Council Member
Posts: 1,836 
Location: china
Location: china
October 29th, 2007, 03:18 AM
The desire to follow, to imitate, to be loyal, which prevails in the world at large, is the antithesis of understanding. You all want to be free, but freedom can only be achieved when you are above loyalty, above the desire to imitate,above the desire to be attached to the thoughts of another.Even among cultured people there is the tendency to reduce all ideas to form, to some definite and concrete pattern and then to reproduce that concreteness in themselves. The only way to step beyond this stage of limitation, which in its essence is mediocrity, is to aim at true freedom.
Most people think that freedom means to be able to do just what they please; but true freedom does not imply lack of discipline, or restraint and control.Permit me for a moment, I will take my own example. I have always wanted to be free,that's one of the reasons for leaving High School ;I did not want to be like everyone else in my school. And I think I am now free from the circles that have been drawn around me, that is, the circumstances around me. Everyone, in his life, has certain special circumstances, which force him, urge him to mold himself to a particular pattern. I think genius is ( I,m not implying anything) a person who frees himself from those circumstances,and grows beyond them. As I wanted to be free, I had to watch all the time what circles were being drawn round me. It is very easy to follow, to be loyal to someone else,it is easy to say...."well, this is what Maslow says" and be loyal to his thoughts , but it is much more difficult to be loyal to oneself . It seems to me that the spirit of mediocrity can only be conquered if everyone tries all the time to struggle, to put aside those influences, which urge him to conform, and to mold himself to a pattern.
Your thoughts, as always.
The desire to follow, to imitate, to be loyal, which prevails in the world at large, is the antithesis of understanding. You all want to be free, but freedom can only be achieved when you are above loyalty, above the desire to imitate,above the desire to be attached to the thoughts of another.Even among cultured people there is the tendency to reduce all ideas to form, to some definite and concrete pattern and then to reproduce that concreteness in themselves. The only way to step beyond this stage of limitation, which in its essence is mediocrity, is to aim at true freedom.
Most people think that freedom means to be able to do just what they please; but true freedom does not imply lack of discipline, or restraint and control.Permit me for a moment, I will take my own example. I have always wanted to be free,that's one of the reasons for leaving High School ;I did not want to be like everyone else in my school. And I think I am now free from the circles that have been drawn around me, that is, the circumstances around me. Everyone, in his life, has certain special circumstances, which force him, urge him to mold himself to a particular pattern. I think genius is ( I,m not implying anything) a person who frees himself from those circumstances,and grows beyond them. As I wanted to be free, I had to watch all the time what circles were being drawn round me. It is very easy to follow, to be loyal to someone else,it is easy to say...."well, this is what Maslow says" and be loyal to his thoughts , but it is much more difficult to be loyal to oneself . It seems to me that the spirit of mediocrity can only be conquered if everyone tries all the time to struggle, to put aside those influences, which urge him to conform, and to mold himself to a pattern.
Your thoughts, as always.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118 
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
October 29th, 2007, 07:44 AM
Ah, one of the true struggles of life. In some cases we absolutely need to "toe the line" or face the possibility of becoming a pariah, and for some we can not be the people we choose to be with the stigma of pariah attached. The aim is to find the balance that allows one to conform to a certain standard to be considered normal (not subject to social boycotting) but without sacrificing our individuality.
Conformity is widely viewed with derision from people of all walks of life, each pointing their fingers at others. When can anyone righteously deny that another's choice was not legitimate? If my parents pushed me into medicine, should I not become a doctor even though I enjoy the self-sacrifice and humanity of that profession simply because it would be conformity? Thinking outside the box has become the new norm, ironically.
Ah, one of the true struggles of life. In some cases we absolutely need to "toe the line" or face the possibility of becoming a pariah, and for some we can not be the people we choose to be with the stigma of pariah attached. The aim is to find the balance that allows one to conform to a certain standard to be considered normal (not subject to social boycotting) but without sacrificing our individuality.
Conformity is widely viewed with derision from people of all walks of life, each pointing their fingers at others. When can anyone righteously deny that another's choice was not legitimate? If my parents pushed me into medicine, should I not become a doctor even though I enjoy the self-sacrifice and humanity of that profession simply because it would be conformity? Thinking outside the box has become the new norm, ironically.
Time Out
Posts: 866
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
October 29th, 2007, 07:52 AM
Yes, but in thinking outside of the box, we do, in the end, conform. Why? Because as Niflmir said, it becomes the norm.
In our rebellions, conformity takes over so in the end we all conform.
You consider yourself free because you dropped out of high school? So do the many, many others that also did the same thing. How totally unoriginal.
I have read your ideas on here and you tend to get angry if someone disagrees with you. So no one if allowed to have an original idea except for you? That is how dictators think and that is not true freedom.
In the end, whether we like it or not, we all conform...some to a greater degree than others, but we all do in some way or manner.
Yes, but in thinking outside of the box, we do, in the end, conform. Why? Because as Niflmir said, it becomes the norm.
In our rebellions, conformity takes over so in the end we all conform.
You consider yourself free because you dropped out of high school? So do the many, many others that also did the same thing. How totally unoriginal.
I have read your ideas on here and you tend to get angry if someone disagrees with you. So no one if allowed to have an original idea except for you? That is how dictators think and that is not true freedom.
In the end, whether we like it or not, we all conform...some to a greater degree than others, but we all do in some way or manner.
A Mad Mulligan
Posts: 2,870
Videos: 4
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
Videos: 4
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
October 29th, 2007, 07:57 AM
Free in the context you use it is hardly what everyone wants. It's natural to liken ones self to the things we desire.
Free in the context you use it is hardly what everyone wants. It's natural to liken ones self to the things we desire.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
October 29th, 2007, 08:24 AM
The more critical nuance to the benefits or advantages accruing through mimicry is the definition of "success".....
Give it a go Juan...what does a "successful" social organizing principle, society/culture or ideology look-like..?
Quoting #juan
Mimicry is a "natural" component of the life-dynamic. For example, when a successful adaptation is made to an environment a circumstance or a condition, "success" strongly suggests that taking-on those attributes that yield success is prudent. But the utility of voluntary subscription to an idea or a belief is limited by the vagaries of chance. Social organizing principles are efforts by society to induce and/or cultivate an environment (society/culture) conducive to "successful" existence. Re-working and designing perception and perspective to achieve wealth and power through economics politics and religion at best serve only a limited number of organisms and are fleeting notions at best. Civilizations have come and gone, and from nature we can learn that all adaptation and mimicry isn't successful over the long term.
Someone once said that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. I think it is natural to liken one's self to one who we admire. Conformity can be a part of belonging that satisfies a need. Forced conformity is a cage.
The more critical nuance to the benefits or advantages accruing through mimicry is the definition of "success".....
Give it a go Juan...what does a "successful" social organizing principle, society/culture or ideology look-like..?
Super Genius
Posts: 1,041
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
October 29th, 2007, 08:41 AM
Quoting jimmoyer
That's nicely put. We do look for validation and the type of validation we look for also mimics what we have been given in the past... what we know.
Mimicry is like an echo.
We mimic others growing up, sounding the sounds of our elders.
Here on this board we like those who sound like us. We are looking for validation.
Isolation kills.
We are tuning forks.
We mimic others growing up, sounding the sounds of our elders.
Here on this board we like those who sound like us. We are looking for validation.
Isolation kills.
We are tuning forks.
October 29th, 2007, 09:10 AM
Quoting MikeyDB
ha... nope. I'm not an individualist. I'm a truly tribal creature, a conformist to the bone. I'm an incredibly family oriented people pleaser, and don't mind saying it
Karrie...
I'll bet you have a tattoo to express your individuality don't you...
I'll bet you have a tattoo to express your individuality don't you...
October 29th, 2007, 09:18 AM
I have a tattoo waiting... one I'd like to get. But it's not about individuality. It's about memoralizing. In this day and age tattoos are the norm, so I definitely don't feel like a 'rebel' getting one. lol.
I have a tattoo waiting... one I'd like to get. But it's not about individuality. It's about memoralizing. In this day and age tattoos are the norm, so I definitely don't feel like a 'rebel' getting one. lol.
Quoting MikeyDB
Good for you Karrie
My temple is perfect as well... unadorned by tribal symbolisms and ...oh wait now...isn't the history of body adornment directly related to tribalism....
I'm so confused...
My temple is perfect as well... unadorned by tribal symbolisms and ...oh wait now...isn't the history of body adornment directly related to tribalism....
I'm so confused...
Super Genius
Posts: 1,041
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
October 29th, 2007, 10:15 AM
I think we 'know" what we see and can analyse and decide as to its success. That's why I think mimicry is a successful adaptive behaviour. So is conformity.
From cave times conformity was rewarded. It was rewarded because individuality was death. They survived in packs. We still survive in packs. We live in cities beside rivers. As a group we make it possible to be an "individual" because of the now sophistication of our "pack".
Conformity for many is life. Meaning and self actualization can only come after basic needs are met.
Can one individual go off and do their own thing. Sure. But there must be basic order first in order for the masses to survive and thrive.
Quoting MikeyDB
Morning Mikey. I'm not sure what you are asking here so...sorry if I go off the rails but here goes.
Sal
But what do we "know"?
But what do we "know"?
I think we 'know" what we see and can analyse and decide as to its success. That's why I think mimicry is a successful adaptive behaviour. So is conformity.
From cave times conformity was rewarded. It was rewarded because individuality was death. They survived in packs. We still survive in packs. We live in cities beside rivers. As a group we make it possible to be an "individual" because of the now sophistication of our "pack".
Conformity for many is life. Meaning and self actualization can only come after basic needs are met.
Can one individual go off and do their own thing. Sure. But there must be basic order first in order for the masses to survive and thrive.
Quote:
Do you mean as a society or as individuals? For I think the answer would vary.
Do we "know" that our behavior has led us to the brink of disaster time and time again and then "knowing" this, do we repeat this behavior or do we adapt to reality
Executive Member
Posts: 9,222
October 29th, 2007, 10:55 AM
Quoting MikeyDB
The key Mikey, is "successful". It is hard to argue with success. Success is what people strive to mimic. Hell, it's a survival trait.
Mimicry is a "natural" component of the life-dynamic. For example, when a successful adaptation is made to an environment a circumstance or a condition, "success" strongly suggests that taking-on those attributes that yield success is prudent. But the utility of voluntary subscription to an idea or a belief is limited by the vagaries of chance. Social organizing principles are efforts by society to induce and/or cultivate an environment (society/culture) conducive to "successful" existence. Re-working and designing perception and perspective to achieve wealth and power through economics politics and religion at best serve only a limited number of organisms and are fleeting notions at best. Civilizations have come and gone, and from nature we can learn that all adaptation and mimicry isn't successful over the long term.
The more critical nuance to the benefits or advantages accruing through mimicry is the definition of "success".....
Give it a go Juan...what does a "successful" social organizing principle, society/culture or ideology look-like..?
The more critical nuance to the benefits or advantages accruing through mimicry is the definition of "success".....
Give it a go Juan...what does a "successful" social organizing principle, society/culture or ideology look-like..?
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
October 29th, 2007, 11:24 AM
Quoting #juan
Yeah, I wish it was just as easy as it is in the animal kingdom. Then we could all just wear masks and get treated like royalty.
The key Mikey, is "successful". It is hard to argue with success. Success is what people strive to mimic. Hell, it's a survival trait.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
October 29th, 2007, 11:42 AM
I'm still waiting for somone to provide me with an assessment of humanity that expresses "success"...
Is "success" simply living longer to consumer more? Is success establishing credoes and social constructs that generate competativeness...that may lead to wonderful things like starvation, slavery, world wars, mass destruction of the planetary ecosystem, bigotry hate and prejudice, wherein is this success that mimicry establishes so firmly....?
I'm still waiting for somone to provide me with an assessment of humanity that expresses "success"...
Is "success" simply living longer to consumer more? Is success establishing credoes and social constructs that generate competativeness...that may lead to wonderful things like starvation, slavery, world wars, mass destruction of the planetary ecosystem, bigotry hate and prejudice, wherein is this success that mimicry establishes so firmly....?
