WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

karrie

#1Oct 26th, 2011

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WINNIPEG - A Manitoba health authority wants the court to dismiss much of a lawsuit filed by relatives of a homeless man who died in an emergency room.
Lawyers for the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority say a double-amputee who died during a 34-hour wait in an emergency room no longer has rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms now that he is dead.
In court documents, the authority says Brian Sinclair's charter rights ended with his death so his family cannot sue on those grounds.
The lawyers are also asking the court to dismiss allegations that Sinclair's privacy rights were violated because they say those rights also don't apply after his death.
A Sinclair family lawyer says that argument is -- quote -- "absurd, intolerable and cruelly ironic."
Lawyers for both sides are expected to make their case before a judge Nov. 8.

Read it on Global News: --

lone wolf

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Oh great! Another circus.

Why did the homeless person die - and where were these relatives while he was on the street?

karrie

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

Oh great! Another circus.

Why did the homeless person die - and where were these relatives while he was on the street?

The homeless person died of a bladder infection while sitting in an ER waiting for help.

As for where the relatives were while he was on the street, lots of homeless people are paranoid personalities for a plethora of reasons, who can't/won't/don't want to live around their families. That doesn't make them bad families, doesn't mean they don't love them, care about them, etc. Just take a look at the families of the Pickton victims, read their stories of trying to reach their loved ones, find them, get them home. It's a poignant example of what the families of runaways, of drug users, or prostitutes, of the homeless in general, go through.

petros

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Was he diabetic?

Mrsa?

Hep?

lone wolf

#5 Top Rated Post

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

The homeless person died of a bladder infection while sitting in an ER waiting for help.

As for where the relatives were while he was on the street, lots of homeless people are paranoid personalities for a plethora of reasons, who can't/won't/don't want to live around their families. That doesn't make them bad families, doesn't mean they don't love them, care about them, etc. Just take a look at the families of the Pickton victims, read their stories of trying to reach their loved ones, find them, get them home. It's a poignant example of what the families of runaways, of drug users, or prostitutes, of the homeless in general, go through.

I remember. The wait was crazy and I believe the hospital was negligent. Homelessness? I've heard a whole encyclopedia of reasons why people are out on the streets while distributing sleeping bags, winter boots and coats among them. It seems just as wrong for the relatives to be attempting to cash in on tragedy. Maybe if any settlement were to be used for a homeless shelter or soup at the Kitchen I wouldn't smell greed mingled with the indifference.

IdRatherBeSkiing

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Knowing how ERs work, I find it difficult to believe that he would have been treated any different had he not been homeless. The only difference would be the added layer of buracracy since he would not have a health card. But he did not have chest pain or a broken arm so would have likely been priority 5 meaning he would never be seen. I have seen the delays at 3 or 4 to know that 5 is pointless.

He probably would have been better served by going to a walk in clinic although actually fixing our ERs would also help.

ETA: the defence that he is dead is ridiculous but you never know when you will get a crackpot judge.

karrie

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

I remember. The wait was crazy and I believe the hospital was negligent. Homelessness? I've heard a whole encyclopedia of reasons why people are out on the streets while distributing sleeping bags, winter boots and coats among them. It seems just as wrong for the relatives to be attempting to cash in on tragedy. Maybe if any settlement were to be used for a homeless shelter or soup at the Kitchen I wouldn't smell greed mingled with the indifference.

If they don't try to 'cash in' how do they make sure the WHA changes anything? They can't press criminal charges.

Retired_Can_Soldier

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

Oh great! Another circus.

Why did the homeless person die - and where were these relatives while he was on the street?

In all fairness to the family, most homeless people are either mentally ill or suffer from addiction issues.

karrie

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing

ETA: the defence that he is dead is ridiculous but you never know when you will get a crackpot judge.

That's the thing that's really killing me about this article... their claim that you don't have rights once you die. It would be a completely INSANE legal precedent to set.

Goober

#10

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

That's the thing that's really killing me about this article... their claim that you don't have rights once you die. It would be a completely INSANE legal precedent to set.

From what I recall some lawsuits do end with the persons death. I cannot be 100 % sure on that but it rings a bell in the old memory banks.

#juan

#11

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Retired_Can_Soldier

In all fairness to the family, most homeless people are either mentally ill or suffer from addiction issues.

Most homeless people got that way because of drug or booze problems. In a lot of cases the families have
worn themselves out trying to help people who probably can't be helped. The man who died because he
couldn't get treatment is owed something because everyone has a right to health care. To say that death
ends all responsibility is ridiculous. Why not just let them all die.......It would be a lot cheaper...

TenPenny

#12

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Because the incident happened before his death, he had Charter rights at that time, so the legal argument would last about 30 seconds in front of anyone with any legal knowledge.

petros

#13

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

per·son (pûr

n)
n.1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.

--

Read the hi-lighted words.

captain morgan

#14

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

The man who died because he
couldn't get treatment is owed something because everyone has a right to health care.

You are mistaken... There is no formal 'Right to Healthcare'

karrie

#15

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

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For more on what captain morgan has pointed out, see the above link.

However, keep in mind that the Medical Care Act says that in return for federal moneys given to the provinces, its persons should receive reasonable access to medical care, which this man obviously did not get.

captain morgan

#16

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

However, keep in mind that the Medical Care Act says that in return for federal moneys given to the provinces, its persons should receive reasonable access to medical care, which this man obviously did not get.

To play devil's advocate here:

Define 'reasonable access'?

petros

#17

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

--

For more on what captain morgan has pointed out, see the above link.

However, keep in mind that the Medical Care Act says that in return for federal moneys given to the provinces, its persons should receive reasonable access to medical care, which this man obviously did not get.

You've gotta sober (if he was abusing) somebody up before you can treat them with antibiotics.

karrie

#18

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan

To play devil's advocate here:

Define 'reasonable access'?

It's hard to define of course... but I think we can all agree that dying of infection after a 34 hour wait is perhaps outside of the realms of reasonable access. No matter what you're in for, the only reason that you would wait 34 hours in an Emergency Department waiting room, is that the staff had decided you were not worth their time.

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

You've gotta sober (if he was abusing) somebody up before you can treat them with antibiotics.

Why would you need to sober someone up before treating with antibiotics? -- And I'm quite certain that 34 hrs is an unnecessarily long time to sober someone up. It sounds like he was never seen, period.

petros

#19

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

karrie

#20

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

lol... which medication is that exactly? I've just finished a round of anti-b's, and specifically asked if alcohol was an issue. I was told by the pharmacist, very plainly, that alcohol only seriously interacts with ONE anti-biotic (not the one used for bladder infections, btw), and the only reason not to drink and take most anti-b's, is if you plan on drinking to the point of puking and not keeping down your meds. Simply having alcohol in your system is NOT a reason to not start treating someone for a bladder infection, it is NOT a reason to let them die of infection in an emergency room untreated. But nice try.

TenPenny

#21

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

I've never had an antibiotic that couldn't be taken with alcohol.

IdRatherBeSkiing

#22

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

--

Standard cover your ass disclaimer.

petros

#23

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

lol... which medication is that exactly? I've just finished a round of anti-b's, and specifically asked if alcohol was an issue. I was told by the pharmacist, very plainly, that alcohol only seriously interacts with ONE anti-biotic (not the one used for bladder infections, btw), and the only reason not to drink and take most anti-b's, is if you plan on drinking to the point of puking and not keeping down your meds. Simply having alcohol in your system is NOT a reason to not start treating someone for a bladder infection, it is NOT a reason to let them die of infection in an emergency room untreated. But nice try.

Do you look like a a street bum, will you follow through with your treatment, eat well, will avoid drinking Salon Selectives hairspray not compromising your over all health and immune system in the process of treatment? No? Then sure go ahead have a couple while out for dinner.

karrie

#24

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

Do you look like a a street bum, will you follow through with your treatment, eat well, will avoid drinking Salon Selectives hairspray not compromising your over all health and immune system in the process of treatment? No? Then sure go ahead have a couple while out for dinner.

And if I DID look like a street bum, it's okay to ignore me and let me die of infection? See, your way of thinking is exactly why I think this family has every right to push a law suit.

petros

#25

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Was he ignored? He just sat there like a lump in a chair and was never fed, had temp taken or tended to in any way shape or form?

WINNIPEG - Video footage disclosed recently by the province's chief medical examiner shows a Winnipeg man who died after waiting 34 hours in an emergency room may have been triaged by hospital staff.

If so, the footage would disprove earlier claims by both the province and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority that the man, 45-year-old Brian Sinclair, escaped the attention of staff at Health Sciences Centre because he was never entered into the triage system upon arriving there on Sept. 19.

The chief medical examiner has called an inquest into Sinclair's death, which has already prompted a new wristband tagging system at HSC.

Provincial Tory leader Hugh McFadyen and health critic Myrna Driedger are expected to comment on the matter today at 12:30 p.m.

karrie

#26

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

Was he ignored? He just sat there like a lump in a chair and was never fed, had temp taken or tended to in any way shape or form?

WINNIPEG - Video footage disclosed recently by the province's chief medical examiner shows a Winnipeg man who died after waiting 34 hours in an emergency room may have been triaged by hospital staff.

If so, the footage would disprove earlier claims by both the province and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority that the man, 45-year-old Brian Sinclair, escaped the attention of staff at Health Sciences Centre because he was never entered into the triage system upon arriving there on Sept. 19.

The chief medical examiner has called an inquest into Sinclair's death, which has already prompted a new wristband tagging system at HSC.

Provincial Tory leader Hugh McFadyen and health critic Myrna Driedger are expected to comment on the matter today at 12:30 p.m.

I haven't been able to turn up all the details of their inquest, but I do know that they have referred the file to out of province for input on whether or not criminal charges should be brought up over what the inquest found as far as circumstances surrounding his death.

petros

#27

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Although the 45-year-old man – who CTV Winnipeg identified as a double amputee named Brian Sinclair – was "a regular" at the emergency room

karrie

#28

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

Although the 45-year-old man – who CTV Winnipeg identified as a double amputee named Brian Sinclair – was "a regular" at the emergency room

Uh huh... funny how wheel chair bound homeless people can regularly be sick hey?

IdRatherBeSkiing

#29

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by petros

Was he ignored? He just sat there like a lump in a chair and was never fed, had temp taken or tended to in any way shape or form?

That would be the typical treatment in an ER waiting room for a non-life-threataning illness.

I think this guy's family has a grounds for a lawsuit --- not because he was homeless but just gross neglect.

If they had concerns about his treatment or needed to sober him up, he should have been in a bed where he could be monitored until proper treatment could be administered. At some point the risk of waiting until he was sober would have been greater than the risk of immediate treatment. The problem was that he was still in the waiting room unattended when that happened.

petros

#30

Re: WHA claims homeless man had no rights because he died

Oct 26th, 2011

Wolf! Wolf! Wolf!

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing

That would be the typical treatment in an ER waiting room for a non-life-threataning illness.

I think this guy's family has a grounds for a lawsuit --- not because he was homeless but just gross neglect.

Is his family the reason there hasn't been an inquest?

Quote:

An inquest was called into his death but it has been delayed by court action
and a criminal investigation.

We think clearly the law of public nuisance applies here and ... much more
accurately describes the wrongdoing that's alleged against the government,"
Zbogar said.

"The underlying allegations haven't changed."

The Sinclair family is patiently waiting for the truth to come out, he
added.

Aren't inquests about getting all the facts (truth)?

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