A Mad Mulligan
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June 2nd, 2007, 12:40 AM
Who remembers Dave's rant on the "Product" being less than stellar among street prositutes? Wasn't that one of the times he got banned by jON?
Who remembers Dave's rant on the "Product" being less than stellar among street prositutes? Wasn't that one of the times he got banned by jON?
Member
Posts: 64
Location: SK
Location: SK
June 2nd, 2007, 04:48 AM
I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Here's the problems I have with legalization:
1. Logistics. Not only are you going to have to go through the process and costs of getting the prostitutes licenced, you're also going to have to pay the ongoing costs of having people to administer the system to make sure that the rules (valid licenses, mandatory testing, etc.) are all being followed. And that won't come cheap.
2. There is really no good balance to how long they should go between tests. If they have to go too often, then it puts another big burden on our already fragile public health care system (unless, of course, you privatized this for them and made them pay for it, but that's a whole other discussion). If they go too long, then the more people could possibly become infected if the prostitute does indeed become infected with an STD. And how many of those johns are going to be exclusive to that prostitute? Maybe 1 or 2 at most, others would be using other prostitutes as well, exposing them to possible infection and also possibly having sex with those not in the field, which brings the public danger.
3. Career perception and sustainability. Removing the stigma from it does make it seem "not so bad" in some people's eyes, and in a sense almost makes it so at least a few would consider it a career option. Personally I think people should aspire to become doctors, teachers, business people, construction workers, tradespeople, or pretty much anything else instead of prostitutes.
Also, on the subject of sustainability, two things come into mind. The first is, what if a prostitute were to become infected with and STD and had their licence revoked...then what? And don't say to use safe sex practices, because while they are somewhat effective at prevention they are not 100% guaranteed to work. So, because they have little training in other fields, they basically go into the "underground" scene where all the dangers apply again. My second point would be this...I almost think one could compare it to a career as a pro athlete, it doesn't last very long. The big difference between the two is I can't imagine any prostitute pulling down multi-millions a year to be set for life like an athlete would. And at the risk of sounding like a jerk, think of the mind of any random guy who would go out looking for a prostitute. Now, being fickle, how many of them are going to choose the decent looking, new to the scene 20 year old over the aged and worn 35-40 year old? The vast majority, so these other prostitutes wouldn't be making the type of money you would consider to be an income that could sustain a decent quality of life.
4. Nobody has really said anything to what the psychological effects are of the trade amongst those who provide it. But without any numbers, I'd bet that if they did a study on prostitutes before they started, and a few years after they started, that the vast majority would show that their psychological welfare has decreased significantly since they started. Why? Because how many of these prostitutes, regardless of the legality, would have a great level of self-esteem/personal satisfaction with themselves, knowing that this is what they do for a living. My guess would be not a lot.
Just something to chew on.
I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Here's the problems I have with legalization:
1. Logistics. Not only are you going to have to go through the process and costs of getting the prostitutes licenced, you're also going to have to pay the ongoing costs of having people to administer the system to make sure that the rules (valid licenses, mandatory testing, etc.) are all being followed. And that won't come cheap.
2. There is really no good balance to how long they should go between tests. If they have to go too often, then it puts another big burden on our already fragile public health care system (unless, of course, you privatized this for them and made them pay for it, but that's a whole other discussion). If they go too long, then the more people could possibly become infected if the prostitute does indeed become infected with an STD. And how many of those johns are going to be exclusive to that prostitute? Maybe 1 or 2 at most, others would be using other prostitutes as well, exposing them to possible infection and also possibly having sex with those not in the field, which brings the public danger.
3. Career perception and sustainability. Removing the stigma from it does make it seem "not so bad" in some people's eyes, and in a sense almost makes it so at least a few would consider it a career option. Personally I think people should aspire to become doctors, teachers, business people, construction workers, tradespeople, or pretty much anything else instead of prostitutes.
Also, on the subject of sustainability, two things come into mind. The first is, what if a prostitute were to become infected with and STD and had their licence revoked...then what? And don't say to use safe sex practices, because while they are somewhat effective at prevention they are not 100% guaranteed to work. So, because they have little training in other fields, they basically go into the "underground" scene where all the dangers apply again. My second point would be this...I almost think one could compare it to a career as a pro athlete, it doesn't last very long. The big difference between the two is I can't imagine any prostitute pulling down multi-millions a year to be set for life like an athlete would. And at the risk of sounding like a jerk, think of the mind of any random guy who would go out looking for a prostitute. Now, being fickle, how many of them are going to choose the decent looking, new to the scene 20 year old over the aged and worn 35-40 year old? The vast majority, so these other prostitutes wouldn't be making the type of money you would consider to be an income that could sustain a decent quality of life.
4. Nobody has really said anything to what the psychological effects are of the trade amongst those who provide it. But without any numbers, I'd bet that if they did a study on prostitutes before they started, and a few years after they started, that the vast majority would show that their psychological welfare has decreased significantly since they started. Why? Because how many of these prostitutes, regardless of the legality, would have a great level of self-esteem/personal satisfaction with themselves, knowing that this is what they do for a living. My guess would be not a lot.
Just something to chew on.
Time Out
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June 2nd, 2007, 08:18 AM
Actually as I stated years ago in said thread I'm very much in favor of legalised prostitution. And actually have in the past had prostitutes as friends. The only reason jON banned me for that, was, it was jON *sniffles*. And whilst talking about the buisness I refered to it and used the term product for certain aspects of the buisness.. Which it is.
Now let me ask the people here.Is it demeaning to prostitutes to say that one would like to see them treated fairly,be protected,and not abused in selling their product.
For that is exactly what got me banned. and now you trying to reach out from like the worst aspects of the vine and hit me with it again , in a thread in a galaxy so far away from that hellhole is sooooo unfy do...but i still love and adore you ....
Quoting Unforgiven
Your reaching unf...You can't really remember even how it was used...dude you should have gone to bed long before this act of desperation.By the by your becoming very tedious in the quest.
Who remembers Dave's rant on the "Product" being less than stellar among street prositutes? Wasn't that one of the times he got banned by jON?
Actually as I stated years ago in said thread I'm very much in favor of legalised prostitution. And actually have in the past had prostitutes as friends. The only reason jON banned me for that, was, it was jON *sniffles*. And whilst talking about the buisness I refered to it and used the term product for certain aspects of the buisness.. Which it is.
Now let me ask the people here.Is it demeaning to prostitutes to say that one would like to see them treated fairly,be protected,and not abused in selling their product.
For that is exactly what got me banned. and now you trying to reach out from like the worst aspects of the vine and hit me with it again , in a thread in a galaxy so far away from that hellhole is sooooo unfy do...but i still love and adore you ....
House Member
Posts: 3,093
June 2nd, 2007, 09:12 AM
I find most of the arguements against prostitution seem to center on how prostitution is bad.
No one is arguing that.
Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.
So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.
The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?
I find most of the arguements against prostitution seem to center on how prostitution is bad.
No one is arguing that.
Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.
So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.
The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?
Time Out
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June 2nd, 2007, 09:25 AM
Why do you consider it bad? On what grounds, moral, religous? It's a trade like any other. Albiet a trade that takes a certain person to want to enter.
Now the enter issue is a whole other story. Due to the nature of who is controlling it, there is a plethora of sex slaves, appernatly even in Canada. which is just another reason for it to be legalised and let it evolve as a viable buisness.
Quoting Zzarchov
I find most of the arguements against prostitution seem to center on how prostitution is bad.
No one is arguing that.
Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.
So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.
The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?
No one is arguing that.
Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.
So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.
The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?
Why do you consider it bad? On what grounds, moral, religous? It's a trade like any other. Albiet a trade that takes a certain person to want to enter.
Now the enter issue is a whole other story. Due to the nature of who is controlling it, there is a plethora of sex slaves, appernatly even in Canada. which is just another reason for it to be legalised and let it evolve as a viable buisness.
Time Out
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June 2nd, 2007, 09:30 AM
Let me quote William Blake here:
"Prisons are built on bricks of the law,Brothels are built on bricks of religion."
Just remember it's few hundred years old now, and writtten in England.
Let me quote William Blake here:
"Prisons are built on bricks of the law,Brothels are built on bricks of religion."
Just remember it's few hundred years old now, and writtten in England.
A Mad Mulligan
Posts: 2,870
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June 2nd, 2007, 10:02 AM
Some make huge bank while others make just enough to get by. Such is life eh.
You do sound a bit like a jerk for referring to some mindset of a guy, but I understand the point you are trying to make here. Women use prostitutes too and so it's not as gender based as one might think. As well I would suggest that the mindset is one of someone who wants to get off and have some fun without the strings of a relationship or fretting over the nuances of the dating scene. It's the stereotype that attaches a stigma to things and once you educate and remove the fears, the stereotype falls away and along with it the stigma.
There will always be someone who falls through the cracks and will work the street without abiding any regulations due to other problems like addiction, abuse, mental health issues and so on. And rather than a punitive approach, one of harm reduction should be considered to get the issues resolved and I would suggest the majority of people who consistently remain at that level would be minimal.
Self esteem is a mental health issue that spans all walks of life and age groups. Regulating this industry would allow for a level of scrutiny never before seen and some real answers to the problems that are ripe within it could be examined and addressed. But I suggest that should the stigma be removed, a livable wage set as a mandatory requirement and good working conditions with people you like, you would not have any more problem with self esteem than anyone in any other profession.
You've raised some really good points here. Nicely done.
Quoting unspoken
Like other licensing, you pay a fee to cover the costs of the process. Through bordello licensing and other fees the various costs are covered. Don't forget vice brings in a lot of sin tax as well. So the costs of administrating this whole things isn't going to come even close to what will be collected from it.
I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Here's the problems I have with legalization:
1. Logistics. Not only are you going to have to go through the process and costs of getting the prostitutes licenced, you're also going to have to pay the ongoing costs of having people to administer the system to make sure that the rules (valid licenses, mandatory testing, etc.) are all being followed. And that won't come cheap.
1. Logistics. Not only are you going to have to go through the process and costs of getting the prostitutes licenced, you're also going to have to pay the ongoing costs of having people to administer the system to make sure that the rules (valid licenses, mandatory testing, etc.) are all being followed. And that won't come cheap.
Quote:
Many people pay for their own medical tests such as professional drivers, People working in the adult film industry must produce a medical certificate in order to work and all of these concerns are already dealt with effectively there. So I see no reason that it wouldn't apply in this case as well. The brothel that the worker operates out of would be obligated to ensure all standards are being met by the workers and open to inspection like any other business that is regulated by the government.
2. There is really no good balance to how long they should go between tests. If they have to go too often, then it puts another big burden on our already fragile public health care system (unless, of course, you privatized this for them and made them pay for it, but that's a whole other discussion). If they go too long, then the more people could possibly become infected if the prostitute does indeed become infected with an STD. And how many of those johns are going to be exclusive to that prostitute? Maybe 1 or 2 at most, others would be using other prostitutes as well, exposing them to possible infection and also possibly having sex with those not in the field, which brings the public danger.
Quote:
I agree but then who would take the garbage to the dump, clean up the operating rooms and wash dishes in restaurants? It takes all kinds to make the world go around and while this is already going on regardless of the position in med school or law school, or whatever employment people aspire to, some of them are going to use prostitution to get the money to pay for it and support themselves while they do that.
3. Career perception and sustainability. Removing the stigma from it does make it seem "not so bad" in some people's eyes, and in a sense almost makes it so at least a few would consider it a career option. Personally I think people should aspire to become doctors, teachers, business people, construction workers, tradespeople, or pretty much anything else instead of prostitutes.
Quote:
Well I would say first off that many STDs are treatable. So that there would be a time they couldn't work but once finished the course of treatment and pronounced cured by a physician, the worker can go back to work. I would go further to suggest that should there be a need then a portion of the wages from each worker could be collected much like employment insurance to cover the missed days of work due to this sort of occurrence.
Also, on the subject of sustainability, two things come into mind. The first is, what if a prostitute were to become infected with and STD and had their licence revoked...then what? And don't say to use safe sex practices, because while they are somewhat effective at prevention they are not 100% guaranteed to work. So, because they have little training in other fields, they basically go into the "underground" scene where all the dangers apply again. My second point would be this...I almost think one could compare it to a career as a pro athlete, it doesn't last very long. The big difference between the two is I can't imagine any prostitute pulling down multi-millions a year to be set for life like an athlete would. And at the risk of sounding like a jerk, think of the mind of any random guy who would go out looking for a prostitute. Now, being fickle, how many of them are going to choose the decent looking, new to the scene 20 year old over the aged and worn 35-40 year old? The vast majority, so these other prostitutes wouldn't be making the type of money you would consider to be an income that could sustain a decent quality of life.
Some make huge bank while others make just enough to get by. Such is life eh.
You do sound a bit like a jerk for referring to some mindset of a guy, but I understand the point you are trying to make here. Women use prostitutes too and so it's not as gender based as one might think. As well I would suggest that the mindset is one of someone who wants to get off and have some fun without the strings of a relationship or fretting over the nuances of the dating scene. It's the stereotype that attaches a stigma to things and once you educate and remove the fears, the stereotype falls away and along with it the stigma.
There will always be someone who falls through the cracks and will work the street without abiding any regulations due to other problems like addiction, abuse, mental health issues and so on. And rather than a punitive approach, one of harm reduction should be considered to get the issues resolved and I would suggest the majority of people who consistently remain at that level would be minimal.
Quote:
You know, I think again that it returns to getting rid of the stigma attached to the profession. Some people wash out of law because of the high pressure it exerts upon them. But that isn't to say we should get rid of that profession.
4. Nobody has really said anything to what the psychological effects are of the trade amongst those who provide it. But without any numbers, I'd bet that if they did a study on prostitutes before they started, and a few years after they started, that the vast majority would show that their psychological welfare has decreased significantly since they started. Why? Because how many of these prostitutes, regardless of the legality, would have a great level of self-esteem/personal satisfaction with themselves, knowing that this is what they do for a living. My guess would be not a lot.
Just something to chew on.
Just something to chew on.
Self esteem is a mental health issue that spans all walks of life and age groups. Regulating this industry would allow for a level of scrutiny never before seen and some real answers to the problems that are ripe within it could be examined and addressed. But I suggest that should the stigma be removed, a livable wage set as a mandatory requirement and good working conditions with people you like, you would not have any more problem with self esteem than anyone in any other profession.
You've raised some really good points here. Nicely done.
Satelitte Radio Addict
Posts: 869
Location: Toronto, ON
Location: Toronto, ON
June 2nd, 2007, 10:11 AM
Quoting Zzarchov
Bad is subjective. It obviously has a place in our society and has since the dawn of time. So whether you legalize it or not, it will still be there. The only question is damage control, managability, and taxation/benifits. All 3 point to legalization as the better way to go. Treat it exactly like a job.
I find most of the arguements against prostitution seem to center on how prostitution is bad.
No one is arguing that.
Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.
So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.
The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?
No one is arguing that.
Whats up for debate, is that since its going on full blown anyways, whats better : Legalised prostitution or the current system.
So comments about the damage prostitution has on prostitutes, or the morality of it is absolutely inconsequential. That would imply the debate is whether or not prostitution should happen. Obviously it shouldn't happen.
The debate is that since it is happening and we can't even reduce it, how should it be managed?
Super Genius
Posts: 1,352
Location: Calgary
Location: Calgary
June 2nd, 2007, 04:08 PM
Quoting unspoken
There were some ER ellipsoids about a surgeon that had aids. I am not sure what the final resolution was. Anyway, there is probably virtually no risk if the service provided is hand jobs with the use of gloves and condoms. I suspect different clubs would have different licensing requirements based on the services provided.
Also, on the subject of sustainability, two things come into mind. The first is, what if a prostitute were to become infected with and STD and had their licence revoked...then what? And don't say to use safe sex practices, because while they are somewhat effective at prevention they are not 100% guaranteed to work.
Member
Posts: 242
Location: Vancouver
Location: Vancouver
June 4th, 2007, 01:19 PM
Quoting DocDred
I would be interested to see the stats on who really does... since they don't get a T4 or anything, they can make up whatever income they wish to declare?
they already have to pay taxes and income...Thats one of the ironies of our stupid laws. It's ilegal to soliciate sex ...but if you get paid for sex you have to declare it as income.
Newbie
Posts: 18
Location: In a house.
Location: In a house.
June 6th, 2007, 07:11 AM
The derogatory result of prostitution is the encouragement that sex is only a bodily function. Anyone who experiences it as such has a pathology. We need to encourage people to view sex as an act of intimacy. Anything less is harmful to the individual and eventually to society as a whole. It is not a morality issue, it is a mental health issue.
Quoting Pangloss
Couldn't disagree more. Legalizing prostitution is to give the stamp of approval to sex without a shred of intimacy. To increase the proliferation of such pathological thinking would be incredibly irresponsible!
I have yet to read a single argument that convinces me it is anything but exactly the right thing to do to utterly legalize prostitution. With no more regulation than that which surrounds a bar or restaurant. Public health, minimum age and safety - after that, back off.
The business of the state, and of you moralizers (I mean that in a very bad way) has nothing to do with my personal life, including my sexuality.
For anyone to say the state should keep prostitution illegal is to say that what I do with my penis is their business.
I must emphatically demand you take your hands - and nose - out of my pants.
If I make an agreement to do something with another person, and that agreement is freely entered into, and there is no third party harm (beyond what one can reasonably expect in a city) - then what exactly is your justification in making this any of your business?
That is a serious question, and I'd love an answer.
Speak to me not of the ills of prostitution, those are almost entirely caused by the illegal nature of the trade (see the prohibition against liquor, for example) and the shame and humiliation placed on the sex trade workers by the religious.
For shame, prohibitionists - your attitudes and politics are what is beating, maiming and killing these workers.
Pangloss
The business of the state, and of you moralizers (I mean that in a very bad way) has nothing to do with my personal life, including my sexuality.
For anyone to say the state should keep prostitution illegal is to say that what I do with my penis is their business.
I must emphatically demand you take your hands - and nose - out of my pants.
If I make an agreement to do something with another person, and that agreement is freely entered into, and there is no third party harm (beyond what one can reasonably expect in a city) - then what exactly is your justification in making this any of your business?
That is a serious question, and I'd love an answer.
Speak to me not of the ills of prostitution, those are almost entirely caused by the illegal nature of the trade (see the prohibition against liquor, for example) and the shame and humiliation placed on the sex trade workers by the religious.
For shame, prohibitionists - your attitudes and politics are what is beating, maiming and killing these workers.
Pangloss
The derogatory result of prostitution is the encouragement that sex is only a bodily function. Anyone who experiences it as such has a pathology. We need to encourage people to view sex as an act of intimacy. Anything less is harmful to the individual and eventually to society as a whole. It is not a morality issue, it is a mental health issue.
A Mad Mulligan
Posts: 2,870
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June 6th, 2007, 07:23 AM
Quoting Deafening Silence
Says you. But in your decree of insanity for all those who have sex other than with someone they are in a deep and meaningful relationship with you over look all the problems that do the damage in uneducated sexual activity. Which sounds a lot like a lack of experience and too much theory.
Couldn't disagree more. Legalizing prostitution is to give the stamp of approval to sex without a shred of intimacy. To increase the proliferation of such pathological thinking would be incredibly irresponsible!
The derogatory result of prostitution is the encouragement that sex is only a bodily function. Anyone who experiences it as such has a pathology. We need to encourage people to view sex as an act of intimacy. Anything less is harmful to the individual and eventually to society as a whole. It is not a morality issue, it is a mental health issue.
The derogatory result of prostitution is the encouragement that sex is only a bodily function. Anyone who experiences it as such has a pathology. We need to encourage people to view sex as an act of intimacy. Anything less is harmful to the individual and eventually to society as a whole. It is not a morality issue, it is a mental health issue.
House Member
Posts: 3,093
June 6th, 2007, 11:31 AM
2.) Mental health also includes the need to get sex. If someone does not get sex they go insane. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. So, if you honestly are trying to use mental health then sex is just a bodily function. Intimacy is also needed, but thats a higher level need (and lower level needs must be met first).
So yes, Sex with intimacy is better than just sex, But intamacy and no sex is not feasible, sex is required.
Quoting Deafening Silence
1.) If its a mental health issue its already going on.
Couldn't disagree more. Legalizing prostitution is to give the stamp of approval to sex without a shred of intimacy. To increase the proliferation of such pathological thinking would be incredibly irresponsible!
The derogatory result of prostitution is the encouragement that sex is only a bodily function. Anyone who experiences it as such has a pathology. We need to encourage people to view sex as an act of intimacy. Anything less is harmful to the individual and eventually to society as a whole. It is not a morality issue, it is a mental health issue.
The derogatory result of prostitution is the encouragement that sex is only a bodily function. Anyone who experiences it as such has a pathology. We need to encourage people to view sex as an act of intimacy. Anything less is harmful to the individual and eventually to society as a whole. It is not a morality issue, it is a mental health issue.
2.) Mental health also includes the need to get sex. If someone does not get sex they go insane. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. So, if you honestly are trying to use mental health then sex is just a bodily function. Intimacy is also needed, but thats a higher level need (and lower level needs must be met first).
So yes, Sex with intimacy is better than just sex, But intamacy and no sex is not feasible, sex is required.
