Is penal labour acceptable?

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

I personally think prisoners ought to work. In fact, international law would support at least the right of prisoners to work as we can read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:


Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Even granting prisoners the right to work would already be a step forward to alleviate the economic pressure of the prison system by allowing those who want to to work. If we should require prisoners to pay for their room, board, security and necessities, then many would likely be more than happy to work so as to benefit from more favourable living conditions in prison.

I know some might think of prison labour as being cruel or against human rights, but I just don't see how that's the case when we all have to work too.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Now, let's see if you dodge the question in here.

What do you plan to do with those that refuse to work?

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

Until the Union gets involved demanding rates of $30 an hour.

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

The same we ought to do with any citizen who is both physically and mentally fit to work and refuses to do so:

guarantee them the opportunity to work and then it's up to them to work. If they choose not to work, then we give them the freedom to do what they want with their hard-earned cash

...........................................


Or to be kinder towards them, I suppose we could guarantee room and board, but if they want any more conveniences they'll have to work for it. And they pay taxes like anyone else of course.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Big difference from the beginning of that message and the end.

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

I'm trying to be kind. I suppose we could give them the option between working and solitary confinement.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Really, trying to be kind.......... Yet just earlier today you were willing to have them starve to death if they didn't work. BIG change.

Quote: Originally Posted by Johnnny

Make them work and pay them $1.50 a day

Quote: Originally Posted by Highball

The State of California has a male and female felon program called the Forestry Conservation Camp program. Thiose inmates assigned are given a psychological evaluation by three licensed Psychologists with specialties in appropriate fields. If deemed fit for Camp duty the inmate is sent to a Forestry Trainuing Program Camp for a period of 22 weeks. The program involves physical conditioning, forest firefighting school and Camps orientation. Each Camp does not have a fence around it but has signs posted "Camp Limits." When the Training period is completed there is a formal graduation with family members invited to attend. Each ceared and trained inmate graduate is assigned to one of 38 Conservation Camps located throughout the state. The primary function of the Inmate crews is conservation, fire prevention, fire hazard reduction and some community service (Park Maintenance, etc.) and are available for call to respond to wild fires, floods, earthquakes and other emergencies. At times they are utilized to cleanup beaches after oil spills. The program has a 65 year year successful history and each inmate is paid $1.50 (US) a day plus $1.50 per hour when on emergency assignments. The monies are put on deposit in the Inmate Trust Fund Bank and are available to the inmate to use for purposes of purchasing gifts for family members, approved reading materials and also some personal items. The recidivism rate of the inmates in the Camp Program is about 28%. Others in the state system...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post:

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

I will lay odds that murderers do NOT get a chance to participate in the California program. This thread was propagated from another thread concerning murders. Machjo, you started this discussion in another thread by stating that murderers should pay for their incarceration.

Quote: Originally Posted by Johnnny

Make them work and pay them $1.50 a day

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

I think $5 would be fair.

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

I'd say pay them the same minimum wage all others are subject to, but charge them for room, board, security, maybe a mandatory contribution to a victims fund, etc. By the time all that is deducted from their pay check, it would probably come out to about 1.50 per hour anyway in terms of take home pay.

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

I'd say pay them the same minimum wage all others are subject to, but charge them for room, board, security, maybe a mandatory contribution to a victims fund, etc. By the time all that is deducted from their pay check, it would probably come out to about 1.50 per hour anyway in terms of take home pay.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

again, what about those that would refuse to work?

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

Don't pay 'em.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Really, trying to be kind.......... Yet just earlier today you were willing to have them starve to death if they didn't work. BIG change.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

I don't believe in letting a person starve to death, but I do believe in letting them think they are going to starve to death if they don't get off their ass.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

again, what about those that would refuse to work?

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

Don't pay 'em.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Here it is. It is being suggested that prisoners work and pay room and board from the pay earned. If someone refuses to work, they don't get paid, and they can't pay room and board. Having them "think" they are going to starve if they don't work but not actually following through with it might work for the first little bit, until it is figured out that the starvation threat is just that, a threat and empty to boot. So where is the incentive to work and pay room and board when in reality you can still get fed and bed without working?

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

We could be kind enough to provide them with an isolation cell and 3 square meals a day. But if they want more than that, they're free to work. I think after awhile in a cell, most would be willing to work. Again, I'm making exception for those who are incapable of working, or those ho have not even had an opportunity to work for pay, obviously. But once an opportunity to work is offered to an able-bodied and able-minded inmate, and he turns it down, then into the isolation cell he goes.



Yeah, we could be kind to them, ignore the isolation cell option above, and just let them live as they do now, but without any pay. They'd till get room, board, and all other necessities of life.



While I disagree with being untruthful to a convict, and so oppose JLM's idea above, I could see some inmates wanting to work as a means of feeling like a useful and valued member of the community. Some of us work not just for money, but also out of a certain feeling of accomplishment. If it's a choice between the absolute necessities of life on the one hand, and a little spare spending money and a feeling of accomplishment and a chance ot keep busy on the other, I'm sure many would choose the second option.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

all of this is a far cry from your original contentions. So, was it a matter of you not thinking things through to begin with, or you are easily swayed from your convictions?

Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

Offer them work at minimum wage with promotions available to those who earn it. Three squares a day are guaranteed. We don't run Gulags in this country yet.

Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

Offer them work at minimum wage with promotions available to those who earn it. Three squares a day are guaranteed. We don't run Gulags in this country yet.