The nature of free will...
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RE: The nature of free wi
Nope, I believe in determinism. Now that I've said that dexter sinister is going to come here and tell me I'm wrong :wink: But even so, do we really have control of what is going on at the level where determinism breaks down? I doubt it.
Nope, I believe in determinism. Now that I've said that dexter sinister is going to come here and tell me I'm wrong :wink: But even so, do we really have control of what is going on at the level where determinism breaks down? I doubt it.
Re: RE: The nature of free wi
And that's without the additional complications brought on by postulating an omnipotent, omniscient deity as the uncaused First Cause.
It does appear that there's a fundamental indeterminacy at the core of how things work in this universe though. Quantum theory does not support a strict cause and effect view, things happen at the quantum level apparently without cause. How that might translate into free will at the level of a macro assemblage of quantum particles like the brain is far from clear. Quantum effects reliably and completely disappear at that scale. Maybe some quantum process in the brain is where new ideas come from and free will consists of choosing what to do about them? I dunno, but that seems as good a guess as any other I've ever heard.
Personally though, I think the question is currently unresolvable.
Well, no actually, I won't, not on this subject. Far better minds than mine have grappled with this one for centuries without, as far as I can tell, any useful resolution. Any position you take on it is fraught with paradox and inconsistency. For instance, if the universe is rational it must be based on sequences of causes and effects and there must be an unbroken chain of them going right back to the beginning 13.7 billion years ago, clearly implying that everything that's ever happened was implicit and preordained at the Big Bang (terrible name for it, but never mind). An act of free will must logically be outside that chain of cause and effect. It is a cause, not an effect, and has no cause itself, which negates any claim you'd care to make about the rationality and order of the universe. But any system of ethics must imply free will. If you have no real power to choose, there's no possibility of making moral judgements, it's out of your hands and nobody can be held responsible for anything. I don't see any way out of this.gc said:
And that's without the additional complications brought on by postulating an omnipotent, omniscient deity as the uncaused First Cause.
It does appear that there's a fundamental indeterminacy at the core of how things work in this universe though. Quantum theory does not support a strict cause and effect view, things happen at the quantum level apparently without cause. How that might translate into free will at the level of a macro assemblage of quantum particles like the brain is far from clear. Quantum effects reliably and completely disappear at that scale. Maybe some quantum process in the brain is where new ideas come from and free will consists of choosing what to do about them? I dunno, but that seems as good a guess as any other I've ever heard.
Personally though, I think the question is currently unresolvable.
Re: RE: The nature of free wi
This appears to me as being the best way to explain how some form of free will could be possible... But as you say, how can we know... It's such a tough question to answer...
One thing is sure for me, it's useless to believe I am not free... I certainly appear to have the power to choose, so my life will be a lot more meaningful if I go along with the idea of free will... It pushes me to go beyond my determinisms and become a true free individual... But that's no reason to invade the freedom of others...
Dexter Sinister said:
This appears to me as being the best way to explain how some form of free will could be possible... But as you say, how can we know... It's such a tough question to answer...
One thing is sure for me, it's useless to believe I am not free... I certainly appear to have the power to choose, so my life will be a lot more meaningful if I go along with the idea of free will... It pushes me to go beyond my determinisms and become a true free individual... But that's no reason to invade the freedom of others...
Is it afree will ,that I want a coffe with cream or sugar ,or different variations of the same variant.
Because we are born into dependency....
.... we develop needs from the moment we are thrust into the world as independent creatures, hopefully functioning at 100% for present in our
life.
Therefore from the first breath - we have to learn survival and repetitious
behaviour such as nourishment and bodily functions and all the skills we
require to continue the work and sustenance and purpose of life.
It is my conclusion therefore, we are not born "free" - even intellectually we are a receptacle of all our learning for the first years taught by others, then a model of reactive learning as we progress through understanding...into decision making but for logical reasons and again for survival....necessitated again by survival in our world....
....there is no such thing as "free will" except its comforting purpose of making us feel we are in control.
That which has kept us motivated through our life when we finally reach the knowledge that it is too late - that we have never experienced "free will" ....is when death gives us the final answer.
.... we develop needs from the moment we are thrust into the world as independent creatures, hopefully functioning at 100% for present in our
life.
Therefore from the first breath - we have to learn survival and repetitious
behaviour such as nourishment and bodily functions and all the skills we
require to continue the work and sustenance and purpose of life.
It is my conclusion therefore, we are not born "free" - even intellectually we are a receptacle of all our learning for the first years taught by others, then a model of reactive learning as we progress through understanding...into decision making but for logical reasons and again for survival....necessitated again by survival in our world....
....there is no such thing as "free will" except its comforting purpose of making us feel we are in control.
That which has kept us motivated through our life when we finally reach the knowledge that it is too late - that we have never experienced "free will" ....is when death gives us the final answer.
Free will implies we are neither a product of our
environment, or a product of our social and genetic
heritage.
We are, and we aren't.
Some break free.
environment, or a product of our social and genetic
heritage.
We are, and we aren't.
Some break free.
I neither believe nor disbelieve in free will, I don't have the information or the concepts to ultimately resolve the question and I don't think anyone else does either. It does seem to me, though, that if we don't actually have free will, we can at least have a pretty convincing illusion of having it, but that may be only because in all the chaotic complexity of reality we can't possibly grasp all the influences that act on us. It may be just a function of incomplete information. It also seems to me that the most ethical thing to do is to behave as if we have free will, but that's a different subject.
...seems to me that the most ethical thing to do is to behave as if we have free will...
------------------------Dexter Sinister-------------------------
Excellent point.
In fact that just may well be the most useful
observation any one could have on this matter.
------------------------Dexter Sinister-------------------------
Excellent point.
In fact that just may well be the most useful
observation any one could have on this matter.
Can the highest forms of art be possible without free will?
Could the great cathedrals of the Middle-Ages have been built without any form of free will?... If one says that free will is not possible, then one must assume it is in the nature of the universe to have cathedrals, symphonies and beautiful paintings... In the same way it is in the nature of the universe to have stars and planets....
Could the great cathedrals of the Middle-Ages have been built without any form of free will?... If one says that free will is not possible, then one must assume it is in the nature of the universe to have cathedrals, symphonies and beautiful paintings... In the same way it is in the nature of the universe to have stars and planets....
most of those cathedrals were constructed under serfdom. those people built the cathedrals because they needed the money, same as people clean toilets now
We are all mere collections of chemical reactions creating outcomes that are determined by the physical forces around us. Having self determination means only that sometimes certain chemical reactions and interactions preempt others leading to different outcomes.
So, in summary, no, I am not responsible for any of my actions.
So, in summary, no, I am not responsible for any of my actions.