Karma - A rational approach

[gc]

I believe in Karma. Now, before you go getting all skeptical, let me explain why...

I believe humans are (relatively) moral because of evolution. If our ancestors all went around killing each other, our species would have been extinct a long time ago. We have to co-operate to survive as a species. Thus, we evolved a sense of "morality".

When we do something "bad" we feel guilty about it, when we do something "good" we feel good about ourselves. I think we've all experienced how on good days, everything seems to go right, and on bad days, everything seems to go wrong. It's all about confidence. When we feel confident about ourselves, things tend to go well for us. When we lack confidence, things go badly. Doing good things for others gives us confidence, and that in turn improves our own lives. That is karma in a nutshell, in my opinion.

So, why not go out and try it? Give some money to charity, and see how good it makes you feel, and then see how well your day goes. :smile:






(Note: When I say "karma" I am not referring to re-incarnation...simply that when you do good things, good things happen to you)

 

[Kreskin]

Makes a lot of sense. Good post.

 

[tamarin]

So what's the karma and reincarnation connection? That has to be the glue.

 

[gc]

So what's the karma and reincarnation connection? That has to be the glue.

I don't believe in re-incarnation. I guess when I say "karma", I am using the term loosely.

 

[gc]

Makes a lot of sense. Good post.

Thanks :smile:

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I believe in Karma. Now, before you go getting all skeptical, let me explain why...

That's not what karma means. Karma is one of the laws of Hinduism, and claims that everything you do, no matter how trivial and insignificant, will eventually return to you with equal impact. Reincarnation is central to the idea: squash a bug in this life and you'll return as a bug in some subsequent life and get squashed. Or to put it more generally, whatever good and bad things happen to you in this life are rewards and punishments for good and bad things you've done in previous lives, and you should therefore do as much good as you can in this life so your subsequent lives will be better. Makes a certain amount of sense on that level, but I find it a deeply insidious and fatalistic idea. It means that everybody's getting what they deserve, including, for instance, the abused and neglected child of drug-addled parents, so no intervention is necessary. The kid's being paid back for wickedness in a previous life. Logically, your karma score should be increased by helping anyway, but you won't lose points for doing nothing, because the child deserves the misery.

I'd agree with everything else in your post, but what you're talking about is elementary morality and attitude, not karma.

 

[s_lone]

gc,

It's hard to not agree with you if we accept the word 'karma' in the relatively loose meaning that you give it. We pretty much all have that part of us that knows when we've done good or wrong.

That being said. I can't help wondering if there's a 'true' karma in the more traditional sense of the term. And the traditional sense of the word pretty much implies reincarnation or at least some form of after-life. From my own very personal point of view, I tend to think there is some form of karma that is based upon universal principles and not upon exlclusively human ones.

 

[gc]

That's not what karma means.

Like I said in my subsequent post, I use the word "karma" loosely. Perhaps I should have chosen another word? The way I used it is the way it is commonly used, even if that's not the correct usage.

 

[s_lone]

That's not what karma means. Karma is one of the laws of Hinduism, and claims that everything you do, no matter how trivial and insignificant, will eventually return to you with equal impact. Reincarnation is central to the idea: squash a bug in this life and you'll return as a bug in some subsequent life and get squashed. Or to put it more generally, whatever good and bad things happen to you in this life are rewards and punishments for good and bad things you've done in previous lives, and you should therefore do as much good as you can in this life so your subsequent lives will be better. Makes a certain amount of sense on that level, but I find it a deeply insidious and fatalistic idea. It means that everybody's getting what they deserve, including, for instance, the abused and neglected child of drug-addled parents, so no intervention is necessary. The kid's being paid back for wickedness in a previous life. Logically, your karma score should be increased by helping anyway, but you won't lose points for doing nothing, because the child deserves the misery.

I'd agree with everything else in your post, but what you're talking about is elementary morality and attitude, not karma.

You summarize well the problems that come with believing in karma in the Hindu traditional sense. The idea that those who are in **** deserve to be in **** is a very coward way to see the world in my opinion and despite my interest for the religion, this is one of the aspects of Hinduism that keeps me away from it.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Like I said in my subsequent post, I use the word "karma" loosely. Perhaps I should have chosen another word? The way I used it is the way it is commonly used, even if that's not the correct usage.

Well, common usage changes the meanings of words, that's how language evolves, and I'm not one of those language Nazis who insist that words have precise and fixed meanings. They obviously don't. To take the most obvious example, the word 'gay' currently means something totally different from what it meant only 40 years ago. I don't know what other word you could have chosen, and it was perfectly clear what you meant, so that probably justifies your usage of it, but the word still has mystic overtones that you clearly didn't mean. I just tend to be a little pedantic sometimes. I'm sure that in the interests of improving your karma, you'll forgive me that... ;-)

 

[gc]

I'm sure that in the interests of improving your karma, you'll forgive me that... ;-)

No worries :smile:

 

[Vereya]

Karma is another name for the cause and effect relation. When you do something, no matter what, you create a cause. This cause creates certain effects. The kind of the effects you get depends on the kind of cause you have created. This is something that constantly works in everyone's life. If you create a right kind of cause, you get the right kind of effect. The wrong kind of cause - the wrong kind of effect. I like to use words "right" and "wrong" here, because "good" and "bad" are very relative notions. Whether something is good or bad depends only on one's point of view.

 

[El Barto]

In principle I agree, but.......
In my experience, leaving out reincarnation and dealing only with the present life, Some of us are do gooders no matter what and life still throws road apples at you. You seem to believe in direct return on your actions, under lining the word seem. I had a friend who got into the new age spirituality stuff only because that those who were enlightened were materially well off. Well I guess that's what caught his eye. To his dismay it didn't work out for him. Good action or Bad action doesn't really matter as a whole , its the intent that counts. If it came from the heart in a selfless act then that is good and the reward is the act its self. If a good act is done only for the sole purpose of a reward then your out of luck.
Oh beware of your so called generous people around you. Those that hold their generosity as a mortgage payment on you. Generosity is given freely, no strings attached. That's how you should give.
Stay away from those purposely generous people.

 

[Vereya]

In principle I agree, but.......
In my experience, leaving out reincarnation and dealing only with the present life, Some of us are do gooders no matter what and life still throws road apples at you.

I think that it is a little bit more complicated than good people being happy and contented in life. it is actually the reason I avoided using the words "good" and "bad" in my post. You see, it is the result of our actions, rather than the action itself, that counts. Sometimes an action can be good in itself, aimed at helping someone, and the motive of the doer can be good, but it doesn't turn out to anyone's benefit.

And as for the generous people, I totally agree with you, El Barto. Moreover, I would include "kind" people as well. Whenever I come across a person, whose main characteristic, in everyone else's eyes, is that he or she is very kind, I try to stay away from that person. And I find that I am mostly right about that.

 

[tamarin]

For Karma to work, a hugely able intelligence must be in charge. So I should think if you believe in karma, you also believe in God. Who else could keep track of the trillions of cause and effect relationships that must achieve balance? Karma suggests an immensely well organized universe. Something much above our ken.

 

[El Barto]

Vereya, I used the "good" and "bad " loosly to simplify it. I know very well its much more complex then that.

 

[Pangloss]

Dr. Joseph Mengele did the most horrific and monstrous experiments on inmates of Germany's various concentration camps -especially on twins. I'll not go into detail here - there is plenty of good material on him and his crimes against humanity, quite a bit of it here on the web.

He died in Argentina, wealthy, a friend of the rich and the powerful, respected and by all accounts, happy and at peace with himself. He died of a heart attack while joyfully chasing his granddaughter through the surf. Again, this is all documented.

If this man did not experience "karma" (or moral payback or whatever you want to call it) how could it possibly exist for anyone else?

Pangloss

 

[tamarin]

Pangloss, the man's an anomaly. He slipped the grid. Of course, this will mean demotions and celestial hearings for those who messed up on this one. Reverberations make the system work.

 

[El Barto]

i guess its not so simple to comprehend. Then again only he can tell us if he had any secret remorse, we'll never know.

 

[Pangloss]

Pangloss, the man's an anomaly. He slipped the grid. Of course, this will mean demotions and celestial hearings for those who messed up on this one. Reverberations make the system work.

I dig the joke. Of course he is just the best example - evil (secular definition, not the mushy spiritual definition) thrives and is rewarded all the time.

George Bush, slumlords, tobacco companies, loansharks - these folks have all done pretty well.

Karma or payback or whatever - it is all just a way to mollify the powerless, to keep us from getting angry and demanding justice here and now.

Occam's razor: which is the simpler answer?

Karma is a human invention as a tool for political control of the lower classes (heaven is a kind of karma), or that there is some kind of celestial bookkeeper balancing the moral accounts of every life?

I'll go with the answer that doesn't require ghosts.

Pangloss