How conscious are you?

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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Do you consider yourself more conscious than an average 7-year old kid?

Are you more conscious than a tree?

Are you more conscious than the universe itself?

If the universe is not conscious and you are conscious how do you explain it? How can a part of an unconscious whole be conscious?
 

Dexter Sinister

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s_lone said:
Do you consider yourself more conscious than an average 7-year old kid?

Are you more conscious than a tree?

Are you more conscious than the universe itself?

If the universe is not conscious and you are conscious how do you explain it? How can a part of an unconscious whole be conscious?

You're going to have to specify what you think "conscious" means before I'll try an answer to any of those. Your final two questions suggest your view of it is quite different from mine. And if not that, then your understanding of *something* in here is quite different from mine.
 

#juan

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It could be, that being conscious is an illusion. As thinking, feeling, beings, we are aware of a myriad of various stimuli. Is this consciousness?
 

s_lone

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Dexter Sinister said:
s_lone said:
Do you consider yourself more conscious than an average 7-year old kid?

Are you more conscious than a tree?

Are you more conscious than the universe itself?

If the universe is not conscious and you are conscious how do you explain it? How can a part of an unconscious whole be conscious?

You're going to have to specify what you think "conscious" means before I'll try an answer to any of those. Your final two questions suggest your view of it is quite different from mine. And if not that, then your understanding of *something* in here is quite different from mine.

You got me there... it's very tough to specify what I think consciousness means because this is precisely what I am reflecting on through the questions I asked.

How about using this definition from Wikipedia to start:

Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment.

With that definition, I would tend to say that I am at least slightly more conscious than a 7 year old because of my experience and wisdom (sapience); I seem to have a better understanding of my relationship to the rest of the world; my senses are more developped (sentience) or I use them more efficiently). I guess I'm more self-aware...(?). But then, maybe the child would beat me in terms of subjectivity...

How about the tree?

-Does the tree have subjectivity? umm... I don't know. Is the tree objective? or neither?
-Is the tree self-aware? I don't know... In a sense yes... The tree reacts to its environment so there is certain boundary between itself and the environment... but then, ANYTHING reacts to its environment...
-Does the tree possess sentience? I would say yes... but a very different type than ours...
-Does the tree possess sapience? Does the tree act with judgment? We could say no, but then a tree usually does what is best for itself... while a human often does not!
-Can the tree perceive its relationship to the environment? I don't know, but it sure does a fine job coexisting peacefully with it...

I'll stop at the tree for now...
 

Dexter Sinister

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Okay, fair enough, that seems to me to be an honest answer to a very hard question I don't really have a definitive answer for either, and judging from your other posts I've read you appear to be a decent person who means well that I can both respect and disagree with, so I'll try to answer your original questions.

Am I more conscious than a 7-year old? Yes. I'm 50 years older than that; experience must count for something.

Am I more conscious than a tree? Yes again. Vegetation is not conscious at all in any sense that I understand the term.

Am I more conscious than the universe itself? Same answer: the universe is not conscious, as far as I know.

How can part of an unconscious whole be conscious? The heart of the matter. I am, I believe, conscious, which to me means I am aware of both myself and a larger world outside myself that I'm part of. I don't, however, see that there's any necessary connection between my consciousness and a requirement that the cosmos as a whole be conscious. The cosmos is not me, and I am not the cosmos. The characteristics of part of something need not be characteristic of the thing as a whole, and to assume otherwise is a common logical error called the fallacy of composition.

Good questions though; you provoked several hours of interesting thought.
 

gc

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May 9, 2006
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RE: How conscious are you

Here's another question: What is it that makes us conscious? Why are Humans & animals conscious, but plants and inanimate objects not conscious? Where is the line drawn? And by "conscious" I am using my definition of the word, which is basically the ability to realize that I exist. In other words, I know I am a human, but a car does not know that it's a car...I don't think.

If you can answer that question, it will be a lot easier to answer the original question.
 

s_lone

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Dexter Sinister said:
How can part of an unconscious whole be conscious? The heart of the matter. I am, I believe, conscious, which to me means I am aware of both myself and a larger world outside myself that I'm part of. I don't, however, see that there's any necessary connection between my consciousness and a requirement that the cosmos as a whole be conscious. The cosmos is not me, and I am not the cosmos. The characteristics of part of something need not be characteristic of the thing as a whole, and to assume otherwise is a common logical error called the fallacy of composition.

Yeah... I understand how my reasoning can be a logical fallacy... I thought about it a bit and it's true that part of a whole can have characteristics that the whole has not... It still tickles my mind though...

We consider ourselves as being conscious as individuals but we often speak of the collective psyche. We sometimes use the term "collective unconscious" and sometimes "collective consciousness"...

Take the Renaissance period for example, we tend to view this historical period as a time where there was a rise in "global consciousness"... Same thing for the 18th century which in French we call "Le siècle des lumières"... The rise of rationalism and science seemed to illuminate what we call "global consciousness". Learning once and for all that the Earth was round and that it turned around the sun was quite a big deal... It was a major shift in "global consciousness"...

Is the term "global consciousness" legitimate? Can consciousness only be found in individuals?

I am conscious only because it is possible for me, as a human to be conscious. It is my humanity that makes me conscious because consciousness seems to be a potential quality of humanity. So is humanity conscious? (Is this another logical fallacy?)

As for the universe, maybe it is not conscious... But obviously, it is in the nature of the universe to permit the existence of consciousness...
 

s_lone

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Re: RE: How conscious are you

gc said:
Here's another question: What is it that makes us conscious? Why are Humans & animals conscious, but plants and inanimate objects not conscious? Where is the line drawn? And by "conscious" I am using my definition of the word, which is basically the ability to realize that I exist. In other words, I know I am a human, but a car does not know that it's a car...I don't think.

If you can answer that question, it will be a lot easier to answer the original question.

If consciousness only means "to realize one's own existence", it is indeed very hard to draw a line between an unconscious and conscious being. Compared to a human, a dog isn't very conscious... But compared to a fish, it certainly is...

Perhaps there is no such thing as unconsciousness but only varying degrees of consciousness?
 

Dexter Sinister

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s_lone said:
It still tickles my mind though...
And isn't that what it's all about? One of the most important things we can do for each other is to make ourselves stop and think about stuff we haven't thought about before. There is much I don't agree with you about, but you have the great virtue of making me stop and think about why I think what I think. It's people like you who keep me coming back here.
 

s_lone

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Dexter Sinister said:
s_lone said:
It still tickles my mind though...
And isn't that what it's all about? One of the most important things we can do for each other is to make ourselves stop and think about stuff we haven't thought about before. There is much I don't agree with you about, but you have the great virtue of making me stop and think about why I think what I think. It's people like you who keep me coming back here.

Same here Dexter... It's always good to have a critical and solid mind like yours sharpen and would I say, purify, our perspective.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Re: RE: How conscious are you

gc said:
Here's another question: What is it that makes us conscious? Why are Humans & animals conscious, but plants and inanimate objects not conscious? Where is the line drawn?
Another hard and intelligent question I don't have a definitive answer for, but wish I did. But I would respond first that the only animals we know are conscious are humans; we don't know about any other critters. There is some powerfully suggestive evidence that chimpanzees are also conscious in a way similar to how humans understand the term, but there's a continuum here of critters that might be conscious in varying degrees. Humans are fully conscious, for instance (of course we are, we get to define the terms), while mice probably are not in any sense we'd accept, but somewhere in between people and mice is a threshold. If we accept that we are conscious and mice are not, we must also accept that there are a whole lot of critters smarter than mice and dumber than us and some of them might be consious in the way I defined the term above.

So, granting that we're conscious and mice aren't, how about deer? Wolves? Rabbits? There's no obvious place to draw the line. I've encountered all three critters in the wild many times, and it was perfectly clear they had some form of consiousness, in that they all clearly knew I was some kind of potential threat and they were deeply wary of me, until they'd seen me enough times to know I wasn't intending to harm them. In other words, they learned, Doesn't that suggest consciousness?

I don't know. Somehow deer can learn that I personally am not a threat to them but they can't figure out that vehicles on a paved road, a bit of environment you'd think they could easily learn to recognize, are a serious danger to them.

I must be missing something.
 

Jay

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Please Dex take this as a compliment...your the most intelligent person I've ever met/seen pour his heart and soul out on-line to share and educate others. No holds bared.

What kind of Scotch do you drink?


I must be missing something.


We all are but I have learned much from you.

You are as clean as they come (real dirt) and I recommend you for the Order of Canada. (as far as CanCon is concerned anyways.)

Let me ask you “are you a dying breed”? Has the layman taken over this world or are we still on top?

God Bless.
 

Curiosity

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Conscious

My dictionary definition:
1. Using one's mental powers; capable of thought, will or perception: Man is a conscious being.

2. Able to perceive and understand what is happening: He is badly injured but still conscious.

3. Having or showing self-consciousness: aware: He is conscious of his shortcomings.

4. Done with awareness; intentional; deliberate: A conscious insult; makes a conscious effort to speak more distinctly.

Which in the case of number 1 - we derive our human trait of Conscience (or rules) - whether employed or not in our business of being alive and the natal will to survive - even at the expense of others.

Humans seem to have evolved in the conscience department however in that we also include care of others - which is a higher state of being conscious (I believe). Yet, we still kill each other.

Your statement of humans' awareness of other inhabitants of our planet in the animal kingdom leads me to believe mankind is aware through learning and history of co-existence, to be conscious of those living creatures which may end his survival or those which may serve him in tasks to better his own existence, or for some fortunate inhabitants- entertain him.
 

jimmoyer

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Hypnagoic state.

That's similar to that moment when you are slowly
waking up and become consciously aware you are
still dreaming.

Now that's the simulateaneous existence of
subconcious and conscious, a nexus most interesting
and later asserted by Jung that we are doing
dreaming all the time without the REM.
 

Curiosity

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Jim

More revelatory about Jung than us! :wink:

I admit having arrived at work in my car with no recollection of driving the short distance... not the state you describe but it happens to many people who perform rote tasks - their mind zones off into other directions.

Hopefully they are not working at something dangerous.
 

WilliamAshley

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RE: How conscious are you

What scale of conciousness?

Where does a 7 year old kid plot on the scale?
Where does a tree plot on the scale?

Am I not the effect of the Universe, am I not it's manifestation, it's agent, and conciousness?



If the universe is not conscious and I am conscious, then conciousness exists at my point of self definition and not at the point of the Universes definition from self.

A part of an unconscious whole can be conscious when the part that is concious exhibits concious behaviors and not unconcious behaviors; while, the unconcious part exhibits unconcious behaviors and not concious behaviors.




"It could be, that being conscious is an illusion. As thinking, feeling, beings, we are aware of a myriad of various stimuli. Is this consciousness?"

I'm fairly certain I am concious, afteral I am typing this.
Generally conciousness is a sense of self control, more effectively, conciousness is a point of self reflection to which the individual is empowered to be a singularity, i.e. a person or point of presence of omni faith. Science may alter this to "a type of brain activity"

Trees are an idenity ~ meaning that like another object outside of the centric corpus idem they exist independantly. Trees however are see scientifically as an organism that generally does not have a central nervous system therefore does not have neuronal interchange or in that sense a personality, they are logical in that within a basic level they grow towards light and based upon their chemical make up they will exhibit the same qualities every time. This of course is 'true" scientifically for all biochemical creatures including humans, however the inherent complexity of behaviors and the tracking of "mnemonic" growth creates more of an abstract sense to "conciousness" as not necisarily seen wholely at the chemical level, but rather at a number of factors on a smaller scale including electronal, neural firings, and neural electronal storm in effect with biomatter and brain chemistry, in effect of nervious system messages to various organs. Of course science is not the begining or the end all, and there are a number of alternate less psychotic and ultraempirical idenities towards "existance and reality" such as spirtualism, and faith centered modalities that rest at placing "a mental plane" beyond the physical and logical planes. That is the logical plane emerges from the occult while the physical plane emerges from the logical plane. You see it occur in polytheistic cultures on some occassions, through concepts of DIETY as being centric to an object identity. Thus we are subject to the OBJECT or DIETIES we interact with. Thus we as the centric "neutral" force, take on a being of the avatars that have came into existance for us, and those that we 'worship' or keep affinity to in our "place" of interaction with those dieties show our OWN place in the overal pantheon or interaction of the dieties. Thus in that sense we are a god or demigod of sorts, however in full awareness we as existing are in whole with "the god" of all gods, that being that beyond our own perception, where we truely exist al. Ultimately we are one and an effect of communication of that god. In effect we are a focal point of awareness of that god, and in that sense are a manifest destiny of that god. Therefore the True god is the only truely concious entity, as it exists only when there is a point of existance however not necisarily at a logical or physical layer but an existential modality that encapsulates the true inherent purpose meaning and being of god.

In some cultures trees are nature spirits, this includes some native cultures. Oddly the native americans, and the bible in a way sort of as well the Norse all have a type of tree of knowledge. So perhaps trees truely do communicate knowledge to us, and give us life.

"What is it that makes us conscious? "

I think that a centric modality makes us concious, that is when we know we exist and are able to recognize that existance as being capable of self "relization" we are concious. Sentient may be more of a capacity to interact with the environment independantly.

"Why are Humans & animals conscious, but plants and inanimate objects not conscious? " I don't so much agree with that statement, I think that everything has a spirit and lifeforce that gives it a level of awareness on the spiritual plane. Physicality reduces to Stimulus Response and at that point physically nothing acts independantly but as an effect of a field of interaction based on a set of physical laws based upon assume static environmental interaction. I think that people are fooled into seperating plants and animals based upon affinity and mobility. That is plants don't make noises or move that much, especially the concept of being stationary, i.e. vegetables, vegetated. While animals have a assume aural and motion based actions. Younger humans may be more attracted to noise and movement or two strong sense sight and hearing. Touch is not utilized as much notisably as a means of communication, while smell may be a more subconcious interaction unless "strong". Simply our senses for animals and humans sight and hearing are more active so chances are they are classed based upon mobility and affinity of "goal centered" communication.


"Concious = ability to realize that I exist"
Using that definition it reduces to ethics, the benifit of the doubt is given to all things as being "existant, and potentially self aware" We treat things based upon our understanding of them and the application in goal oreintation over the whole of the interactions effect. That is things that we see connect to other things work in potential systems. Through practice we create systemologies for potential occurance, and most heavily weighed is what is our strongest emotional leaning to future judgement of our intended interaction. That is where the neural storm is in effect at guiding the physical and mnemonic action. "That creates emotion" from chemical physical trancendance, where our "existance" qualifies it as experience, everythign is "Energy" scientifically regardless. It has to be measured somehow.
Spiritually however, we are in divine correspondence in not the "effect" of where we are, but a state of what we are. Temporality and Logic can not properly explain a all state.

I think what you are hitting on is the idea of item casting. Or creation of the "meaning" of objects. That is largely media. Ultimately there are modes of thought "knowing through experience in belief, innately exiperienced through our "physical state", spirtual knowing, this is an acceptance of "god beyond the lesser planes" as being the inspiring force in creating "interpretation" There are many factors scientifically from cosmic rays to cell degredation to magnetic feilds etc.. that effect the way we perceive an otherwise static environment. It is all signals in that sense. However we are not "only receiving signals, as an energy force, we can interact with the energy around us, to create our interpretation of that energy. We also exist the capacity to change our mnemonic, this could get stuck in the modality of automatism and stimulus response, however in faith we are "with god" and beyond the confines of stimulus response.
 

Curiosity

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Excellent William Ashley!

That'll keep us busy! :wink:

Often to define something internally one should also explore the opposite to reveal perhaps more of the topic to consider from another perspective.

I stole this from the internet...
http://skepdic.com/unconscious.html
The Unconscious Mind