What is freedom?

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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CDNBear asked me about what I view as freedom in another thread.

Here was my initial response:
bear,

Let me begin with two simple scenarios:

1 You have a pet cat, it was born in a house, raised and hand-fed in a house, it has never run outside the house. The cat would consider itself free to run about the house. Should you then impose a further limit (such as locking it into a room) the cat may well immediately cry to get out of the room, not because the room is not comfy but only because of the limitation of movement through the house.

2 You adopt a "wild" domestic cat. It is a cat that lived its entire life outside. It may show periods of contentment inside, but it consistantly displays a yearning to go outside.

Freedom is defined by parameters, either percieved or real. So long as you are the cat in scenario 1 where the limits on you are not so limiting as to impede what you have become habituated to see as being free, you will experience no internal conflict and see yourself as "free", ignoring or rationalizing the limits placed on you as irrelevent to "your freedom". "you are free to run about the house and that is all you want".

Watch carefully how people define their freedom not in terms of what they can and can not do, but moreso in terms of what they can and can not do compared to somebody else. You see somebody able to do something you can't, and you want it (a form of the scarity effect). You see somebody more constrained than yourself and you reinforce your belief of being free.

Look at the "average canadian", who earns less than 40K, is carrying a high mortgage, probably has enough savings to retain current setup for a few weeks if his/her job was lost, and objectively ask how free the individual is.

The question then became one of what is "true freedom"? (if there is one).

I will begin by saying freeom is a state of mind. Anything held onto (a thought, a material object, etc) has a limiting effect on what would be "true freedom".

Discuss.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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CDNBear asked me about what I view as freedom in another thread.

Here was my initial response:


The question then became one of what is "true freedom"? (if there is one).

I will begin by saying freeom is a state of mind. Anything held onto (a thought, a material object, etc) has a limiting effect on what would be "true freedom".

Discuss.
So if I see myself as free, but i enjoy what i do for a living, I like the house i live in, i'm willing to pay my mortgage, I don't mind paying accountants, I am pretty much content with my life, am I really. I always thought so, I like my life as it is. If I want what I want, then I need to get it by legal means. And I'm free to do so.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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so long as what you want is legally available.

This goes back to the "scope of knowledge". If a government or any other organization (like many organized religions have done in the past) prevents their people from knowing there is more, the people may well feel content and free within the "cage" they are kept in. Another important element to control through the illusion of freedom is providing knowledge (propaganda) about those outside your own cage that are kept in what is described as a "worse cage". One will be quite happy when they are led to believe "it could be worse", and not likely to ask for much more if they don't know "there is more".

The mastery of the "free world" is not in the freedom it grants, but in the fact rather than overtly having to control the masses (with the high costs and constant threats), it has made people in self-enslaving servants. This works so well because it taps into the nature of humanity.
 

china

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CDNBear ......,LIKE ?
_________________________________________________________________________________

'Llike"I realy don't know anything about freedom because , i don't know anything about my self ,free,enslaved , or otherwise . I think that freedom and self -knowledge are linked.Since I don't know my self and have no way of seeing my self, exept by the knowledge given me by my culture ,the question to be free doesn't arise at all .The knowledge you have about freedom denies the very possibility of freedom.When you stop looking at yourself with the knowledge that you have ,the demends to be free (from that self) drops away.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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china,

I suspect you will concur with the words of Osho:

"Your whole idea about yourself is borrowed--
borrowed from those who have no idea of who they are themselves."
 

china

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the caracal kid
I suspect you will concur with the words of Osho:
"Your whole idea about yourself is borrowed--
borrowed from those who have no idea of who they are themselves .
__________________________________

China :....Obviously as any human entity I have inherited Freedom .Freedom is "What Is":There is no such thing as being "free" from something . That "What Is" ,is at the begining of the human evolution , your creation,birth, whatever , not something you "earn" later on .But as I have stated in the above post ..."I don't know any thing about myself".
 
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tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
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Like?
Freedom is the ability to act on your impulses with only a modicum of impediment.
Freedom is that state where you can plan, and hope and dream and have the means and support to do something about them.
And on it goes...
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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A potpourrie of thoughts here - good topic to read and think on...

The author of the topic equated freedom with having familiar or limited physical boundaries in which we were forced to exist as an example.

Some equated freedom as having financial security and the loss of freedom equating to loss of comfort and stability.

Some found answers within one's mind and thought as the only true freedoms.

Freedom exists within us - even people in captivity and slavery have found freedom through their thoughts and dreams.

When we allow other thoughts to push away our dreams and hopes, we push away our personal freedom which exists dedicated in our minds under any conditions.

Only we ourselves can give freedom away.
 

china

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tamarin :Freedom is the ability to act on your impulses with only a modicum of impediment.
Freedom is that state where you can plan, and hope and dream and have the means and support to do something about them.
And on it goes____________________________________________________________________________

Freedom is not a reaction , freedom is not a choice. It is one's pretence that because he has choice, he is free. Freedom is pure observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward. Freedom is without motive, freedom is not at the end of the evolution of man but lies in the first step of his existence? Freedom is found in the awareness of one's daily existence and activity ,not in finding answers but in dissolution of all the questions.
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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CDNBear ......,LIKE ?
_________________________________________________________________________________

'Llike"I realy don't know anything about freedom because , i don't know anything about my self ,free,enslaved , or otherwise . I think that freedom and self -knowledge are linked.Since I don't know my self and have no way of seeing my self, exept by the knowledge given me by my culture ,the question to be free doesn't arise at all .The knowledge you have about freedom denies the very possibility of freedom.When you stop looking at yourself with the knowledge that you have ,the demends to be free (from that self) drops away.
How can one not know themselves?

I know who I am. I am me. I have the life experiences to deffine myself, I have, so therefore I am me.
 

The Project Man

Liquer'd Up & Lash'n Out!
Aug 22, 2006
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Truely free?

If everyone was turely free (mind, religion, body, & body of government) i see no need for want of anything. I do not see a devil may care attitude toward fellow man. To the contrary, everyone would have what they wanted out of life. More importantly I see a helping hand to those whom are not capable of helping themselves. Very Idealistict, but hey I still open car doors for dates.:D
 

china

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CDNBear How can one not know themselves?
: I know who I am. I am me. I have the life experiences to deffine myself, I have, so therefore I am me.__________________________________________________________________________________

Ofcourse you know "yourself" according to your thought ,your memory your ..." the life experiences which define myself".This is an image that you have created about yourself (ego).Obviously you have not created your real self : or the freedom for that matter.
 

humanbeing

Electoral Member
Jul 21, 2006
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the caracal kid said:
1 You have a pet cat, it was born in a house, raised and hand-fed in a house, it has never run outside the house. The cat would consider itself free to run about the house. Should you then impose a further limit (such as locking it into a room) the cat may well immediately cry to get out of the room, not because the room is not comfy but only because of the limitation of movement through the house.

2 You adopt a "wild" domestic cat. It is a cat that lived its entire life outside. It may show periods of contentment inside, but it consistantly displays a yearning to go outside.

Freedom is defined by parameters, either percieved or real. So long as you are the cat in scenario 1 where the limits on you are not so limiting as to impede what you have become habituated to see as being free, you will experience no internal conflict and see yourself as "free", ignoring or rationalizing the limits placed on you as irrelevent to "your freedom". "you are free to run about the house and that is all you want".

Watch carefully how people define their freedom not in terms of what they can and can not do, but moreso in terms of what they can and can not do compared to somebody else. You see somebody able to do something you can't, and you want it (a form of the scarity effect). You see somebody more constrained than yourself and you reinforce your belief of being free.

Look at the "average canadian", who earns less than 40K, is carrying a high mortgage, probably has enough savings to retain current setup for a few weeks if his/her job was lost, and objectively ask how free the individual is.

The question then became one of what is "true freedom"? (if there is one).

I will begin by saying freeom is a state of mind. Anything held onto (a thought, a material object, etc) has a limiting effect on what would be "true freedom".

Discuss.

I do agree with looking at freedom as more of a relative than an absolute concept. To me, it makes sense to view freedom in terms of what one "can and can not do, but moreso in terms of what they can and can not do compared to somebody else", simply because it seems to be a matter of society. After all, what is freedom supposed to mean to someone stranded a zillion miles from the rest of society? Sure he has the options open to do things that wouldn't normally be permitted around other people in a society, but I dunno what that is exactly. Doesn't seem like freedom, especially if you've experienced some of the good things that can come from society...

Keeping in mind things like wants and needs, and the 'freedom' to get away from that mortgage payment (which I assume the average canadian *willingly* takes because they want a home), it follows that some of the only ways to achieve that sort of freedom will be for everything to be free; or to simply not desire these things as individuals, perhaps by thinking a certain way or by eliminating the state of mind IF it just a state of mind, or by eliminating that element of our nature (when the technology to do so arises).

Anyways, to me, we need to see how much of it is just a state of mind, and how much of it is an inherent part of our nature.
 
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china

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To me, it makes sense to view freedom in terms of what one "can and can not do, but moreso in terms of what they can and can not do compared to somebody else", simply because it seems to be a matter of society. After all, what is freedom supposed to mean to someone stranded a zillion miles from the rest of society? Sure he has the options open to do things that wouldn't normally be permitted around other people in a society, but I dunno what that is actly._____________________________________________________

CHINA : Probably grow his own "pot".

Curiosity: Freedom exists within us - even people in captivity and slavery have found freedom through their thoughts and dreams

China ; They realized that nothing can "enslave " their personal freedom.

humanbeing :Doesn't seem like freedom, especially if you've experienced some of the good things that can come from society...

China : Name One ,and then phone Saddam Hussein to tell him all abut it ;He 'll be thrilled.
 
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