Hydrogen Fuel Technology

I think not

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WASHINGTON - Scientists, inventors and entrepreneurs will be able to vie for a grand prize of $10 million, and smaller prizes reaching millions of dollars, under House-passed legislation to encourage research into hydrogen as an alternative fuel.

Legislation creating the "H-Prize," modeled after the privately funded Ansari X Prize that resulted last year in the first privately developed manned rocket to reach space twice, passed the House Wednesday on a 416-6 vote. A companion bill is to be introduced in the Senate this week.

"This is an opportunity for a triple play," said bill sponsor Rep. Bob Inglis, R-S.C., citing benefits to national security from reduced dependence on foreign oil, cleaner air from burning pollution-free hydrogen and new jobs. "If we can reinvent the car, imagine the jobs we can create."

"Perhaps the greatest role that the H-Prize may serve is in spurring the imagination of our most valuable resource, our youth," said co-sponsor Rep. Dan Lipinski, D-Ill.

The measure would award four prizes of up to $1 million every other year for technological advances in hydrogen production, storage, distribution and utilization. One prize of up to $4 million would be awarded every second year for the creation of a working hydrogen vehicle prototype.

The grand prize, to be awarded within the next 10 years, would go for breakthrough technology.

"Prizes can draw out new ideas from scientists and engineers who may not be willing or able to participate in traditional government research and development programs, while encouraging them, rather than the taxpayer, to assume the risk," said Science Committee Chairman Sherwood Boehlert, R-N.Y.

Inglis said the Department of Energy would put together a private foundation to set up guidelines and requirements for the prizes. Anyone can participate, as long as the research is performed in the United States and the person, if employed by the government or a national lab, does the research on his own time.

He said the prize would not take away funds from any federal hydrogen programs, including the $1.7 billion hydrogen research program that President Bush first detailed in 2003.

The Energy Department announced earlier this year that it would provide $119 million in funding for research into hydrogen fuel cells, including $100 million over the next four years to projects to improve components of fuel cell systems.

Several automakers have made advances in hydrogen fuel cell technology or dual gas-hydrogen engines, but such vehicles are still very expensive and there's no viable infrastructure of fueling stations.

The bill is H.R. 5143

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060510/ap_on_sc/hydrogen_prize
 

gc

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May 9, 2006
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RE: Hydrogen Fuel Technol

Currently hydrogen comes from oil, so developing the technology will not reduce dependance on oil.
What we should do is figure out how to catalyze the production of hydrogen from water using sunlight.
 

Finder

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I believe, from what I read is that Hydrogen cells have more energy output from the fosile fuels then the fuel it is made from. Thus you are still using less resources to make the power.
 

gc

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May 9, 2006
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RE: Hydrogen Fuel Technol

I think not,

Hydrogen IS the most abundant element in the universe, but it is not the most abundant element on earth. And almost all of the hydrogen on earth is tied up in the form of water, hence the need to find a way to release that hydrogen from water. Hydrogen is a gas and is basically non-existant in the earth's atmosphere. It can however be produced from oil, since oil contains hydrogen atoms (oil = hydrocarbons).
Finder may have a point, maybe it is more efficient than burning oil, I'd have to look that up, but at best it would only slow the consumption of oil.
 

gc

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May 9, 2006
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Re: RE: Hydrogen Fuel Technology

dekhqonbacha said:
can hydrogen be taken from water?

In a sense, yes...but it takes energy to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. The same amount of energy is released when hydrogen and oxygen are turned back into water. And since it is never 100% efficient this is not practical. However, sunlight can be used as the energy source to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. Then the energy you get back when they recombine to form water can be used to power whatever you like. So in a sense, hydrogen simply acts as a temporary storage of energy that comes from the sun. But in order to have, say, a car run on solar power is impractical. It could however run on hydrogen that is indirectly run on solar power. At present though, the process of turning water into hydrogen and oxygen from sunlight is not very efficient, and I believe more research should be done on this area. Also, storing hydrogen is another problem since it is a gas and not very dense, not to mention explosive, but research in this area has also made some progress.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Hydrogen

can be separated from from water by electrolysis. It can be separated from natural gas. It can be taken from oil.

None of these are particularly efficient. I've always thought that using our hydro dams during off load hours to get hydrogen from water by electrolysis was a good idea, but hydrogen is difficult to store in useful quantities. There is work being done on metal hydride storage systems, among others, but as yet, the cost is prohibitive.
 

dekhqonbacha

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I was thought that hydrogen taken from water is difficult to use safely. Once it enters the reaction, the result usually is enormous. Using it as subtitude for gas was not secure.

Like, hyrogen bomb exist by Hyrogen Reactor does not, comparativly to nuclear energy.

When I was reading your posts, I noticed that hyrogen can be taken from oil and it wouldn't make any difference wether we use gas, taken from oil, or hyrogen, taken also from oil. It surprised me.
 

#juan

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Jay,

I would say a water-powered car is a hoax. In my working life I rather depended on the laws of thermodynamics being inviolable. I see no reason to change that thinking.
 

#juan

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I would like to hear Dexter's views on water powered cars

While surfing the web for Hydrogen fuel technology, I ran accross many items on fuel cells. I happen to know that currently, fuel cells are just too unGodly expensive for use in automobiles. The rare element, platinum, is an important material in the construction of fuel cells because of it's catalytic properties, A good part of the current fuel cell research is working towards reducing the amount of platinum used.
 

#juan

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At least some of the new thinking

for automobiles, is that batteries are one of the most efficient methods of storing energy when all is considered. The energy required to acquire hydrogen, plus the energy wasted in using that hydrogen make even the lead/acid battery attractive by comparison.
 

Dexter Sinister

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#juan said:
I would like to hear Dexter's views on water powered cars

Simply stated: no such thing. There are a lot of hoaxers out there making extravagant claims, like Denny Klein on that video Jay provided the link to. He's using hydrogen as fuel, not water. He appears to get the hydrogen by dissociating water via electrolysis in that big blue-green box he's seen pouring water into, then mixing the resulting hydrogen and oxygen gas in a torch.

Klein's claim that his test vehicle can go 100 miles on four ounces of water is patently absurd. There's not enough energy in the combustion of that little bit of hydrogen to power a car that far. That's clearly a hybrid vehicle; he may be mixing hydrogen gas into the fuel injectors along with gasoline, and maybe he uses the hydrogen from four ounces of water in 100 miles so the claim may be strictly true, but hydrogen's not the only thing he's burning on that trip.

I especially liked where he grabbed the tip of the torch to demonstrate that it stays cool, then claimed no other gas will do that. Wrong. The combustion happens just beyond the tip of the torch, so that's where the heat is, not inside the nozzle. Compressed gas, as it expands, cools very rapidly. Ever noticed how cold a spray can gets? Same effect cools the nozzle of any such torch. Otherwise, oxyacetylene welding and cutting torches wouldn't work, the nozzles would melt. That's a dramatic but essentially fraudulent demonstration.

Somebody claims to have invented a water-powered car every few years. There was a guy in Australia named Steve Horvath who duped a lot of investors a few years ago, and an American named Stanley Meyer who was convicted of fraud about a decade ago on the same scam. This stuff goes back at least to 1935, to a Texan name Henry Garrett.

Bottom line: don't invest in anyone who claims to have a water powered car. He's lying or deluded.
 

#juan

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Oh gosh!

Do you mean the oil companies aren't covering up the little pills that you can add to water to make gasoline? :wink: :p


Thanks Dexter
 

Dexter Sinister

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#juan said:
Do you mean the oil companies aren't covering up the little pills ...

No, I don't think they're covering up that :wink: but I don't think they're really very interested in conservation either. They're interested in maintaining demand for their products.