Super Genius
Posts: 1,384 
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
November 7th, 2007, 10:15 PM
China is a communist state. Religion is antethical to communism. Besides they are a sovereign state able to make their own laws. Don't like it. Don't compete. Individual atheltes should be allowed to bring their bibles with them. Every nation has inalienable rights to enact laws it feels are necessary to protect it's society. Americans crossing in to Canada must leave their guns behind. Any Canadian who crosses into the US with a few joints is asking for it.
China is a communist state. Religion is antethical to communism. Besides they are a sovereign state able to make their own laws. Don't like it. Don't compete. Individual atheltes should be allowed to bring their bibles with them. Every nation has inalienable rights to enact laws it feels are necessary to protect it's society. Americans crossing in to Canada must leave their guns behind. Any Canadian who crosses into the US with a few joints is asking for it.
House Member
Posts: 3,302 
November 8th, 2007, 08:54 AM
If this is in a philosophical not religious aspect of debate:
Consider this: Other than tradition and the habit of people killing over being forced one way or the other in regards to religion.
Is there anything that makes it a unique human right? When it is boiled down to it, it is a personal belief system, a list of things you believe to be true.
In that sense (ignoring the concept of higher powers, it being right, god etc) is a religion any more deserving of protection than any other belief system?
The communist manifesto or any other political book (a belief system), The Anarchists Cookbook, Mein Kampf, Al-Qaeda recruiting videos, Eco-Terrorist propaganda, The latest box set of Star Trek TNG DVD's?
Just a thought from a philosophy side of things, is the owning of materials deemed (Rightly or wrongly) to promote anti-social or violent/dangerous acts and beliefs a fundemental human right?
If this is in a philosophical not religious aspect of debate:
Consider this: Other than tradition and the habit of people killing over being forced one way or the other in regards to religion.
Is there anything that makes it a unique human right? When it is boiled down to it, it is a personal belief system, a list of things you believe to be true.
In that sense (ignoring the concept of higher powers, it being right, god etc) is a religion any more deserving of protection than any other belief system?
The communist manifesto or any other political book (a belief system), The Anarchists Cookbook, Mein Kampf, Al-Qaeda recruiting videos, Eco-Terrorist propaganda, The latest box set of Star Trek TNG DVD's?
Just a thought from a philosophy side of things, is the owning of materials deemed (Rightly or wrongly) to promote anti-social or violent/dangerous acts and beliefs a fundemental human right?
Senate Member
Posts: 6,500
November 8th, 2007, 09:08 AM
Zzaarchov
Excellent point and I agree with the direction you are taking..... more wars have been fought for the preservation of a religious belief than I want to think of...
What my concern was: The selective denial of an obviously western cultural need or habit.....many athletes, even not so religious, say a prayer before an event, or have an icon of some meaning to them...
The Qu'ran was not denied, nor any other religious symbolism.... except the Bible.
That was my point.
The Olympics will still go on with or without a Bible, they haven't found a way into peoples' hearts and heads (yet) if they are true believers.... so it is moot.
I hope some poor soul doesn't cross himself before bending down at the starting blocks....
Zzaarchov
Excellent point and I agree with the direction you are taking..... more wars have been fought for the preservation of a religious belief than I want to think of...
What my concern was: The selective denial of an obviously western cultural need or habit.....many athletes, even not so religious, say a prayer before an event, or have an icon of some meaning to them...
The Qu'ran was not denied, nor any other religious symbolism.... except the Bible.
That was my point.
The Olympics will still go on with or without a Bible, they haven't found a way into peoples' hearts and heads (yet) if they are true believers.... so it is moot.
I hope some poor soul doesn't cross himself before bending down at the starting blocks....
November 8th, 2007, 09:44 AM
Quoting Zzarchov
That's a compelling question. I don't know what my answer would be. It warrants thought.
Just a thought from a philosophy side of things, is the owning of materials deemed (Rightly or wrongly) to promote anti-social or violent/dangerous acts and beliefs a fundemental human right?
Senate Member
Posts: 6,500
November 8th, 2007, 09:52 AM
Zzarchov/Karrie
Would that not be a decision to be made by the host city - and what their rulings would be? I am not writing Beijing has done anything wrong - just something which could give rise to feelings which could best be left at home - it is a global event in peace after all.
Zzarchov/Karrie
Would that not be a decision to be made by the host city - and what their rulings would be? I am not writing Beijing has done anything wrong - just something which could give rise to feelings which could best be left at home - it is a global event in peace after all.
November 8th, 2007, 09:56 AM
I was thinking much along the same lines Curio, in that it is in a way, like being invited into someone's home.
But, on the other side of the coin, it's not like being invited into someone's home at all.... it's a case of knowing that there will be a party, and the city bidding to be the venue. Less like being invited into someone's home, and more like renting a hall for your party. They knew who the party was for. They wanted to host it nonetheless.
Is it fair to place restrictions AFTER the fact?
I was thinking much along the same lines Curio, in that it is in a way, like being invited into someone's home.
But, on the other side of the coin, it's not like being invited into someone's home at all.... it's a case of knowing that there will be a party, and the city bidding to be the venue. Less like being invited into someone's home, and more like renting a hall for your party. They knew who the party was for. They wanted to host it nonetheless.
Is it fair to place restrictions AFTER the fact?
Council Member
Posts: 1,634
November 9th, 2007, 04:10 PM
It is illegal to distribute religious material in China outside of very strict controls.
It is legal to possess religious material for personal use.
Another Official Chinese Government Press Release:
China treats Christian bibles the same as any other religious text. Yes you can possess one bible for personal use, but no you cannot bring in more than one per person. That would be possssion for the purposes of distributing. You need a special permit for that.
Also this official Chinese view of religion might prove enlightening:
http://wcm.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cgny/eng/xw/t31407.htm
It is illegal to distribute religious material in China outside of very strict controls.
It is legal to possess religious material for personal use.
Another Official Chinese Government Press Release:
Quote:
There is no official prohibited items list as far as I can tell. But I went to the official 2008 Olympic website and found a link to this:
China dismisses Olympics Bible ban as rumors
China Thursday rebuked reports that the it would ban foreign athletes from bringing Bibles to the Olympic village during the Beijing Olympic Games next year, dismissing them as "sheer rumors".
"We have taken note of the reports and checked with the relevant authorities. The facts prove that the reports are sheer rumors," Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told a routine press conference.
The Catholic News Agency published a report in November citing the Italian sports daily La Gazzetta dello Sport and Spanish daily La Razon as saying that Bibles were on a list of "prohibited objects" in the Olympic village.
"The Chinese government has never ever issued such a rule, nor any such statement," Liu said. "China's religious affairs authorities and the Beijing Olympic organizing committee have not - and could not - issue a rule banning the Bible in the Olympic village."
China has always respected and protected the religious freedom of foreigners living in China in line with laws and regulations, he said.
According to the Provisions on the Administration of Religious Activities of Aliens Within the Territory of the People's Republic of China, foreigners are allowed to bring in religious publications, audio-video materials or other objects for personal use, Liu said.
"We are suspicious of the ultimate motivations of those who spread such rumors. They should be responsible, and not do things that are not beneficial for themselves and undermine mutual understanding between China and the world," he added.
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/9...7/6299302.html
China Thursday rebuked reports that the it would ban foreign athletes from bringing Bibles to the Olympic village during the Beijing Olympic Games next year, dismissing them as "sheer rumors".
"We have taken note of the reports and checked with the relevant authorities. The facts prove that the reports are sheer rumors," Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told a routine press conference.
The Catholic News Agency published a report in November citing the Italian sports daily La Gazzetta dello Sport and Spanish daily La Razon as saying that Bibles were on a list of "prohibited objects" in the Olympic village.
"The Chinese government has never ever issued such a rule, nor any such statement," Liu said. "China's religious affairs authorities and the Beijing Olympic organizing committee have not - and could not - issue a rule banning the Bible in the Olympic village."
China has always respected and protected the religious freedom of foreigners living in China in line with laws and regulations, he said.
According to the Provisions on the Administration of Religious Activities of Aliens Within the Territory of the People's Republic of China, foreigners are allowed to bring in religious publications, audio-video materials or other objects for personal use, Liu said.
"We are suspicious of the ultimate motivations of those who spread such rumors. They should be responsible, and not do things that are not beneficial for themselves and undermine mutual understanding between China and the world," he added.
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/9...7/6299302.html
Quote:
The bible ban story is a hoax, or at least a distortion of the truth. There is nothing here specifically banning the bible. It falls under "8. Other articles the import of which is prohibited by state regulations". In other words, obey China's laws while a guest in China. Customs Regulations
Entry: Tourists must fill out a baggage declaration form (in two copies) and hand it in to customs, retaining the carbon to show upon exit.
Personal belongings will be admitted duty free, including food, two bottles of liquor and two cartons of cigarettes. Wristwatches, radios, tape recorders, cameras, movie cameras, and similar items may be brought in for personal use but cannot be sold or transferred to others and must be brought out of China.
Gifts for relatives or friends in China, or articles carried on behalf of other, must also be declared.
Visitors can bring in an unlimited amount of foreign currency and Chinese renminbi traveler's checks, and the unspent portion can be taken out.
Bringing in the following articles is prohibited:
1. Arms, ammunition, and explosives of all kinds
2. Radio transmitters-receivers and principal parts
3. Renminbi (Chinese currency) in cash
4. Manuscripts, printed matter, films, photographs, gramophone records, cinematographic films, loaded recording tapes and videotapes, etc. which are detrimental to China's politics, economy, culture, and ethics
5. Poisonous drugs, habit-forming drugs, opium, morphine, heroin, etc.
6. Animals, plants and products thereof infected with or carrying germs and insect pests
7. Unsanitary foodstuffs and germ-carrying food-stuffs from infected areas
8. Other articles the import of which is prohibited by state regulations
Exit: On leaving China, tourists must again submit the baggage declaration form for customs inspection (the second copy). Travelers by ship are exempted.
Items purchased in China with RMB converted from foreign currencies may be taken out or mailed out of the country after receipts are presented for customs inspection. In cities where a Customs Office does not exit, this can be arranged through the local Friendship Store.
Taking out the following articles is prohibited:
1. Arms, ammunition, and explosives of all kinds
2. Radio transmitters-receivers and principal parts
3. Renminbi (Chinese currency) in cash and negotiable securities in RMB
4. Unratified foreign currency, foreign notes or drafts
5. Manuscripts, printed matter, films, photographs, gramophone records, cinematographic films, loaded recording tapes and videotapes, etc. which are detrimental to China's national security
6. Rare and precious copies of books about Chinese revolution, history, culture and art that are not for sale
7. Valuable animals, plants, and seeds
8. Precious metals, pearls, and jewels (things declared to the customs are exempted)
9. Other articles the export of which is prohibited by state regulations
(Credit: Beijing Tourism Administration)
http://en.beijing2008.cn/spectators/...14076536.shtml
Entry: Tourists must fill out a baggage declaration form (in two copies) and hand it in to customs, retaining the carbon to show upon exit.
Personal belongings will be admitted duty free, including food, two bottles of liquor and two cartons of cigarettes. Wristwatches, radios, tape recorders, cameras, movie cameras, and similar items may be brought in for personal use but cannot be sold or transferred to others and must be brought out of China.
Gifts for relatives or friends in China, or articles carried on behalf of other, must also be declared.
Visitors can bring in an unlimited amount of foreign currency and Chinese renminbi traveler's checks, and the unspent portion can be taken out.
Bringing in the following articles is prohibited:
1. Arms, ammunition, and explosives of all kinds
2. Radio transmitters-receivers and principal parts
3. Renminbi (Chinese currency) in cash
4. Manuscripts, printed matter, films, photographs, gramophone records, cinematographic films, loaded recording tapes and videotapes, etc. which are detrimental to China's politics, economy, culture, and ethics
5. Poisonous drugs, habit-forming drugs, opium, morphine, heroin, etc.
6. Animals, plants and products thereof infected with or carrying germs and insect pests
7. Unsanitary foodstuffs and germ-carrying food-stuffs from infected areas
8. Other articles the import of which is prohibited by state regulations
Exit: On leaving China, tourists must again submit the baggage declaration form for customs inspection (the second copy). Travelers by ship are exempted.
Items purchased in China with RMB converted from foreign currencies may be taken out or mailed out of the country after receipts are presented for customs inspection. In cities where a Customs Office does not exit, this can be arranged through the local Friendship Store.
Taking out the following articles is prohibited:
1. Arms, ammunition, and explosives of all kinds
2. Radio transmitters-receivers and principal parts
3. Renminbi (Chinese currency) in cash and negotiable securities in RMB
4. Unratified foreign currency, foreign notes or drafts
5. Manuscripts, printed matter, films, photographs, gramophone records, cinematographic films, loaded recording tapes and videotapes, etc. which are detrimental to China's national security
6. Rare and precious copies of books about Chinese revolution, history, culture and art that are not for sale
7. Valuable animals, plants, and seeds
8. Precious metals, pearls, and jewels (things declared to the customs are exempted)
9. Other articles the export of which is prohibited by state regulations
(Credit: Beijing Tourism Administration)
http://en.beijing2008.cn/spectators/...14076536.shtml
China treats Christian bibles the same as any other religious text. Yes you can possess one bible for personal use, but no you cannot bring in more than one per person. That would be possssion for the purposes of distributing. You need a special permit for that.
Also this official Chinese view of religion might prove enlightening:
http://wcm.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cgny/eng/xw/t31407.htm
Council Member
Posts: 1,918
Location: china
Location: china
May 17th, 2008, 09:05 AM
Yes ,you can bring your Bible to China .No you can not bring whole stuck of Bibles for a purpous of giving them away.
Any one in China can buy a Bible if they want to.My Chinese wife bought a Bible for her self and number of christian children books (in English)for our daughter.
Just want you to know that China Is the world's largest publisher of the Bible ( or close to it)......
World's biggest Bible factory opens in a 'Godless' China - The ...31 Dec 2007 ... Yet China is about to become home to the world's biggest Bible ... US$4 million Timson publishing press shipped to China from Europe. ...
www.chinapost.com.tw/china/2007/12/31/137078/World's-biggest.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
China is changing but not the mentality of western people.
Anyhow ,yes, you can have your own Bible in China
Yes ,you can bring your Bible to China .No you can not bring whole stuck of Bibles for a purpous of giving them away.
Any one in China can buy a Bible if they want to.My Chinese wife bought a Bible for her self and number of christian children books (in English)for our daughter.
Just want you to know that China Is the world's largest publisher of the Bible ( or close to it)......
World's biggest Bible factory opens in a 'Godless' China - The ...31 Dec 2007 ... Yet China is about to become home to the world's biggest Bible ... US$4 million Timson publishing press shipped to China from Europe. ...
www.chinapost.com.tw/china/2007/12/31/137078/World's-biggest.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
China is changing but not the mentality of western people.
Anyhow ,yes, you can have your own Bible in China
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,164
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
May 17th, 2008, 09:59 AM
Oh to be Satan for just one day. The crosses would line the avenues of the capitals the forests would groan under the demand for timbers and all of nature would rejoice to witness the punishment metted out in righteous indignation to the perverters of earths spirit, every trace of thier twisted work would be washed from the soil and the lying words would never be heard again by any child.
The bible is the vilest piece of written work ever committed to paper.
Oh to be Satan for just one day. The crosses would line the avenues of the capitals the forests would groan under the demand for timbers and all of nature would rejoice to witness the punishment metted out in righteous indignation to the perverters of earths spirit, every trace of thier twisted work would be washed from the soil and the lying words would never be heard again by any child.
The bible is the vilest piece of written work ever committed to paper.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
May 17th, 2008, 10:38 AM
Where is the line between "philosophical" and "actual"?
Is it "philosophically" OK...to practice sweatshop economics.... Is it philosophically OK to feed both the treasuries and the military arsenels of competing nations.....
When is a line drawn in the sand of "philosophical difference" more important than the practices of nations who "philosophically" subscibing to principles like "the rule of law" can then demonstrate their disdain for these very principles?
Where is the line between "philosophical" and "actual"?
Is it "philosophically" OK...to practice sweatshop economics.... Is it philosophically OK to feed both the treasuries and the military arsenels of competing nations.....
When is a line drawn in the sand of "philosophical difference" more important than the practices of nations who "philosophically" subscibing to principles like "the rule of law" can then demonstrate their disdain for these very principles?
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,164
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
May 17th, 2008, 10:57 AM
Quoting MikeyDB
There isn't any, actual practice follows philosopical bent, those who preach for the pretender never soil themselves with reality, the shining city is always beyond the next mountain of grief.
Where is the line between "philosophical" and "actual"?
Is it "philosophically" OK...to practice sweatshop economics.... Is it philosophically OK to feed both the treasuries and the military arsenels of competing nations.....
When is a line drawn in the sand of "philosophical difference" more important than the practices of nations who "philosophically" subscibing to principles like "the rule of law" can then demonstrate their disdain for these very principles?
Is it "philosophically" OK...to practice sweatshop economics.... Is it philosophically OK to feed both the treasuries and the military arsenels of competing nations.....
When is a line drawn in the sand of "philosophical difference" more important than the practices of nations who "philosophically" subscibing to principles like "the rule of law" can then demonstrate their disdain for these very principles?
Member
Posts: 144
Location: Calgary
Location: Calgary
May 17th, 2008, 12:45 PM
Unlike in the western world where Bible's cost...well, you can usually pick up a free one from a church or Bible distribution agency...at one point they handed out New Testaments in schools (yes, I know you can buy an expensive one if you want).
But now I understand the persecution of Tibetan Buddhism, lock up and kill practioners to keep the demand, and therefore prices, on the Dalai Lama's books down...it all makes sense now.
Quote:
Awfully nice of them to keep prices low.
"We distribute the Bible only through churches and do not allow ordinary bookstores to sell them," he said. "This is aimed only at preventing illegal vendors from driving up prices."
Unlike in the western world where Bible's cost...well, you can usually pick up a free one from a church or Bible distribution agency...at one point they handed out New Testaments in schools (yes, I know you can buy an expensive one if you want).
But now I understand the persecution of Tibetan Buddhism, lock up and kill practioners to keep the demand, and therefore prices, on the Dalai Lama's books down...it all makes sense now.
