Source of Consciousness

Source of Consciousness

socratus

#1Oct 12th, 2011

Source of Consciousness
=.
Does evolution begin on big bang level?
Does evolution begin on the quarks level?
In our earthly world there is only one fundamental
particle - electron
Does evolution begin on the electron’s level?
Can an electron evolve?
Does an electron have consciousness ?
Energy is electromagnetic waves (em): E=h*f
Lorentz proved: there isn’t em waves without Electron
It means the source of these em waves must be an Electron
The electron and the em waves they are physical reality
Can evolution of life begin on electron’s level?
=.
Molecular biology & molecular evolution
Cosmology & cosmic evolution
If Universe evolve can electron evolve too ?
Does evolution of life begin on electron level ?
Origin of life is a result of physical laws that govern Universe
Electron takes important part in this work
Question:
Why does the simplest particle - electron have six formulas:
E=h*f e = +ah*c e = -ah*c +E=Mc^2 -E=Mc^2 E= ∞ ?
Nobody knows
Question:
Why does electron obey five ( 5) Laws ?
a) Law of conservation and transformation energy/ mass
b) Maxwell’s equations
c) Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle / Law
d) Pauli Exclusion Principle/ Law
e) Fermi-Dirac statistics
Nobody knows.
====.
Quote by Heinrich Hertz on Maxwell's equations:

"One cannot escape the feeling that these mathematical formulae
have an independent existence and an intelligence of their own,
that they are wiser than we are, wiser even than their discoverers,
that we get more out of them than was originally put into them."
==.
Ladies and Gentlemen !
Friends !
Electron is not as simple as we think and, maybe, he is wiser than we are.
==========.
Israel Sadovnik Socratus
========.

socratus

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

Comment by Frank Steve
=.
The Electron Conscious?
At first glance this seems to be a rather senseless question.
But then IONS founder has been known to ask “Does the Universe Perceive?
The first is a micro question that implies the macro nature of the latter.
So here is my reasoning. If electrons of an oxygen atom enter and
then mysteriously leave their emergent atomic fields of manifestation
in precise femtosecond timing …and then instantly change their
enter-exit frequencies when their atoms nucleus combines

with two hydrogen atoms to form water … how do they know how …
and when to do this instantaneous switch?
So the question is really two questions:
1 – Do electrons possess dynamic states of awareness?
2 – If so, are they also conscious … i.e. comparative reasoning?
3 – And if they do possess limited spans of conscious,
do they self-control their reactive behaviors?
/ Frank Steve /

Comment by awori achoka .

This is interesting...critical events and phenomena,
in the universe are determined by occurrences at the
elemental level, through biochemical processes or changes
in energy states.
These events will occur with or without human intervention
or perception....ie, we don't to have to know for the universe
to exist... and breathe.
So, is the universe aware of our existence?
And does it matter that we exist?
/ awori achoka --

darkbeaver

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by socratus

Comment by Frank Steve
=.
The Electron Conscious?
At first glance this seems to be a rather senseless question.
But then IONS founder has been known to ask “Does the Universe Perceive?
The first is a micro question that implies the macro nature of the latter.
So here is my reasoning. If electrons of an oxygen atom enter and
then mysteriously leave their emergent atomic fields of manifestation
in precise femtosecond timing …and then instantly change their
enter-exit frequencies when their atoms nucleus combines

with two hydrogen atoms to form water … how do they know how …
and when to do this instantaneous switch?
So the question is really two questions:
1 – Do electrons possess dynamic states of awareness?
2 – If so, are they also conscious … i.e. comparative reasoning?
3 – And if they do possess limited spans of conscious,
do they self-control their reactive behaviors?
/ Frank Steve /

Comment by awori achoka .

This is interesting...critical events and phenomena,
in the universe are determined by occurrences at the
elemental level, through biochemical processes or changes
in energy states.
These events will occur with or without human intervention
or perception....ie, we don't to have to know for the universe
to exist... and breathe.
So, is the universe aware of our existence?
And does it matter that we exist?
/ awori achoka --

They say that we are sensory appendages of the universe, all life that is. The awareness of the universe is total and instantaneous. Whatever exists matters. earth air fire and water Old physics is still physics. There is nothing new anywhere in the universe and there is no escape, ever.

socratus

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

Not By Chance the Existence Began.

The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys
at random on a -- for an infinite amount of time
will -- type a given text, such as the complete works
of --.
The -- of a monkey exactly typing a complete work such
as Shakespeare's -- is so tiny that the chance of it occurring
during a period of time of the order of the --
is extremely low, but not zero.
. . . . .
If there are as many monkeys as there are particles in the
-- . . . . the probability of the monkeys replicating
even a short book is nearly zero.

--

It means that by chance it is impossible to create
Intellect Existence during 13 - 20 billions of years
after ‘big bang’.
The Intellect Existence needs some intellect beginning.
============..
socratus

petros

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by socratus

The Intellect Existence needs some intellect beginning.
============..
socratus

It all started as a reaction to external stimuli.

socratus

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

[/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] It all started as a reaction to external stimuli.

Yes, correct, somebody tickled the God’s heel.

petros

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

How did a reaction progress into a thought?

darkbeaver

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

external stimuli cannot act on a closed system, are we close to discovering the beginning point on the circumference of wheels? The eternal never begins.

Angstrom

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

All living things are a galaxy of its own.

Dexter Sinister

#10

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

For some unknown reason I've never been able to quote socratus and get a post that works. However, he said this:

"It means that by chance it is impossible to create Intellect Existence during 13 - 20 billions of years after ‘big bang’."

To which I'm saying, so what? Nobody who understands biological evolution has ever claimed otherwise, it's always been obvious that chance alone couldn't generate such a convincing appearance of design. It's only the ignorant who try to discredit evolution that way, and the implied conclusion, that there must be a creative intellect that started it all, doesn't follow. It's actually a straw man fallacy.

petros

#11

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

To me a crystal self assemblying it's self to perfect form is just as mind blowing as life.

socratus

#12

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

My conclusion:
=.
We have two opportunities.
One opportunity .
By the Chance it was impossible to create Intellect Existence
during as short time as 13 - 20 billions years after ‘big bang’.
The intelligence could have never appeared By the Chances
according to Theory of Probability (as per the infinite monkey
theorem) because it is not enough time for creating it.
The Evolution (which gave a rise to intelligence ) according
to Theory of Probability By the Chance it is impossible.
It must be some intelligence beginning.
If ‘big bang ’ true theory (and we are materialists ) then we must
find an intellectual beginning inside it.

Now physicists have zoo of elementary particles.
Which of them can take functions of intellectual beginning ?
Can every particle of this zoo have beginning of consciousness?
I think, no.
Why?
Because in our Earthly world there is only one smallest practical
fundamental particle - electron.
Now is possible to ask:
Does evolution begin on the electron’s level?
Does an electron have consciousness ?
Can an electron evolve?
What is an electron?
=.
Second opportunity .
The theory ‘big bang’ is wrong.
And then according to Theory of Probability the Universe has
chance not zero but nearly zero to creat Intellect Existence.

So. Einstein’s question ‘ Does God play dice ? ’ is still open.
====.
Socratus
=======.

Cliffy

#13 Top Rated Post

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 16th, 2011

It would all depend on what you define as intelligence and consciousness. As the old saying goes, "Beam me up Scotty. There is no intelligent life down here."

If consciousness is similar to being self aware, then it is possible that an electron is self aware on an electron scale of consciousness.

If we redefine consciousness other than from our own perspective, intelligence could be present in an electron just as easily as we think we are intelligent (although, as a student of human behaviour, I think that perhaps our belief in our own intelligence may be greatly exaggerated.)

darkbeaver

#14

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 17th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

It would all depend on what you define as intelligence and consciousness. As the old saying goes, "Beam me up Scotty. There is no intelligent life down here."

If consciousness is similar to being self aware, then it is possible that an electron is self aware on an electron scale of consciousness.

If we redefine consciousness other than from our own perspective, intelligence could be present in an electron just as easily as we think we are intelligent (although, as a student of human behaviour, I think that perhaps our belief in our own intelligence may be greatly exaggerated.)

The idea of human dominion in the universe is still very strong in us owing to the evil construct of the Judeo Christian church. Consciousness is a result of proximity and exchange and it does not require biological life. Water molecules are aware of each other. That belief in our omnipotent intelligence is probably the most destructive of human errors in thinking. Physical and mental limitations are routinely disregarded in stupid wasteful expressions of our idiot convictions about human supremacy. We will never ever even plumb the depths of our own ignorance. We simply cannot ever compete with the universal consciousness let alone understand it. All the ingredients of a stew are fully familiarized with each other and when and if the garlic is added every molecule in the pot knows directly the introduced flavour. Because the enhancement is so obvious we might wonder if the garlicless stew had not anticipated the addition and made provision.

Cliffy

#15

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 17th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

The idea of human dominion in the universe is still very strong in us owing to the evil construct of the Judeo Christian church. Consciousness is a result of proximity and exchange and it does not require biological life. Water molecules are aware of each other. That belief in our omnipotent intelligence is probably the most destructive of human errors in thinking. Physical and mental limitations are routinely disregarded in stupid wasteful expressions of our idiot convictions about human supremacy. We will never ever even plumb the depths of our own ignorance. We simply cannot ever compete with the universal consciousness let alone understand it. All the ingredients of a stew are fully familiarized with each other and when and if the garlic is added every molecule in the pot knows directly the introduced flavour. Because the enhancement is so obvious we might wonder if the garlicless stew had not anticipated the addition and made provision.

Agreed. We will probably be undone by our own stupidity. As I have said, the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. That we think we can is a testament to our ignorance and arrogance.

Last edited by Cliffy; Oct 17th, 2011 at 11:14 AM..

darkbeaver

#16

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 17th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Agreed. We will probably be undone by our own stupidity. As I have said, the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. That we think we can is a testament to our ignorance and arrogance.

Redone for me Cliffy, this time around I was a little underdone I think.

Dexter Sinister

#17

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 17th, 2011

Socratus wrote: "The Evolution (which gave a rise to intelligence ) according to Theory of Probability By the Chance it is impossible. It must be some intelligence beginning."

If you'd start your reasoning from correct information you might improve the quality of your conclusions. The understanding of evolution you express there is deeply flawed, and your conclusion is indefensible on that basis. Evolution does not proceed by chance, in fact it's the very opposite of a random process in most of its details.

socratus

#18

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 17th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Agreed.
We will probably be undone by our own stupidity.
As I have said, the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite.
That we think we can is a testament to our ignorance and arrogance.

If infinity doesn’t have physical parameters then you are correct.
If infinity has some physical parameters then situation is another.

Omicron

#19

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 17th, 2011

I have plenty of thoughts on this issue, but let's take it one step at a time.

Pretend you had no memory.

Would you still be "conscious"?

socratus

#20

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 19th, 2011

Book ‘ The trouble with Physics’ / by Lee Smolin /
Part 8. The first superstring revolution.
Page 126 – 127.
‘. . . the growing catalog of string theories meant that
we weren’t actually studying a fundamental theory.’ . . .
‘ . . . but the many versions of string theory opened up
the possibility that it was true of essentially all the
properties of the elementary particles and forces. This would
mean that properties of the elementary particles were
environmental and could change in time. If so, it would mean
that physics would be more like biology, in that the
properties of the elementary particles would depend on the
history of our universe. ‘
( These thoughts would lead to a 1992 paper titled ‘ Did the
Universe Evolve?’ and a 1997 book called
‘ The Life of the Cosmos.’ Our story later turns on these ideas.)

Lee Smolin.
--

==.

Cliffy

#21

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 19th, 2011

If you spend all of your life focused on an electron, you will miss the big picture.

What does string theory have to do with the multiverse? How does a conscious electron manage to be in more than one place at the same time?

I think we will find that the universe, or multiverse, has evolved with the evolution of our own thought processes, that the complexity of the multivers is directly connected to our capacity to comprehend such complexity.

Try that on for size!

socratus

#22

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 19th, 2011

Book: What is your dangerous idea?
/ Edited by John Brockman /
Article:
Seeing Darwin in the light of Einstein;
Seeing Einstein in the light of Darwin.
/ by Lee Smolin. /
===.
Seeing Einstein in the light of Darwin suggests that
natural selection could act not only on living things
but on the properties defining the various species
of elementary particles.
/ Page 115 /
We physicists have now to understand Darwin’s lesson:
The only way to understand how one out of a vast number
of choices was made, which favors improbable structure,
is that is the result of evolution by natural selection.
/ Page 117 /
Now the only possible way of accounting for the laws of nature,
and for uniformity in general, is to suppose them results of evolution.
/ Page 117 /
And I believe that once this is achieved, Einstein and Darwin
will be understood as partners in the greatest revolution
yet in science, . . .
/ Page 118 /

/ Lee Smolin. /
--
======.
Questions.
1
On which biological level is it possible to use phrase:
Darwinian natural selection, Darwin’s evolution ?
2
On which biological level does consciousness appear ?.
==.

petros

#23

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 19th, 2011

Is a thought a wave, a particle or both like a photon?

darkbeaver

#24

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 19th, 2011

longitudinal force?

Smolin is a Big Banger that means, conclusively, that he deals exclusively with really bad fiction that passes in the consumer market as cutting edge science all the while being the worst rubbish ever considered in this and the last century. Spin the wheel, play celebrity science guy, win a bag of unicorn dung.

Cliffy

#25

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

Is a thought a wave, a particle or both like a photon?

Yes. Reality is what you think it is.

At one time, people believed in unicorns and to some degree unicorns were in their reality, so were dragons.
For the same reason, Satan is alive and well in Christianity today. In societies where Satan has never been introduced, it doesn't exist.

Human thought and belief has evolved (or devolved, depending on your perspective). Our reality is very different than the reality of those living in the dark ages or in the caves because our thought processes are different. They change and morph over time. A thousand years from now, the Earth will be a very different place because we will either be able to comprehend more complex principles or we will have eliminated ourselves from the landscape because we could not evolve further.

darkbeaver

#26

Re: Source of Consciousness

Oct 19th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Omicron

I have plenty of thoughts on this issue, but let's take it one step at a time.

Pretend you had no memory.

Would you still be "conscious"?

I don't have to pretend all the time now. Ya the memory what about that stuff eh. Where is it kept? The head seems like a bad place. Why not the arse? Isn't carrying fat storing a memory anyway?

socratus

#27

Re: Source of Consciousness

Dec 17th, 2011

Try using QM to explain the "conscious *of* " feature.
I say it's doomed from the start, since consciousness
will always lie outside or beyond its object.
/ Kalkidas /
QM and consciousness may have some deep connection, but it
would take some truly funky mathematics to capture the relation.
/ Craig Franck /
=.
1
We have brushes, paints, canvas - they are tools.
The picture is not created by the paint and brush.
It is result of idea, information, consciousness.
The idea of painting is lie outside or beyond its object.
2
We have atoms, complex atoms.
From them were created everything.
The idea (consciousness) of creating cell, molecules
of DNA, body must lie outside or beyond its object too.
3
Where in the Universe we can find the world which
lie outside or beyond the visual material world?
The Universe as whole is Two - Measured World:
one Reference Frame is the Matter World
and another Reference Frame is the Vacuum World.
But today physicists know the Matter world and refuse to think
and understand the Vacuum world because the Vacuum is
Infinite and Eternal continuum.
Why do physicists refuse to take vacuum as a fundament of Universe?
Book : ‘Dreams of a final theory’ by Steven Weinberg. Page 138.
‘ It is true . . . there is such a thing as absolute zero; we cannot
reach temperatures below absolute zero not because we are not
sufficiently clever but because temperatures below absolute zero
simple have no meaning.’
/ Steven Weinberg. The Nobel Prize in Physics 1979 /
4.
We are surrounded by Double Universe.
Quantum Theory says about wave–particle duality.
Our brain works on dualistic basis:
(as a logical consciousness and as an illogical (?) unconsciousness)
There are another kinds of dualities: matter and field,
matter and energy / force, body and mind / consciousness .
We are surrounded by the duality.
=.
Socratus.

Cliffy

#28

Re: Source of Consciousness

Dec 17th, 2011

Most people are lucky if they only have a dual personality. Most, like the Universe, are actually multi. If you have ever had a serious head injury, you will have possibly experienced reality shifts corresponding to shifts in consciousness associated with damaged wiring in the brain. Nerves and brain cells can rejuvenate but nerves can rewire themselves wrong. For instance, when I get a mosquito bite on my back it itches on my chest (right upper quadrant only) caused by sudden impact and sever nerve damage. At that time I also sustained sever head trauma that scramble parts of my brain. I went through nearly twenty years of shifting in and out of what most people call reality. I discovered that reality is far more subjective than objective, that is it subject to conscious observation, that different states of consciousness can create different realities. Reality became very fluid instead of solid. The ramifications of such experiences turns scientific and religious thought inside out and life takes on dimensions that most people could not handle. I learned to consciously change realities that were frightening into pleasant ones just by changing my mind.

So, anyway, until science can be that fluid, it will never understand how reality actually works and all their theories will remain just theories. Reality is not solid so it can only be measured by someone who chooses to be in the the same state as the object being measured. Now, there is a concept to wrap your minds around.

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