Intelligent Design is a legitimate concept

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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I'm not one who questions the evidence given to us by science concerning evolution. But I’m also not one who will be intellectually satisfied by what science teaches us about the world. My quest for meaning is too strong for that. Science can tell me what an atom is made of, but it can’t tell me why that atom is actually there. It can’t tell me why a bunch of atoms have structured themselves together into a thinking and relatively conscious human being. Science can’t tell me if my deceased loved ones still exist beyond my memories of them. It can’t tell me what is the meaning and purpose of my life.

Perhaps science will reach a point where it can truly tackle these issues but that day is still far. For now, the scientific method can at least give us precious knowledge, helping us give a deeper perspective to our existential questions which in the end, really belong to philosophy.

The concept of intelligent design deals with one of these fundamental existential/philosophical questions. Is there a source of intelligence to which we can attribute the cause and roots of the existence of the Earth’s biosystem?

Science can go a long way into explaining biological mechanisms, but it can’t tell us whether these mechanisms are the result of intelligent creativity.

If we were to land on Mars and discover a huge machine extracting minerals from the planet, we would without a doubt conclude that this mineral extracting machine was built by intelligent beings. Why? Because we know very well there isn’t a chance in the world this machine could have built itself by chance. Because we recognize intelligence when we see it. The machine has a clear purpose: extracting minerals.

We apply the same reasoning when we see a heart carved into a tree with a name in it. We know a thinking person carved it into the tree because it’s totally illogical to think otherwise. While the purpose of the carved heart isn’t as clear as the mineral extracting machine, it is at least crystal clear it originates from an action that was thought out by a person of relative intelligence.

What about life itself? Plants, bacteria, animals and human beings? What about the mechanisms of biology? Is there intelligence behind the phenomenon of life? Why is it so hard to answer that question? And why do some people think they can answer it with so much conviction? The problem with the ID concept applied to life and biology is that the observed subject is so damned rich and complex that it’s very hard to imagine the intelligence that would be behind all this. It’s easy to recognize human activity when we see it because we ourselves are human. We recognize one another. After discovering the mineral extracting machine on Mars, we would either conclude the ones who built the machines are extraterrestrial beings relatively similar to us in their way of thinking or that the builders were humans who came to Mars without us being aware of it! But when we question the possible intelligent source of biological life itself, we are in a whole other ball game. The intelligence needed to come up with such an elaborate system would be so incredibly superior to ours it’s hard to conceptualize it.

Fact is, there is nothing magic about life and biology; no physical laws are broken. It all seems explainable by science to a certain extent, as long as we don’t ask why such a thing exists at all. If we are to conclude there is intelligence behind the process of life, we might as well conclude this intelligence is behind the existence of the universe (or megaverse) itself. But that is quite a leap of faith. To the materialist, life is not special at all; it is simply the result of mechanic laws and principles in action. When you drop a rock, it will fall on the ground because of gravity. No intelligence there… Or is there? Can the concept of intelligent design be applied to the laws of physics?

My conclusion to all this is that whether or not you see some form of intelligent design in life and the universe itself is all a question of personal subjectivity. Can we really be objective on the subject? We can try, and science can certainly help us a lot, but I believe we must accept the limits of the scientific method into giving meaning to life itself. Science should stop spitting on the concept of ID as if it was a primitive and stupid concept. The concept of ID belongs to philosophy and if scientists want to debate it, they must accept to not think exclusively in scientific terms. The same should apply to religious folks who use the concept to pursue their agenda. Most human beings don’t have the same religion as you so you might as well accept debating on the neutral ground philosophy offers us.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
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s_lone- By writing that you have shown that you are asking questions and you still have an open mind. But have you really got an open mind? We will soon see!

You said: "I'm not one who questions the evidence given to us by science concerning evolution. But I’m also not one who will be intellectually satisfied by what science teaches us about the world. My quest for meaning is too strong for that. Science can tell me what an atom is made of, but it can’t tell me why that atom is actually there. It can’t tell me why a bunch of atoms have structured themselves together into a thinking and relatively conscious human being. Science can’t tell me if my deceased loved ones still exist beyond my memories of them. It can’t tell me what is the meaning and purpose of my life."

Science can give you answers for everything you listed above except the last two. But science can certainly educate you to the point where you will make an intelligent assumption on whether or not your deceased loved ones still exist beyond your memories. And the final one, science can't answer but once you are fully informed about science, which you are not at the present, you can also intelligently reject the hocus-pocus religions which attempt to tell you the meaning of life. Actually in my own personal case it has also answered the last question for me too.

I won't go on to answer some of your other questions now but if you pursue any of them I will for you. And I won't point out that you have made several wrong assumptions about ID but that also can be pursued further if you care to. I will tell you to read a book. It is Richard Dawkins latest, 'The God Delusion', because it will give you all the answers to the questions you have asked and at the same time set you straight on your misconceptions on ID, random chance, and natural selection.

And then after you have read that book we will be able to answer my one and only question to you:

Do you really have an open mind?

We'll see!
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
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Intelligent design is a totally illegitimate concept, it's dishonest of religion to promote it, and it flies in the face of evolution completely and totally. If one needs to accept intelligent design then he/she also needs to accept creation over evolution entirely. That means that he has to accept the bible entirely, including the 6000-10000 year earth theory completely. There is no half-way believing allowed. God's word as read in the bible must be accepted 100%, and one must somehow reconcile the discrepancies within one bible itself and the discrepancies between the other bibles. It simply can't be done and if you don't then you bury your head in the sand.

In other words, accept the lies and live them or search for the truth. Science can give you the truth but people have to be courageous enough to learn from science. If reading books such as Richard Dawkins writes is sacrilege to you then you will never knonw the truth. You will search for it for the rest of your life and die ignorant of the truth.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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lieexpsr

Who in the hell made you an authority on this or any subject? Your posts are rude, arrogant, and a pain in the a$$. Rather than attacking members with every post, why don't you just try to get along with people. Your favourite theme seems to be knocking religion. While I'm not particularly religious myself, I know some very good people who happen to be religious. Common decency tells us to show a little respect for people's beliefs and feelings. It is time you learned this.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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In other words, accept the lies and live them or search for the truth. Science can give you the truth but people have to be courageous enough to learn from science. If reading books such as Richard Dawkins writes is sacrilege to you then you will never knonw the truth. You will search for it for the rest of your life and die ignorant of the truth.

How open-minded of you!

:)

Seriously, though, I can't get my head around the concept that life, the universe and everything is simply a collossal accident, which is what science leaves us with.

After asking us to accept that concept, they belittle and dismiss the concept of intelligent design, or any philosophy that denotes a higher power.

Then they accuse believers of having a closed mind......(see above)

Sorry, I'm not that gullible.

Science and technology have simply become the new religion for some............blind faith still required.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
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lieexpsr

Who in the hell made you an authority on this or any subject? Your posts are rude, arrogant, and a pain in the a$$. Rather than attacking members with every post, why don't you just try to get along with people. Your favourite theme seems to be knocking religion. While I'm not particularly religious myself, I know some very good people who happen to be religious. Common decency tells us to show a little respect for people's beliefs and feelings. It is time you learned this.

That is you opinion and I am really not all that interested in your opinion or even the opinion of others all that much if they can't address the issues. I note though that you have mentioned the expanding and contracting universe in an earlier post so you probably are capable of better than that!

Have a nice day!
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
18
How open-minded of you!

:)

Seriously, though, I can't get my head around the concept that life, the universe and everything is simply a collossal accident, which is what science leaves us with.

After asking us to accept that concept, they belittle and dismiss the concept of intelligent design, or any philosophy that denotes a higher power.

Then they accuse believers of having a closed mind......(see above)

Sorry, I'm not that gullible.

Science and technology have simply become the new religion for some............blind faith still required.

Yes but you are closeminded because you won't go to the trouble of learning what science has to teach you. You even err by referring to the universe as a collosal accident and that's probably because you are still stuck on the idea of random chance. It's wrong and modernscience never ever suggested that it was the answer. If you took the trouble to understand what natural selection is you may begin to see it all different. No blind faith is require at all.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
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And BTW Juan, why do you call yourself Steven Hawking's tudor when you clearly are not amenable to the truth which Steven Hawking teaches you. He's another atheist/agnostic you know.

And also BTW, I'm in Nanaimo too so we may be sitting next door to each other! I could accept 'random chance' in that! ;-)
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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I understand perfectly what natural selection is.......you've underestimated my interest in, and my knowledge of such things.

Natural selection and intelligent design are not mutually exclusive...............

Unless, of course, you have a closed mind.
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
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No Colpy, ID is totally rejected by mainstream science. And maybe the reason why I underestimate you is because you tend to be a hit and run artist. When I have challenged you in the past you have disappeared.

My problem is not that I have a closed mind but that my mind has been opened by science. That 'is' a problem for some people I will admit. And it doesn't make me popular around here either I suppose, but then again, I think some things are more important on a forum than popularity. But we can get around to talking about that if you don't run from the discussion.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Don't usually run....but gotta go to work now :)

Which is often my problem. I just don't have the time, with working 50-60 hours a week, and other commitments. Sometimes I'm not here for 30 hours, and the discussion has disppeared......

where did I run away? If I have time when I get home at 2:30 AM I might have a look again......
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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I understand perfectly what natural selection is.......you've underestimated my interest in, and my knowledge of such things.

Natural selection and intelligent design are not mutually exclusive...............

i've spent a lot of time reading on natural selection, the theory of evolution, big bang theories, etc. And I find it all highly intriguing. But, I have not reached the same conclusions as some based on the science behind it all. I think much along the same lines as you do Colpy, and not for lack of interest in science. I think science holds all the answers, even if scientists aren't willing to accept that there may be something more than they realize.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Don't usually run....but gotta go to work now :)

Which is often my problem. I just don't have the time, with working 50-60 hours a week, and other commitments. Sometimes I'm not here for 30 hours, and the discussion has disppeared......

where did I run away? If I have time when I get home at 2:30 AM I might have a look again......

We'll take you however we can get you Colpy...:)
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
2
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Voila! Beat the drum and hold the phone! karrie says:

" I think science holds all the answers, even if scientists aren't willing to accept that there may be something more than they realize."

Thank you, thank you , thank you!
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
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Voila! Beat the drum and hold the phone! karrie says:

" I think science holds all the answers, even if scientists aren't willing to accept that there may be something more than they realize."

Thank you, thank you , thank you!

I hadn't realized that feeling that science will one day find God would be so pleasing to you. But, well, enjoy!