Is penal labour acceptable?

Should prisoners be given a chance to work?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 21 77.8%
  • No.

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • Other answer.

    Votes: 4 14.8%

  • Total voters
    27

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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I personally think prisoners ought to work. In fact, international law would support at least the right of prisoners to work as we can read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:


Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Even granting prisoners the right to work would already be a step forward to alleviate the economic pressure of the prison system by allowing those who want to to work. If we should require prisoners to pay for their room, board, security and necessities, then many would likely be more than happy to work so as to benefit from more favourable living conditions in prison.

I know some might think of prison labour as being cruel or against human rights, but I just don't see how that's the case when we all have to work too.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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Now, let's see if you dodge the question in here.

What do you plan to do with those that refuse to work?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
I personally think prisoners ought to work. In fact, international law would support at least the right of prisoners to work as we can read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:


Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Even granting prisoners the right to work would already be a step forward to alleviate the economic pressure of the prison system by allowing those who want to to work. If we should require prisoners to pay for their room, board, security and necessities, then many would likely be more than happy to work so as to benefit from more favourable living conditions in prison.

I know some might think of prison labour as being cruel or against human rights, but I just don't see how that's the case when we all have to work too.

Until the Union gets involved demanding rates of $30 an hour. :smile:
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Now, let's see if you dodge the question in here.

What do you plan to do with those that refuse to work?

The same we ought to do with any citizen who is both physically and mentally fit to work and refuses to do so:

guarantee them the opportunity to work and then it's up to them to work. If they choose not to work, then we give them the freedom to do what they want with their hard-earned cash ;)

I'm not including those prisoners who are not in a physical or mental position to work, or those who do not have the necessary skills to work, or who haven't even gotten a job offer. Sure we ought to provide for those who can't work, and ensure all who can are at least offered a work position. Beyond that though it's up to them to accept the position.

Until the Union gets involved demanding rates of $30 an hour. :smile:

Then no company would want to hire them in which case they're out of work and out of cash. Of course we should always guarantee them an opportunity to work, but once that has been done, it's up to them to accept the position. If they choose to unionize and then turn down the offer, oh well, how will they pay the rent?

Or to be kinder towards them, I suppose we could guarantee room and board, but if they want any more conveniences they'll have to work for it. And they pay taxes like anyone else of course.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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The same we ought to do with any citizen who is both physically and mentally fit to work and refuses to do so:

guarantee them the opportunity to work and then it's up to them to work. If they choose not to work, then we give them the freedom to do what they want with their hard-earned cash ;)

...........................................


Or to be kinder towards them, I suppose we could guarantee room and board, but if they want any more conveniences they'll have to work for it. And they pay taxes like anyone else of course.


Big difference from the beginning of that message and the end.
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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I'm trying to be kind. I suppose we could give them the option between working and solitary confinement.


Really, trying to be kind.......... Yet just earlier today you were willing to have them starve to death if they didn't work. BIG change.
 

Highball

Council Member
Jan 28, 2010
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The State of California has a male and female felon program called the Forestry Conservation Camp program. Thiose inmates assigned are given a psychological evaluation by three licensed Psychologists with specialties in appropriate fields. If deemed fit for Camp duty the inmate is sent to a Forestry Trainuing Program Camp for a period of 22 weeks. The program involves physical conditioning, forest firefighting school and Camps orientation. Each Camp does not have a fence around it but has signs posted "Camp Limits." When the Training period is completed there is a formal graduation with family members invited to attend. Each ceared and trained inmate graduate is assigned to one of 38 Conservation Camps located throughout the state. The primary function of the Inmate crews is conservation, fire prevention, fire hazard reduction and some community service (Park Maintenance, etc.) and are available for call to respond to wild fires, floods, earthquakes and other emergencies. At times they are utilized to cleanup beaches after oil spills. The program has a 65 year year successful history and each inmate is paid $1.50 (US) a day plus $1.50 per hour when on emergency assignments. The monies are put on deposit in the Inmate Trust Fund Bank and are available to the inmate to use for purposes of purchasing gifts for family members, approved reading materials and also some personal items. The recidivism rate of the inmates in the Camp Program is about 28%. Others in the state system experience a rate of about 55% chance of returning to prison.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
The State of California has a male and female felon program called the Forestry Conservation Camp program. Thiose inmates assigned are given a psychological evaluation by three licensed Psychologists with specialties in appropriate fields. If deemed fit for Camp duty the inmate is sent to a Forestry Trainuing Program Camp for a period of 22 weeks. The program involves physical conditioning, forest firefighting school and Camps orientation. Each Camp does not have a fence around it but has signs posted "Camp Limits." When the Training period is completed there is a formal graduation with family members invited to attend. Each ceared and trained inmate graduate is assigned to one of 38 Conservation Camps located throughout the state. The primary function of the Inmate crews is conservation, fire prevention, fire hazard reduction and some community service (Park Maintenance, etc.) and are available for call to respond to wild fires, floods, earthquakes and other emergencies. At times they are utilized to cleanup beaches after oil spills. The program has a 65 year year successful history and each inmate is paid $1.50 (US) a day plus $1.50 per hour when on emergency assignments. The monies are put on deposit in the Inmate Trust Fund Bank and are available to the inmate to use for purposes of purchasing gifts for family members, approved reading materials and also some personal items. The recidivism rate of the inmates in the Camp Program is about 28%. Others in the state system experience a rate of about 55% chance of returning to prison.

Not bad. And I bet many of them feel happier than those who sit around all day bored out of their skulls. Hell, having them sit around all day could be considered cruel and unusual punishment. Those working have a sense of routine, and likely also feel a chance to contribute to the community, giving them a certain feeling of being useful, of being of benefit to society, which is always a good feeling to have. Even inmates ought to have a right to that feeling.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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I will lay odds that murderers do NOT get a chance to participate in the California program. This thread was propagated from another thread concerning murders. Machjo, you started this discussion in another thread by stating that murderers should pay for their incarceration.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Ottawa, ON
I will lay odds that murderers do NOT get a chance to participate in the California program. This thread was propagated from another thread concerning murders. Machjo, you started this discussion in another thread by stating that murderers should pay for their incarceration.

This thread is more general, though. I don't see why lesser criminals should not have this kind of opportunity. As for murderers, obviously they need to remain in more secured establishments, but why could they not work within those establishments, making license plates or whatever for example.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Ottawa, ON
I think $5 would be fair.

I'd say pay them the same minimum wage all others are subject to, but charge them for room, board, security, maybe a mandatory contribution to a victims fund, etc. By the time all that is deducted from their pay check, it would probably come out to about 1.50 per hour anyway in terms of take home pay.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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I'd say pay them the same minimum wage all others are subject to, but charge them for room, board, security, maybe a mandatory contribution to a victims fund, etc. By the time all that is deducted from their pay check, it would probably come out to about 1.50 per hour anyway in terms of take home pay.

OK..
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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I'd say pay them the same minimum wage all others are subject to, but charge them for room, board, security, maybe a mandatory contribution to a victims fund, etc. By the time all that is deducted from their pay check, it would probably come out to about 1.50 per hour anyway in terms of take home pay.


again, what about those that would refuse to work?