April 16th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Ideally children will be fed. They will not be beaten. They will be given freedom to learn, to formulate ideas, to explore and to grow. Ideally, children will be happy and will be loved.
I think ideals are not only necessary, but are how we build our lives. They're how we build an environment for others to thrive in.
And while I could toss aside the notion that I want to live according to some presupposed set of ideals, the instant I did that, I've built a new ideal... that of being ideal free... and will try to live up to that ideal. They are inescapable in their necessity.
Ideally children will be fed. They will not be beaten. They will be given freedom to learn, to formulate ideas, to explore and to grow. Ideally, children will be happy and will be loved.
I think ideals are not only necessary, but are how we build our lives. They're how we build an environment for others to thrive in.
And while I could toss aside the notion that I want to live according to some presupposed set of ideals, the instant I did that, I've built a new ideal... that of being ideal free... and will try to live up to that ideal. They are inescapable in their necessity.
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445 
April 17th, 2008, 09:34 AM
China/Beaver
What has hating god anything to do with personal ideals?
If you equate religious belief with personal measurement, you must believe some religious teachings which you have learned through your lives as responsible for disappointment and disillusionment.
Hating god is symbolic only.
China/Beaver
What has hating god anything to do with personal ideals?
If you equate religious belief with personal measurement, you must believe some religious teachings which you have learned through your lives as responsible for disappointment and disillusionment.
Hating god is symbolic only.
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445
April 17th, 2008, 09:56 AM
Hey Mikey
Well - "ideally" I would want the following -
A heavy dose of common sense,always changing, always being added to and thinned out-
A good understanding of consequences of my actions or reactions -
An understanding of what feels good to me and what does not -
An understanding of what I believe to be right for me and wrong for me -
An understanding of what I believe to be right for me regarding others and wrong for me regarding others -
A determination to overcome failure because there would be many in a lifetime -
A good dose of self worth from accomplishments already collected along the way -
A dose of curiosity to research others' work and conclusions -
An ability to cast off the errors we all commit which need not be carried around on our backs -
And most important:
A sense of humor and self-forgiveness !
I think what I am getting at here Mikey is that life will present offerings of 'ideal' to us all of our lives - what we
choose to recognize and use or refuse would be entirely up to us based on our preparation for meeting life head on.
Keeping in mind that often we learn best from mistakes and errors made rather than simple success which came easily.
What may be ideal for us may not apply to others. We cannot impress ours upon them. They have their own paths.
Finally - some times it is best not to concern ourselves with what others need or want but what is best for us.
Hey Mikey
Well - "ideally" I would want the following -
A heavy dose of common sense,always changing, always being added to and thinned out-
A good understanding of consequences of my actions or reactions -
An understanding of what feels good to me and what does not -
An understanding of what I believe to be right for me and wrong for me -
An understanding of what I believe to be right for me regarding others and wrong for me regarding others -
A determination to overcome failure because there would be many in a lifetime -
A good dose of self worth from accomplishments already collected along the way -
A dose of curiosity to research others' work and conclusions -
An ability to cast off the errors we all commit which need not be carried around on our backs -
And most important:
A sense of humor and self-forgiveness !
I think what I am getting at here Mikey is that life will present offerings of 'ideal' to us all of our lives - what we
choose to recognize and use or refuse would be entirely up to us based on our preparation for meeting life head on.
Keeping in mind that often we learn best from mistakes and errors made rather than simple success which came easily.
What may be ideal for us may not apply to others. We cannot impress ours upon them. They have their own paths.
Finally - some times it is best not to concern ourselves with what others need or want but what is best for us.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,604
April 17th, 2008, 10:04 AM
Curio
Nice mix....
Not to throw stones, but there's a paucity of concern over impacts your ideals and notions might have on the environment and the "larger" picture...
I think if our ideals can synthesize both the personal and the "macro" the impact of our ideals would accomodate even more ideals as envisioned by more people....
As example, I don't care about the shape of my automobile provided it is streamlined to reduce air resistance, functional for my needs...(two seats or however many a person may need) and imposes as little negative impact on the environment as possible....
I don't care that some fashion guru somewhere decides that chiffon or lycra is the "rage" this year, my concern is that my clothing is both functional and low-impact (doesn't demand refining petroleum to produce) and can be reliably re-cycled when they've outlived their usefulness to me as "clothing".
There's other stuff, but do you see where I'm going...?
Curio
Nice mix....
Not to throw stones, but there's a paucity of concern over impacts your ideals and notions might have on the environment and the "larger" picture...
I think if our ideals can synthesize both the personal and the "macro" the impact of our ideals would accomodate even more ideals as envisioned by more people....
As example, I don't care about the shape of my automobile provided it is streamlined to reduce air resistance, functional for my needs...(two seats or however many a person may need) and imposes as little negative impact on the environment as possible....
I don't care that some fashion guru somewhere decides that chiffon or lycra is the "rage" this year, my concern is that my clothing is both functional and low-impact (doesn't demand refining petroleum to produce) and can be reliably re-cycled when they've outlived their usefulness to me as "clothing".
There's other stuff, but do you see where I'm going...?
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445
April 17th, 2008, 01:58 PM
Mikey
That is where common sense comes into play (whether I have enough or too little is moot) and how it impacts others would be part of a learning process for me.
You mentioned automobiles. One per family unit should be all that is necessary for what we now use in the way of private transportation. Other smalller units like golf carts protected from the weather might be alternative vehicular transportation as well as cycling units. There is always an alternative if people are creative and unwilling to submit to the ever pressing need for more.
Where we fail as a society is to believe that the more 'things' we acquire makes us more important in our world. Acquisition of 'things' as you well know means nothing in our life impact on our community and on a larger scale - our nation and our world.
What would be a more worthy examination is why do we feel the need for 'more' things. When did competition and outdoing each other - even our loved ones and friends - become our 'god'?
The ideal could possibly be to do with as little as necessary to remain healthy and comfortable. Our society might even need to slow down a bit when it comes to movement of people from A to B in their daily lives - which might not be a bad thing in itself. Walking may even become our 'exercise of choice' rather than expensive gyms.
Mikey
That is where common sense comes into play (whether I have enough or too little is moot) and how it impacts others would be part of a learning process for me.
You mentioned automobiles. One per family unit should be all that is necessary for what we now use in the way of private transportation. Other smalller units like golf carts protected from the weather might be alternative vehicular transportation as well as cycling units. There is always an alternative if people are creative and unwilling to submit to the ever pressing need for more.
Where we fail as a society is to believe that the more 'things' we acquire makes us more important in our world. Acquisition of 'things' as you well know means nothing in our life impact on our community and on a larger scale - our nation and our world.
What would be a more worthy examination is why do we feel the need for 'more' things. When did competition and outdoing each other - even our loved ones and friends - become our 'god'?
The ideal could possibly be to do with as little as necessary to remain healthy and comfortable. Our society might even need to slow down a bit when it comes to movement of people from A to B in their daily lives - which might not be a bad thing in itself. Walking may even become our 'exercise of choice' rather than expensive gyms.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,867
Location: Winchester Virginia
Location: Winchester Virginia
April 17th, 2008, 02:08 PM
Nice to see your posts again Curiosity !!
Regarding "Directives from the Central Bureau of Big Brother", I wonder how much more our lives will be constricted ?
1.Thou shalt use one square of Scott Tissue.
2.Only one auto for a family of 4.
3.No more Incandescent light bulbs despite the fact that fluorescent creation and flourescent tube disposal offers new environmental damage.
4. No more McMansion construction.
5. No hanging of clothing outside on clotheslines ---- eyesore pollution ?
6. No more plastic bags ----back to paper bags ?
Doesn't it seem that central management is a much more poorer, negative choice, one fraught with mistakes than using technology to change all the rules ?
Are ideals necessary ?
Yes, but often the ideal forced on others lacks humility and doubt...
Often the ideal becomes the new religion, fanatically forced on others.
Nice to see your posts again Curiosity !!
Regarding "Directives from the Central Bureau of Big Brother", I wonder how much more our lives will be constricted ?
1.Thou shalt use one square of Scott Tissue.
2.Only one auto for a family of 4.
3.No more Incandescent light bulbs despite the fact that fluorescent creation and flourescent tube disposal offers new environmental damage.
4. No more McMansion construction.
5. No hanging of clothing outside on clotheslines ---- eyesore pollution ?
6. No more plastic bags ----back to paper bags ?
Doesn't it seem that central management is a much more poorer, negative choice, one fraught with mistakes than using technology to change all the rules ?
Are ideals necessary ?
Yes, but often the ideal forced on others lacks humility and doubt...
Often the ideal becomes the new religion, fanatically forced on others.
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445
April 17th, 2008, 02:32 PM
Hey Jim
Thanks for the reminder of the necessities (Scott tissue haha)!!!
Yup - even what begins as ideal in overload mode can become a dictatorship.
We humans seem to want a bot society - where none of us think outside the cubicle.
Perhaps that is why there are emancipated women (joke).
Hi back at you! I hope you are still behaving like a newlywed!
And in fond memory: A few elipses for ya... .... ... ... ... and a few yada yada yadas....
Hey Jim
Thanks for the reminder of the necessities (Scott tissue haha)!!!
Yup - even what begins as ideal in overload mode can become a dictatorship.
We humans seem to want a bot society - where none of us think outside the cubicle.
Perhaps that is why there are emancipated women (joke).
Hi back at you! I hope you are still behaving like a newlywed!
And in fond memory: A few elipses for ya... .... ... ... ... and a few yada yada yadas....
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,604
April 17th, 2008, 02:32 PM
Jimmoyer
Hey dude!
I get so frustrated some times...finding the balance. I accept that we need strategies for the "greater good" and that as human beings we have a tendency to frequently fall far short of any ideals we may erect for ourselves.... Simple things like treating each other with respect and fairness....in a climate that is often belicose and hostile...where unless your wits and your attention is focused on the minuatae around you...someone is going to both inadvertantly and sometimes on purpose...put the screws to you....
It's a tough job being idealistic in a world that frowns on creative thinking and rejects all but the currency of indivdual expression and "prosperity"...regardless of the cost to the collective...
Good thing you and I have a handle on all this...
Jimmoyer
Hey dude!
I get so frustrated some times...finding the balance. I accept that we need strategies for the "greater good" and that as human beings we have a tendency to frequently fall far short of any ideals we may erect for ourselves.... Simple things like treating each other with respect and fairness....in a climate that is often belicose and hostile...where unless your wits and your attention is focused on the minuatae around you...someone is going to both inadvertantly and sometimes on purpose...put the screws to you....
It's a tough job being idealistic in a world that frowns on creative thinking and rejects all but the currency of indivdual expression and "prosperity"...regardless of the cost to the collective...
Good thing you and I have a handle on all this...
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,867
Location: Winchester Virginia
Location: Winchester Virginia
April 17th, 2008, 02:41 PM
I'm not so sure the world really frowns on creative thinking.
I do believe the world rewards you for creative thinking.
But some of our creative thinking doesn't meet the test. We're really like comedians trying like hell and the audience ain't laughing. They ain't buying.
And we're dying up there on the stage.
When you got the audience buying, well then, perhaps you have some proof of a decent enough idea, n'est pas ?
I'm not so sure the world really frowns on creative thinking.
I do believe the world rewards you for creative thinking.
But some of our creative thinking doesn't meet the test. We're really like comedians trying like hell and the audience ain't laughing. They ain't buying.
And we're dying up there on the stage.
When you got the audience buying, well then, perhaps you have some proof of a decent enough idea, n'est pas ?
Genius
Posts: 972
Location: BC
Location: BC
April 17th, 2008, 03:36 PM
I was raised in a fiercely religious household (probably fanatical) and what I hate are the things (concepts) placed in me at such a young age. I try and escape them with reason and logic but always they plague me - a horrible horrible creature called god. It is a fantastic beast of twisted childhood memories, false dreams and warped logic; lies, deceit and fallacies - I truly hate god.
I believe very much in the freewill of people and, as Sartre and others correctly argue, a god and human free will are incompatible. And this is the rub of it all. A god can live in your head; placed there at a tender age; that it clouds all reason and judgment; it robs us of our very humanity - god, the destroyer of man the destroyer of free will. And when I look at the teachings, the rants and raves of religions founders, all I see are the attempts to do that very thing, to limit our capacity by their narrow vision of us!
Yes, I hate god. So much so that should it come to pass that I am standing before him, I will spit and piss on him and long for oblivion.
I do not care for kings, tyrants, nations, gods or government. I am an anarchist and I would trade an eternity of servitude for a moment of freedom.
"It is not without good reason that governments hold the belief in God to be an essential condition of their power" - Bakunin
Quoting karrie
Your quite right it isn't actually god I hate; since, as you point out, there really isn't one.
that's where skeptics/atheists confuse me. How do you hate something you don't think exists? Odd bit of thinking frankly.
I was raised in a fiercely religious household (probably fanatical) and what I hate are the things (concepts) placed in me at such a young age. I try and escape them with reason and logic but always they plague me - a horrible horrible creature called god. It is a fantastic beast of twisted childhood memories, false dreams and warped logic; lies, deceit and fallacies - I truly hate god.
I believe very much in the freewill of people and, as Sartre and others correctly argue, a god and human free will are incompatible. And this is the rub of it all. A god can live in your head; placed there at a tender age; that it clouds all reason and judgment; it robs us of our very humanity - god, the destroyer of man the destroyer of free will. And when I look at the teachings, the rants and raves of religions founders, all I see are the attempts to do that very thing, to limit our capacity by their narrow vision of us!
Yes, I hate god. So much so that should it come to pass that I am standing before him, I will spit and piss on him and long for oblivion.
I do not care for kings, tyrants, nations, gods or government. I am an anarchist and I would trade an eternity of servitude for a moment of freedom.
"It is not without good reason that governments hold the belief in God to be an essential condition of their power" - Bakunin
