Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy
First of all, in the original Greek texts, Jesus said, I am a son of god and that we are all children of god.
He never claimed he was The Son of God.
Completely false Cliffy. This whole time you had us believing that you had mastered the study of all major religions and paths, and yet you don't seem to know the bible.
Perhaps no claim is more direct than Jesus’ response to Caiaphas’s pointblank interrogation:
“Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the
right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?”
he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death (Mark 14:61-64).
Notice that Jesus responded to the direct question with a direct answer: “I am.” Referring to himself as the “Son of Man,” Jesus then added that he would be coming back on the clouds of heaven. Caiaphas and his onlookers knew the implication. This was a reference to the vision the Old Testament prophet Daniel had of the end times: the Messiah --the Son of Man-- will come to earth to judge the world on the authority given to him by God the Father, and all the world’s people will worship him (Dan. 7:13). Of course, no one is to be worshiped but God himself. Yet here was Christ claiming that he would be the one to judge the world and receive worship from its people. He was claiming to be God, and everyone knew it.
While Matthew, Mark, and Luke all record the “I am” response to Caiaphas, John tells of another occasion where Jesus claims deity by answering, “I am.” This occurs during a tense exchange with some Jews. After several volleys back and forth about the true identity of Jesus, the conversation culminates with Jesus declaring to the Pharisees,
“Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds (John 8:56-59).
You and other skeptics might say, “‘Before Abraham was born, I am!’ is not even good English! It’s the wrong tense.” Exactly. Jesus isn’t worried about grammar because he’s quoting the very name God gave to Moses at the burning bush. Do you remember the movie The Ten Commandments? What did Moses (played by Charlton Heston) do when he encountered the burning bush? He asked God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” God then said to Moses,
“I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Ex. 3:13-14). I AM is the self-existent One.
He has no past or future because he is eternal. He’s not in time. Jesus was claiming to be that eternal, self-existent
One, and that’s why the Jews picked up stones to stone him.
For those who continue to say, “No, Jesus never claimed to be God,” I have a question: If Jesus didn’t claim to be God, then why was he killed?
Jesus’ crucifixion, which is probably the most well-attested fact from all of ancient history, is difficult to explain unless he claimed to be God.
The unbelieving Jews certainly knew he claimed to be God. On several occasions they picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy. Why was it obvious to first-century people that Jesus claimed to be God, but it’s not obvious to some present-day skeptics?
Look at the early christian writings and see for yourself; they did not believe in his deity until Constantine made it part of the bible.
The New Testament writers don’t just say that Jesus performed miracles and rose from the dead--they actually back up that testimony with dramatic action. First, virtually overnight they abandon many of their long held sacred beliefs and practices. Among the 1,500-year-old-plus institutions they give up are the following:
-The animal sacrifice system—they replace it forever by the one perfect sacrifice of Christ.
-The binding supremacy of the Law of Moses—they say it’s powerless because of the sinless life of Christ.
-Strict monotheism—they now worship Jesus, the God-man, despite the fact that 1) their most cherished belief has been, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Deut. 6:4); and 2) man-worship has always been considered blasphemy and punishable by death.
-The Sabbath—they no longer observe it even though they’ve always believed that breaking the Sabbath was punishable by death (Ex. 31:14).
-Belief in a conquering Messiah—Jesus is the opposite of a conquering Messiah. He’s a sacrificial lamb (at least on his first visit!).
Moreover, his disciples, who spent three years with him day and night, claimed that Jesus was sinless:
- Peter characterized Jesus as an “unblemished and spotless” lamb (1 Pet. 1:19, NASB) “who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth”
(1 Pet. 2:22, NASB).
- John said of Christ, “in Him there is no sin”. (1 John 3:5)
- Paul wrote that Jesus “knew no sin”. (2 Cor. 5:21)
- The writer of Hebrews made the same point by claiming that Jesus was “without sin”. (Heb. 4:15)
Now, you try spending three days with any human being—much less three years—and you definitely will find faults. The New Testament writers said Jesus had none.
But it wasn’t just his friends who affirmed his supreme character. Christ’s enemies couldn’t find fault with him either. The Pharisees, who were actively searching for dirt on Jesus, could find none (Mark 14:55).
They even admitted that Jesus taught “the way of God in accordance with the truth” (Mark 12:14). Even after all the efforts of the Pharisees to pin some charge on Jesus, Pilate found him innocent of any wrongdoing (Luke 23:22).
This, not to mention Cliffy the many, many, indirect claims that Jesus made about his deity like:
“I am the first and the last” (Rev. 1:17)—precisely the words used by God of himself in Isaiah 44:6, etc.
You want to believe in absolutes, fine.
That's why the avatar's black and white!
But your beliefs and arguments are meaningless to me and the great majority of the human population.
How can God breaking into history be meaningless? Its only seemingly meaningless to you because of your willful blindness.
Last edited by In Between Man; Jul 7th, 2009 at 11:48 PM..Reason: d