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July 19th, 2007, 03:08 AM
I do not, and would not, deny the reality of your experiences, but I do challenge your interpretations of them. To put it in the simplest possible terms, you think they mean something transcendental, I think they're just an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality. Read this, for instance.
Quoting Unforgiven
Good, and thanks for respecting that. There are some things I prefer not to talk about because I've put them behind me, and on the top of that list are some of the dumb things I did in my foolish youth.
Ah so you have some experience but don't wish to share it here. Your personal life is you own mate, I've no wish to pry.
Quote:
Agreed, but other things might. The transcendental experiences commonly reported by psychedelic drug users have also been reported by people suffering physical trauma, starvation, diabetic coma, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, epileptic seizures, high fevers, and direct electrical stimulation of the brain during surgical procedures. The evidence, in other words, strongly suggests that these are pathological brain conditions that have nothing to do with anything outside the brain.
The point being that your experience doesn't invalidate my own.
I do not, and would not, deny the reality of your experiences, but I do challenge your interpretations of them. To put it in the simplest possible terms, you think they mean something transcendental, I think they're just an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality. Read this, for instance.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
July 19th, 2007, 06:26 AM
1. Do you think that any spiritual experience is anything more than "... an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality."?
2. Are you denying that "real spiritual experience" may occur during drug induced intoxication, or merely suggesting it is no more special than other forms?
One thing I did want to point out is that the "transcendental experience" is not a guaranteed effect of taking drugs. The first reported people to take magic mushrooms in western society thought they were being poisoned and went to the doctor for stomach pumps and atropine injections. This book documents it quite accurately. Only after Gordon Wasson did people actively look for these mushrooms for spiritual purposes and in large part because of Wasson's obsessive mushroom cult theory biased his perception against actual anthropological methods.
Quoting Curiosity
Have to be careful about those repressed memories. Sometimes they are merely fabrications. Weren't there a pile of wrongful convictions a few decades back based on false repressed memories of child molestation? I too think that we are using more and more brain power, but I think that has to do with our genetic development than with untapping some unknown potential. Also, people are exposed to more facts and less superstition nowadays, I think that is important for our intellectual development. Niflmir
You write:
I like to hope that our brains are being used more fully as the centuries pass along - as we are certainly storing much more detailed information into them and I expect there is enough room to absorb all of the input.
The 10% use thing is one of the mythical things which people often turn into sayings of import.... especially when they can connect it to a 'learned figure' of the past..... even Freud was a drug addict - so much for knowing one's own psyche eh?
We may be using much of our brain throughout our lives as we continually stuff new information into it - but hopefully we are not at 100% 'immediate recall' of all the information - for that would offer an invitation to a breakdown in information dissemination and use. Thank god we forget and/or store much of the learned material to be used later or better still 'ignored'.
Sometimes what is not recognized is our behavior may be guided by 'forgotten information' and if we find we are not pleased at our reactions at some event in our lives or have a 'fetish' about something, we have the forgotten information stored in our heads - and ignored as nature would have it - it being unpleasant or anxiety producing. Therapy dwells on digging out much of that 'stuff' .... if it affects someone's behavior in a negative way.
You write:
I like to hope that our brains are being used more fully as the centuries pass along - as we are certainly storing much more detailed information into them and I expect there is enough room to absorb all of the input.
The 10% use thing is one of the mythical things which people often turn into sayings of import.... especially when they can connect it to a 'learned figure' of the past..... even Freud was a drug addict - so much for knowing one's own psyche eh?
We may be using much of our brain throughout our lives as we continually stuff new information into it - but hopefully we are not at 100% 'immediate recall' of all the information - for that would offer an invitation to a breakdown in information dissemination and use. Thank god we forget and/or store much of the learned material to be used later or better still 'ignored'.
Sometimes what is not recognized is our behavior may be guided by 'forgotten information' and if we find we are not pleased at our reactions at some event in our lives or have a 'fetish' about something, we have the forgotten information stored in our heads - and ignored as nature would have it - it being unpleasant or anxiety producing. Therapy dwells on digging out much of that 'stuff' .... if it affects someone's behavior in a negative way.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Two questions Dexter:
Good, and thanks for respecting that. There are some things I prefer not to talk about because I've put them behind me, and on the top of that list are some of the dumb things I did in my foolish youth.
Agreed, but other things might. The transcendental experiences commonly reported by psychedelic drug users have also been reported by people suffering physical trauma, starvation, diabetic coma, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, epileptic seizures, high fevers, and direct electrical stimulation of the brain during surgical procedures. The evidence, in other words, strongly suggests that these are pathological brain conditions that have nothing to do with anything outside the brain.
I do not, and would not, deny the reality of your experiences, but I do challenge your interpretations of them. To put it in the simplest possible terms, you think they mean something transcendental, I think they're just an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality. Read this, for instance.
Agreed, but other things might. The transcendental experiences commonly reported by psychedelic drug users have also been reported by people suffering physical trauma, starvation, diabetic coma, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, epileptic seizures, high fevers, and direct electrical stimulation of the brain during surgical procedures. The evidence, in other words, strongly suggests that these are pathological brain conditions that have nothing to do with anything outside the brain.
I do not, and would not, deny the reality of your experiences, but I do challenge your interpretations of them. To put it in the simplest possible terms, you think they mean something transcendental, I think they're just an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality. Read this, for instance.
1. Do you think that any spiritual experience is anything more than "... an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality."?
2. Are you denying that "real spiritual experience" may occur during drug induced intoxication, or merely suggesting it is no more special than other forms?
One thing I did want to point out is that the "transcendental experience" is not a guaranteed effect of taking drugs. The first reported people to take magic mushrooms in western society thought they were being poisoned and went to the doctor for stomach pumps and atropine injections. This book documents it quite accurately. Only after Gordon Wasson did people actively look for these mushrooms for spiritual purposes and in large part because of Wasson's obsessive mushroom cult theory biased his perception against actual anthropological methods.
Senate Member
Posts: 6,500
July 19th, 2007, 07:01 AM
Niflmir
You write:
The key here is the repression which can do much damage is repetition of negative behavior throughout one's immediate life for which there can be no explanation until a journey inward becomes an exercise in excavation of buried thought, avoidance behavior and refusing to acknowledge weakness in certain areas, etc. with the goal in mind of freeing oneself to some measure of relief.
I am now a bore listing everything here as you obviously understand the routine... I am pleased more people are aware of the possibilities of what we ourselves can accomplish and overcome - the more we learn and experience on a personal basis, the more enriched our lives can be.
Whether drugs can pave the way is still an unanswered question for me personally.
Niflmir
You write:
Quote:
Ah...the old daddy diddled me which became popular fodder and wrecked many families.... repressed memories have to be treated like delicate crystal because memories, especially childhood ones, are often misinterpretations of real events and when a popular theme begins to make its way through society such as the child molestation one. Unfortunately some well meaning people actually believed a hug meant more, a kiss was incest, and so on.
Have to be careful about those repressed memories. Sometimes they are merely fabrications. Weren't there a pile of wrongful convictions a few decades back based on false repressed memories of child molestation? I too think that we are using more and more brain power, but I think that has to do with our genetic development than with untapping some unknown potential. Also, people are exposed to more facts and less superstition nowadays, I think that is important for our intellectual development.
The key here is the repression which can do much damage is repetition of negative behavior throughout one's immediate life for which there can be no explanation until a journey inward becomes an exercise in excavation of buried thought, avoidance behavior and refusing to acknowledge weakness in certain areas, etc. with the goal in mind of freeing oneself to some measure of relief.
I am now a bore listing everything here as you obviously understand the routine... I am pleased more people are aware of the possibilities of what we ourselves can accomplish and overcome - the more we learn and experience on a personal basis, the more enriched our lives can be.
Whether drugs can pave the way is still an unanswered question for me personally.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
July 19th, 2007, 07:29 AM
After I stopped using drugs I even gave up the "little" drugs like acetaminophen, alcohol and caffeine for the longest while. I basically drank water and ate normal foods but no more. It was a long time before I slowly and carefully re-exposed myself to these chemicals. To this day I stay away from Tylenol and Advil because I can do with out it and I don't want to be dependent on a pill to deal with a headache.
The fact that I was prescribed risparidal to overcome the psychosis had a large part to do with my decision. When you come right down to it, I was told, "Drugs caused this problem and drugs are going to solve this problem." I decided to get out of the loop on my own.
After I stopped using drugs I even gave up the "little" drugs like acetaminophen, alcohol and caffeine for the longest while. I basically drank water and ate normal foods but no more. It was a long time before I slowly and carefully re-exposed myself to these chemicals. To this day I stay away from Tylenol and Advil because I can do with out it and I don't want to be dependent on a pill to deal with a headache.
The fact that I was prescribed risparidal to overcome the psychosis had a large part to do with my decision. When you come right down to it, I was told, "Drugs caused this problem and drugs are going to solve this problem." I decided to get out of the loop on my own.
Senate Member
Posts: 6,500
July 19th, 2007, 07:49 AM
Niflmir
Well said! We are products of the mass advertising age - when instant relief is mandatory - rather than checking out the message of the 'nagging problem' and finding a solution which involves a bit more time and some self-care.
In your case however, it would seem the cure worked and you are back with us.
(As I sit here pretending I know so much drinking my decaf wondering if there is any caffeine lurking in the mixture???
)...
There is always something new to learn about ourselves and often we think we are being too insecure or worse - indulgent when some self-reflection could make the day more comfortable.
Niflmir
Well said! We are products of the mass advertising age - when instant relief is mandatory - rather than checking out the message of the 'nagging problem' and finding a solution which involves a bit more time and some self-care.
In your case however, it would seem the cure worked and you are back with us.
(As I sit here pretending I know so much drinking my decaf wondering if there is any caffeine lurking in the mixture???
)... There is always something new to learn about ourselves and often we think we are being too insecure or worse - indulgent when some self-reflection could make the day more comfortable.
Council Member
Posts: 1,434
Location: Tula
Location: Tula
July 19th, 2007, 08:25 AM
All of my trips have taken place in a shamanic setting. Each time I had shaped a definite goal before going on a trip - to do that and that thing, or to change myself in that or that way. I did have a lot of fun, and I experience a lot of positive emotions in a trip, and I saw a lot of interesting things, in no way connected to these goals of mine, but most of the trip was real serious work. And before tripping with a substance I didn't try before, I did quite a lot of reading, and asked people who've done it, so as to know what to expect, at least in a vague way. But this is how I do it.
And I have some questions to everyone here, I hope you won't find them too personal. When you trip, what is your approach? What do you want from a trip? What first made you go on a trip? Did your opinion of psychedelics change after a trip or several trips? In your opinion, what is the scariest thing about tripping? And what is the greatest benefit? If you stopped doing psychedelics after a time, what made you stop? And how often do you trip? What is the time that should, in your opinion, elapse betweent two trips? Another questions is - why is that that psychedelics are such a controversial issue? Even when it comes to harder drugs, like heroin or cocaine, the controversy is much less. Why is that, what do you think?
After reading all the thoughtful and interesting replies in this thread, I will be really looking forward to your ideas.
Quoting Unforgiven
You were absolutely right to point this out to me, Unforgiven. I am here talking to everyone, basing on my own approach to psychedelics and on the goals that I pursued while tripping. But this is just my approach, and just my goals.
You know I was with you right up until we got into all this stuff. Drugs are as I've mentioned before, like a good tool. In the right hands, it can produce miraculas amounts of creativity and act as a catalyst to view thoughts and develop ideas from a different view point than you might have had without them.
At the same time, they have attractive qualities that for most of the people who try them without guidence, are "trippy" and fun for a while. It seems that this nonsence that all drugs are good for all people is only used by those control freaks among us who either want people to buy into their story or scare you away from others.
At the same time, they have attractive qualities that for most of the people who try them without guidence, are "trippy" and fun for a while. It seems that this nonsence that all drugs are good for all people is only used by those control freaks among us who either want people to buy into their story or scare you away from others.
All of my trips have taken place in a shamanic setting. Each time I had shaped a definite goal before going on a trip - to do that and that thing, or to change myself in that or that way. I did have a lot of fun, and I experience a lot of positive emotions in a trip, and I saw a lot of interesting things, in no way connected to these goals of mine, but most of the trip was real serious work. And before tripping with a substance I didn't try before, I did quite a lot of reading, and asked people who've done it, so as to know what to expect, at least in a vague way. But this is how I do it.And I have some questions to everyone here, I hope you won't find them too personal. When you trip, what is your approach? What do you want from a trip? What first made you go on a trip? Did your opinion of psychedelics change after a trip or several trips? In your opinion, what is the scariest thing about tripping? And what is the greatest benefit? If you stopped doing psychedelics after a time, what made you stop? And how often do you trip? What is the time that should, in your opinion, elapse betweent two trips? Another questions is - why is that that psychedelics are such a controversial issue? Even when it comes to harder drugs, like heroin or cocaine, the controversy is much less. Why is that, what do you think?
After reading all the thoughtful and interesting replies in this thread, I will be really looking forward to your ideas.
Council Member
Posts: 1,434
Location: Tula
Location: Tula
July 19th, 2007, 08:32 AM
Quoting Curiosity
I totally agree, Curiosity. Being too insecure, being too indulgent towards our shortcomings or weaknesses, and another great danger - being too sure of our own perfection. These traits are so subtle at first, it's easy not to notice them at all, until they grow into something really huge. And a little daily self-reflection and self-analysis is the very thing to nip them in the bud.
There is always something new to learn about ourselves and often we think we are being too insecure or worse - indulgent when some self-reflection could make the day more comfortable.
Council Member
Posts: 1,434
Location: Tula
Location: Tula
July 19th, 2007, 08:50 AM
Quoting Dexter Sinister
This passage reminded me of Castaneda. I am not a great believer in Castaneda, by the way, but I have read several of his books at some period in my life. One of the basic notions in the books that I have read was the "assemblage point". If I still get it right, the point is that the way you perceive reality depends largely upon the position of your assemblage point. The usual kind of awareness and perception is caused by a certain position of that assemblage point. If you move it - your perception changes. The assemblage point can be moved by taking psychedelics, after a lot of training it can be moved according to your wish, or it can change its position under the influence of some stressful factors, such as - physical trauma, starvation, sleep deprevation, and all of the factors that you have mentioned. So, if you agree with what Castaneda wrote, you won't find any controversy here. There are a lot of truths in this world...
Agreed, but other things might. The transcendental experiences commonly reported by psychedelic drug users have also been reported by people suffering physical trauma, starvation, diabetic coma, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, epileptic seizures, high fevers, and direct electrical stimulation of the brain during surgical procedures. The evidence, in other words, strongly suggests that these are pathological brain conditions that have nothing to do with anything outside the brain.
War Minister
Posts: 3,061
Videos: 4
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
Videos: 4
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
July 19th, 2007, 09:41 AM
Transcendental is not the right word or at least the context is wrong for my meaning. If I dream of something and then make it happen, how is that not a physical reality of what I have in my brain?
If I experience some insight into something I haven't considered before while under the influence and in discussion with someone else who also is high, then what's to say that the physical manifestation of that idea isn't real?
We rationalize things in a way that makes sense to us. So if someone who has a deep spiritual interest finds some idea they feel is enlightened and rationalize that as God coming down from Heaven and touching their mind, isn't that their interpretation of what is essentially the same as a electrochemical flush of some sort in the brain that effects this insight?
Quoting Dexter Sinister
I would have to say that spirituality is one of the most internal things we can experience. The brain is in a constant electrochemical state. Some people lack a chemical balance that leads to irrationality and often treated with chemicals to balance out the brain's cocktail.
Good, and thanks for respecting that. There are some things I prefer not to talk about because I've put them behind me, and on the top of that list are some of the dumb things I did in my foolish youth.
Agreed, but other things might. The transcendental experiences commonly reported by psychedelic drug users have also been reported by people suffering physical trauma, starvation, diabetic coma, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, epileptic seizures, high fevers, and direct electrical stimulation of the brain during surgical procedures. The evidence, in other words, strongly suggests that these are pathological brain conditions that have nothing to do with anything outside the brain.
I do not, and would not, deny the reality of your experiences, but I do challenge your interpretations of them. To put it in the simplest possible terms, you think they mean something transcendental, I think they're just an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality. Read this, for instance.
Agreed, but other things might. The transcendental experiences commonly reported by psychedelic drug users have also been reported by people suffering physical trauma, starvation, diabetic coma, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, epileptic seizures, high fevers, and direct electrical stimulation of the brain during surgical procedures. The evidence, in other words, strongly suggests that these are pathological brain conditions that have nothing to do with anything outside the brain.
I do not, and would not, deny the reality of your experiences, but I do challenge your interpretations of them. To put it in the simplest possible terms, you think they mean something transcendental, I think they're just an artificially induced electrochemical state in the brain that has nothing to do with any external reality. Read this, for instance.
Transcendental is not the right word or at least the context is wrong for my meaning. If I dream of something and then make it happen, how is that not a physical reality of what I have in my brain?
If I experience some insight into something I haven't considered before while under the influence and in discussion with someone else who also is high, then what's to say that the physical manifestation of that idea isn't real?
We rationalize things in a way that makes sense to us. So if someone who has a deep spiritual interest finds some idea they feel is enlightened and rationalize that as God coming down from Heaven and touching their mind, isn't that their interpretation of what is essentially the same as a electrochemical flush of some sort in the brain that effects this insight?
War Minister
Posts: 3,061
Videos: 4
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
Videos: 4
Location: The Moonsine Cafe
July 19th, 2007, 09:43 AM
Quoting Vereya
I'd like to get into this more but for the time being will have to beg off. I'll formulate an answer though and pass that along in due course.
You were absolutely right to point this out to me, Unforgiven. I am here talking to everyone, basing on my own approach to psychedelics and on the goals that I pursued while tripping. But this is just my approach, and just my goals. All of my trips have taken place in a shamanic setting. Each time I had shaped a definite goal before going on a trip - to do that and that thing, or to change myself in that or that way. I did have a lot of fun, and I experience a lot of positive emotions in a trip, and I saw a lot of interesting things, in no way connected to these goals of mine, but most of the trip was real serious work. And before tripping with a substance I didn't try before, I did quite a lot of reading, and asked people who've done it, so as to know what to expect, at least in a vague way. But this is how I do it.
And I have some questions to everyone here, I hope you won't find them too personal. When you trip, what is your approach? What do you want from a trip? What first made you go on a trip? Did your opinion of psychedelics change after a trip or several trips? In your opinion, what is the scariest thing about tripping? And what is the greatest benefit? If you stopped doing psychedelics after a time, what made you stop? And how often do you trip? What is the time that should, in your opinion, elapse betweent two trips? Another questions is - why is that that psychedelics are such a controversial issue? Even when it comes to harder drugs, like heroin or cocaine, the controversy is much less. Why is that, what do you think?
After reading all the thoughtful and interesting replies in this thread, I will be really looking forward to your ideas.
All of my trips have taken place in a shamanic setting. Each time I had shaped a definite goal before going on a trip - to do that and that thing, or to change myself in that or that way. I did have a lot of fun, and I experience a lot of positive emotions in a trip, and I saw a lot of interesting things, in no way connected to these goals of mine, but most of the trip was real serious work. And before tripping with a substance I didn't try before, I did quite a lot of reading, and asked people who've done it, so as to know what to expect, at least in a vague way. But this is how I do it.And I have some questions to everyone here, I hope you won't find them too personal. When you trip, what is your approach? What do you want from a trip? What first made you go on a trip? Did your opinion of psychedelics change after a trip or several trips? In your opinion, what is the scariest thing about tripping? And what is the greatest benefit? If you stopped doing psychedelics after a time, what made you stop? And how often do you trip? What is the time that should, in your opinion, elapse betweent two trips? Another questions is - why is that that psychedelics are such a controversial issue? Even when it comes to harder drugs, like heroin or cocaine, the controversy is much less. Why is that, what do you think?
After reading all the thoughtful and interesting replies in this thread, I will be really looking forward to your ideas.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
July 19th, 2007, 09:54 AM
I agree with the observation that Castenedas story depicts a frame of mind or a propensity to regard existence in the light of the entirely subjective.
If we're capable of creating stories and erecting imaginable 'heavens' and 'hells' and ascribing supernatural qualities abilities and skills to imaginary figures....when we're sober and un-influenced by drugs of any kind....when we give this consciousness over to deeply seated fears and unreslolved conflicts in an altered state of consciousness can we reliably depend on the images the messages and the "voice" that we see and hear?
Any decent scientist would hold the door open on possibility, but do our experiences or the experiences reported by anyone consuming mind-altering substances with respect to visions and voices proceed to choices and actions that have manifestly improved the human condition?
If an altered brain wave, jouncing along on a stream of neurotransmitters buoyed in a bath of artificial "enhancers" provided access to and motivation to act on this artificial "clarity" for the betterment of the human condition, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that we'd have empirical evidence and oberveable outcomes that have influenced humanity?
Many wild creatures "self-medicate", and if we subscribe to the idea that animal consciousness is different yet parallel to human consciousness, is there anything beyond the changes to body chemistry and chemicals that stimulate the pleasure centers behind this behavior?
Is it reasonable to entertain the idea that the affect that these animals find pleasing...can or ought to be utilize as rationale in searching for some "higher-awareness" out of using human consciousness altered through similar kinds of behavior?
I don't think so.
I agree with the observation that Castenedas story depicts a frame of mind or a propensity to regard existence in the light of the entirely subjective.
If we're capable of creating stories and erecting imaginable 'heavens' and 'hells' and ascribing supernatural qualities abilities and skills to imaginary figures....when we're sober and un-influenced by drugs of any kind....when we give this consciousness over to deeply seated fears and unreslolved conflicts in an altered state of consciousness can we reliably depend on the images the messages and the "voice" that we see and hear?
Any decent scientist would hold the door open on possibility, but do our experiences or the experiences reported by anyone consuming mind-altering substances with respect to visions and voices proceed to choices and actions that have manifestly improved the human condition?
If an altered brain wave, jouncing along on a stream of neurotransmitters buoyed in a bath of artificial "enhancers" provided access to and motivation to act on this artificial "clarity" for the betterment of the human condition, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that we'd have empirical evidence and oberveable outcomes that have influenced humanity?
Many wild creatures "self-medicate", and if we subscribe to the idea that animal consciousness is different yet parallel to human consciousness, is there anything beyond the changes to body chemistry and chemicals that stimulate the pleasure centers behind this behavior?
Is it reasonable to entertain the idea that the affect that these animals find pleasing...can or ought to be utilize as rationale in searching for some "higher-awareness" out of using human consciousness altered through similar kinds of behavior?
I don't think so.
