who cares. Believe me, your doctor only wants to know in order to understand your symptoms. Cocktail party conversation is NOT high on the priority list. It's only to add up the evidence to understand.
 

Zzarchov

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Exactly. And how do they get the information? From what YOU tell them. So you'd better be able to give some useful info. "I don't feel so good" or "I'm not myself" doesn't help much. GIGO. If you expect to get useful advice, please, please give useful information. What is wrong, where does it hurt? Don't try to hide something like drug use or overeating; it's YOU that gets shortchanged in the end. Be frank, honest, and as accurate as you can be when you talk to your doctor. He/She doesn't actually care what you do, he/she only wants facts so they can figure out what's going on. Are you having sex with 29 people a week? Your doctor doesn't care, except as far as it impacts your health. Anal sex with a goat? Who cares. Believe me, your doctor only wants to know in order to understand your symptoms. Cocktail party conversation is NOT high on the priority list. It's only to add up the evidence to understand.


I think your missing the point.

The pharmacist doesn't diagnose you. The pharmacist gives you medication based upon what the doctor diagnosed you with. Example, In manitoba they can't diagnose you, just send you to be diagnosed (ie by a doctor) and write prescriptions for the ailment you have been diagnosed with.

Pharmacists know drugs at least as well and almost always better than doctors. Its their specialization versus a general field of knowledge a doctor holds.
 

Sparrow

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Nov 12, 2006
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After my experiences I would feel more confident if my doctor would diagnose, with tests where necessary then write the diagnosis on a piece of paper that I can give to my pharmacist so that he can give me the medication I need. I also agree that it is very important to tell your doctor the truth with SPECIFIC symptoms.
 

tracy

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I have a lot of respect for pharmacists and their knowledge base. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the pharmacist catch problems before they caused harm to patients. They are invaluable!!! I would have no problem going to a pharmacist to refill a prescription I've been on that doesn't require any fine tuning. I mean really, how long do I have to use the same form of birth control before I should be able to do that without a doctor's signature?. I really think things like that are a bit of a racket. I have a $200 office visit to get a refill for the birth control I've been using without any problems for over 5 years.
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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What a load of generalizations here....

There are good/bad doctors and good/bad pharmacists - so?

There are also good/bad patients.

Doctors are bound by ethic/law to see a patient routinely if prescribing medications for various reasons.

That the patient is still taking the meds as prescribed and to measure if the meds are necessary or are
still helping....That the patient has not crossed into addiction...That the patient wasn't just doctor shopping....That the patient isn't selling the meds to others or abusing them...

A doctor has to upgrade his/her records on all patients taking prescription meds to see if the meds are still necessary, if they should be strengthened, or of a new med has become available which might be
a better treatment.....

I wouldn't trust a doctor who writes a scrip, hands it over and continually refills with no face to face consultation within a regular period of time.... yes even birth control.....

Medications have side effects... people's reaction to meds change over time....some meds become useless and ineffective......

A smart consumer of prescription drugs takes the scrip to a reputable pharmacist, checks on the internet or gets an up to date PDR in the library and studies it.... nobody should accept prescriptions without doing their own homework..especially long term medication.... and expecting a new med to have a trial run and if it isn't doing the job... find out why.

Maybe Canadian doctors are not bound by law to monitor their patients...but the doctors in the U.S. are.
Maybe it's about the "money" as some have written..... but maybe some are actually being responsible and following the law.
 

tracy

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You really think my doctor does any monitoring to prescribe my birth control?

Our visits go something like this:

"Hi Christine, just need a refill on the Depo"
"Sure. Any problems?"
"Nope."
"OK, here's the script, the nurse will be in to give you the shot in a minute. Good to see you again, have a good sleep." (I always have appointments after my night shift and before bed).

I like my doctor. I think she's really a good doc and value her knowledge and training when I am actually sick, but I also think those visits are a waste of time and money. They are required so we do them, but the notion that she's doing some sort of actual assessment that requires a doctor's expertise each time is just silly. Just so you know, there are birth control pills that can be obtained without a face to face visit with a doctor or PA or NP in the US. Mine is an injection, so it requires an office visit. Often the decisions for what can be available over the counter and what can't are somewhat arbitrary. That's why you can get some things without a prescription in the US that would require a prescription in Canada and vice versa.