Is prayer of any value?

[china]

Is it of any value to pray to the Great Intelligences, God whatever , for help in our daily life? Don't think so, I will explain what I mean. What causes misery, conflict, suffering in our daily life? Traditions, selfish moral values, impositions of vested interest, attachment, acquisitiveness: these create conditions which prevent human happiness. And what is the use of praying to someone when you, through your own intelligence, can alter all this awful mess? Being unwilling to face suffering, we try to escape through prayer. You may escape momentarily, but the strength of your desire asserts itself again, plunging the mind into misery and confusion. So what matters is, not whether it is of value to pray, but to awaken that intelligence which alone will solve our human miseries. A mind and a heart that are hardened, that have limited themselves through their egotistic fears, pray. But if there were love, then you would free the mind from its own egotistic fears, and this alone can bring about intelligence and happy order.

 

[dancing-loon]

Is it of any value to pray to the Great Intelligences, God whatever , for help in our daily life? Don't think so, I will explain what I mean. What causes misery, conflict, suffering in our daily life? Traditions, selfish moral values, impositions of vested interest, attachment, acquisitiveness: these create conditions which prevent human happiness. And what is the use of praying to someone when you, through your own intelligence, can alter all this awful mess? Being unwilling to face suffering, we try to escape through prayer. You may escape momentarily, but the strength of your desire asserts itself again, plunging the mind into misery and confusion. So what matters is, not whether it is of value to pray, but to awaken that intelligence which alone will solve our human miseries. A mind and a heart that are hardened, that have limited themselves through their egotistic fears, pray. But if there were love, then you would free the mind from its own egotistic fears, and this alone can bring about intelligence and happy order.

Hi, China;
what you describe makes sense, I see it the same way, but... to pray for the safe return of an abducted little girl is something very different. In the face of total helplessness, to turn to God for help is the only recourse a worried soul has. Whether God actually will step in is another matter, because in his all-knowing wisdom he has to consider the involved persons' karma, their chances for soul advancement through pain and suffering. That's why so often our prayers seem to fall on deaf ears, while in reality God does hear us, but his decision is not to interfere with the freedom of choice that each and everyone of us was given. The soul of that little girl could very well be an old soul with a load of karma to work out, or it could also be a sacrifice on her part in order to help her parents learn and advance.

To pray and acknowledge God is a natural urge, an instinct when in total despair, and God does often enough help and comfort.

Edit: The little girl I mentioned is Madeline McCann from England. Perhaps you heard about her last year.

 

[goamn]

Hi, I do not know how to approach your question, rather I will give you perspective. In my perspective, you are a disbeliever and I am a believer. In being a muslim believer, I must pray 5 times a day. These prayers aren't as you suggest "solving our own mess" but rather they remind us all the time, as they are spread out during the day, not to approach sins such as drinking, cursing and boasting. Instead they encourage good behaviour such as giving charity to the poor (regardless of race/religion), loving your family and parents (second to the prayers, love for parents is the fundamental duty of islam) and also not to love this world (and the materialism it offers). The latter is important because love for this world creates evil intent such as greed for wealth, abusive attitude towards the family and also the desire it gives will take your mind away from the good deeds and, more importantly, your religion. Thank you for your time(if you got this far ) and I hope I have given you some perspective.

 

[china]

Edit: The little girl I mentioned is Madeline McCann from England. Perhaps you heard about her last year.

Thanks for
the post . I have not heard about the girl but I understand what you are saying dancing -loon ..I'm sure that if the girl was my own daughter ,I would not exclude a prayer as one of the sources /means of finding her.

 

[dancing-loon]

Hi, I do not know how to approach your question, rather I will give you perspective. In my perspective, you are a disbeliever and I am a believer. In being a Muslim believer, I must pray 5 times a day. These prayers aren't as you suggest "solving our own mess" but rather they remind us all the time, as they are spread out during the day, not to approach sins such as drinking, cursing and boasting. Instead they encourage good behavior such as giving charity to the poor (regardless of race/religion), loving your family and parents (second to the prayers, love for parents is the fundamental duty of Islam) and also not to love this world (and the materialism it offers). The latter is important because love for this world creates evil intent such as greed for wealth, abusive attitude towards the family and also the desire it gives will take your mind away from the good deeds and, more importantly, your religion. Thank you for your time(if you got this far ) and I hope I have given you some perspective.

Hi, goamn;
how lovely to have a Muslim answer and explain his view on prayers. I think your ritual is probably meant to really help you focus on staying on the straight and narrow road, as we say. BUT... to repeat a certain activity over and over it loses its original intent and effectiveness.

Let me demonstrate what I mean:
A few years ago I read the story of William Sampson, a Canadian, falsely arrested and tortured in Saudi Arabia.
What I distinctly remember from the book was the beating he received during interrogations. But then the prayer bells would ring, and everybody went away to pray, giving him a short moment of relief. Then the torturers returned and continued beating and knocking him about!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author)

Can you see my point I'm trying to make? Their praying was completely hollow and meaningless!

Please, do not feel offended, that is not at all my intention.

 

[china]

Hi, I do not know how to approach your question, rather I will give you perspective. In my perspective, you are a disbeliever and I am a believer.

I would say goamn that believer and non-believer are the same thing.You believe in something you don't really know and I just don't believe anything at all . same thing .

In being a muslim believer, I must pray 5 times a day. These prayers aren't as you suggest "solving our own mess" but rather they remind us all the time, as they are spread out during the day, not to approach sins such as drinking, cursing and boasting.

Why not be a man? Why carry label such as Muslim ,Catholic, Liberal or whatever ? Do you pray 5 x a day because of the label ,regulations or what .
Obviously if you are conscious of your prayer than it is not a prayer at all ,only a personal plea to fulfill your selfish desires desires of being "good" in your own eyes. No personnall accusations , Just wondering

Instead they encourage good behaviour such as giving charity to the poor (regardless of race/religion), loving your family and parents (second to the prayers, love for parents is the fundamental duty of islam) and also not to love this world (and the materialism it offers). The latter is important because love for this world creates evil intent such as greed for wealth, abusive attitude towards the family and also the desire it gives will take your mind away from the good deeds and, more importantly, your religion. Thank you for your time(if you got this far

) and I hope I have given you some perspective.

I can repeat what was said by a Christian Saint....."Love and do what you will".

 

[dancing-loon]

I can repeat what was said by a Christian Saint....."Love and do what you will".

I hope that "Saint" wasn't a rapist!!8O

 

[gerryh]

I hope that "Saint" wasn't a rapist!!8O

and why would you ask this?

 

[gerryh]

Is prayer of any value? For those that believe, a resounding yes. For those that don't believe, then no.

 

[lone wolf]

Prayer is the acceptable way of talking to yourself. Sometimes, you can give yourself fresh perspective just in stopping what you're doing and taking that moment to think.

 

[Scott Free]

I once prayed a lot; now I never pray and I've noticed no perceptible difference.

I think gerryh is right that prayer may have a placebo effect for those that believe in it. I know in studies where hospital patients didn't know they were being prayed for there was absolutely no difference in recovery rates vs people not being prayed for. The sad fact is that having a game console to play in your room will help your recovery far more than god will.

 

[lone wolf]

There's a lot to be said for the therapeutic value in talking to yourself too.... It does acknowledge that no matter how big you are, there's someone bigger.

 

[gerryh]

also..... sometimes the answer is no.

 

[Scott Free]

There's a lot to be said for the therapeutic value in talking to yourself too.... It does acknowledge that no matter how big you are, there's someone bigger.

It is damaging too though, in that, people often never learn from their mistakes because they really do expect some kind of miracle. It's damaging too in the sense that it may lead people into believing in destiny thus promoting unhealthy lifestyle choices. Also it tends to take credit away from where it is actually due.

If someone really did talk to themselves and did so to sort out their problems, then I agree, it would be of some use, but unfortunately most of the time I suspect people really are praying to their imaginations and are unlikely to learn anything from the experience.

 

[gerryh]

:roll:

 

[dancing-loon]

I once prayed a lot; now I never pray and I've noticed no perceptible difference.

I think gerryh is right that prayer may have a placebo effect for those that believe in it. I know in studies where hospital patients didn't know they were being prayed for there was absolutely no difference in recovery rates vs people not being prayed for. The sad fact is that having a game console to play in your room will help your recovery far more than god will.

God is still a mystery to me. But somehow I know he exists in some form or shape, and he has the ultimate power and wisdom.

How would you know that it wasn't God who helped you feel better through that game board? The game board is a dead piece and can not produce anything of itself... this "feel better" feeling came from somewhere else, but you think it is the game board.

 

[goamn]

Hi, goamn;
how lovely to have a Muslim answer and explain his view on prayers. I think your ritual is probably meant to really help you focus on staying on the straight and narrow road, as we say. BUT... to repeat a certain activity over and over it loses its original intent and effectiveness.

Let me demonstrate what I mean:
A few years ago I read the story of William Sampson, a Canadian, falsely arrested and tortured in Saudi Arabia.
What I distinctly remember from the book was the beating he received during interrogations. But then the prayer bells would ring, and everybody went away to pray, giving him a short moment of relief. Then the torturers returned and continued beating and knocking him about!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author)

Can you see my point I'm trying to make? Their praying was completely hollow and meaningless!

Please, do not feel offended, that is not at all my intention.

Hi,

I understand that there are people who do practise islam but do horrible things, but you have to look at the big picture and see the other side of it too. In the quran(the holy book), we are told that trials will come our way and test the strength of our belief (ie, you wont go to heaven just by praying!). In these trials, some people fail them and do the wrong thing and even worse they continue with knowledge of the sins they are doing. These kinds of people, even if they pray, will not go to heaven in the afterlife.

Their will always be people that practise islam but are indeed disbelievers because of their great sins and some even worse like the terrorism in Afghanistan.

On the other hand, you have some of the best Muslims in the world. They give to the poor, make sure their family and parents are safe and fear God (do things only for God and no one else).
One thing I must point out about Saudia Arabia is that their english translations of the Quran are somewhat defective and has political views. As with all english translations their are merely an interpretation and not a translation. I think the best interpretation is that by A. J. Arberry (http://arthurwendover.com/arthurs/koran/koran-arberry10.html).

Thanks you for reading, I hope you see the other side (the actual side) of Muslims.

 

[dancing-loon]

Hi,

I understand that there are people who do practise islam but do horrible things, but you have to look at the big picture and see the other side of it too. In the quran(the holy book), we are told that trials will come our way and test the strength of our belief (ie, you wont go to heaven just by praying!). In these trials, some people fail them and do the wrong thing and even worse they continue with knowledge of the sins they are doing. These kinds of people, even if they pray, will not go to heaven in the afterlife.

Their will always be people that practise islam but are indeed disbelievers because of their great sins and some even worse like the terrorism in Afghanistan.

On the other hand, you have some of the best Muslims in the world. They give to the poor, make sure their family and parents are safe and fear God (do things only for God and no one else).
One thing I must point out about Saudia Arabia is that their english translations of the Quran are somewhat defective and has political views. As with all english translations their are merely an interpretation and not a translation. I think the best interpretation is that by A. J. Arberry (http://arthurwendover.com/arthurs/koran/koran-arberry10.html).

Thanks you for reading, I hope you see the other side (the actual side) of Muslims.

Hi, goamn;
first of all, thank you for the link to the Quran. I intend to read in it here and there, especially under the "women" section.;-)

You are right... there are plenty of wonderful and kind Muslims. It is said it is the Muslim Fanatics that are so violent. That also holds true for the Christians. Just look at Mr. Bush, a devout Christian, and yet his trademarks are war and torture!

Any fanatic is a dangerous person, because he wears horse-blinds (blinkers) and can't see anything to the right or left, just his own narrow view.

I believe you are a good Muslim, with compassion and kindness.

I hope you will stay around and tell us about your Muslim life. We could have great conversations!

 

[china]

When we use the word "prayer", I think we use it with a very definite meaning. As it is generally understood, it means praying to someone outside of ourselves to give us strength, understanding, and so on. That is, we are looking for help from an external source. When you are suffering and you look to another to relieve you from that suffering, you are but creating in your mind, and therefore in your action, incompleteness, duality. So from my point of view, prayer, as it is commonly understood, has no value. You may forget your suffering in your prayer, but you have not understood the cause of suffering. You have merely lost yourself in prayer; you have suggested to yourself certain modes of living. So prayer in the ordinary sense of the word, that is, looking to another for relief from suffering, has to me no value. But if I may use the word with a different meaning, I think there is prayer which is not a looking to another for help; it is a continued alertness of mind, an awakened state in which you understand for yourself. In that state of prayer you know the cause of suffering, the cause of confusion, the cause of a problem. Most of us, when we have a problem, immediately seek a solution. When we find a solution we think that we have solved the problem, but we have not. We have only escaped from it. Prayer, in the conventional meaning of the word, is thus an escape. But real prayer, I feel, is action with awakened interest in life.

 

[MikeyDB]

Goamn

Welcome!

I don't personally believe in the existence of a creator being....which probably doesn't influence the creator one bit ...if he/she exists.... but I agree with some other folks observations regarding the potential benefits of kneeling or sitting quietly and gathering one's thoughts and contemplating the dynamic of life. If prayer answers a need for you then you should be free to practice, if prayer is a means of inculcating fear and hatred I'd just as soon see it atrophy into dust.

Can you provide me with some insights regarding the near absence of more tolerant voices from Islam speaking out against those who've highjacked your beliefs to practice terror and war?