Do we need this language law?

I'm a resident of Ontario and I would

  • suport the law proposed here, or some similar law.

    Votes: 3 50.0%
  • oppose this or any similar law.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other answer

    Votes: 3 50.0%

  • Total voters
    6

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Would you agree to the following law for the Province of Ontario?

1. An elementary or secondary school may compel a pupil who is born on or after the second 1 January from the day this law is passed to learn a second language only if the school has proven itself capable of ensuring that the pupil has a reasonable chance to succeed in learning the language well enough to use it in a trade or profession by the time he completes his compulsory education. This includes being able to search for, find, read, and understand advertisements for the trade or profession, write a cover letter and a resume in response to an ad, sit and pass an interview, and perform the tasks necessary to the trade or profession, all in the second language. The school has the duty to collect the necessary data to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it can fulfil this requirement before it may compel a pupil to learn a second language.




According to Statscan in 2006(Population by knowledge of official language, by province and territory (2006 Census)), 12,028,895 people reside in Ontario, with 10,335,705 knowing English but not French. This would mean that about 86% of Ontarians know English but not French. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that French was compulsory in all elementary and secondary schools across Ontario. If that's the case, then we could asume that 100% of Ontario residents have studied English, so we can count their lack of knowledge of French as a failure to learn it. This woud mean an 86% failure rate, or a 14% rate of success. Add to this that this census is based on self assessment and not on any objective language test.

Now to be fair, some of these Ontarians might not have finished their compulsory educaion, or others might have completed their secondary school abroad. But even if we tripled this rate of success just to be kind, we'd still have a rate of success below a simple majority, at 42%! This would still be a dismal rate of success.

I'm sure most people would agree that a second language is useful only if we can learn it well, otherwise it's a waste of money. I believe this law would improve educaiton by either ensuring that if a school cannot guarantee within reason that a pupil will succeed, they can't force him to learn his second languge; and if they want to force him to learn it, then they must ensure he succeed. Either way would be an improvement, but no more wasting children's time.

What are your thoughts on this?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
And by the way, for those of you who think this is just some franco-phobic rant, Je suis francophone moi meme, et je suis certainement pret a debatre ce point en francais aussi. Ce n'est qu'une question d'investissement efficace de temp et d'argent dans nos ecoles.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this issue in either French or English. And before anyone accuses me of double standards, I'b be all in favour of a similar law for Quebec, where statistics indicate that they're experiencing an equally miserable rate of success in English.

And before you point to Europe as some kind of model for bilingualism, statistics there are worse, with only about 6% of Western Europeans able to fuction fully in English, according to a 2001 poll.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
Would you agree to the following law for the Province of Ontario?

1. An elementary or secondary school may compel a pupil who is born on or after the second 1 January from the day this law is passed to learn a second language only if the school has proven itself capable of ensuring that the pupil has a reasonable chance to succeed in learning the language well enough to use it in a trade or profession by the time he completes his compulsory education. This includes being able to search for, find, read, and understand advertisements for the trade or profession, write a cover letter and a resume in response to an ad, sit and pass an interview, and perform the tasks necessary to the trade or profession, all in the second language. The school has the duty to collect the necessary data to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it can fulfil this requirement before it may compel a pupil to learn a second language.




According to Statscan in 2006(Population by knowledge of official language, by province and territory (2006 Census)), 12,028,895 people reside in Ontario, with 10,335,705 knowing English but not French. This would mean that about 86% of Ontarians know English but not French. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that French was compulsory in all elementary and secondary schools across Ontario. If that's the case, then we could asume that 100% of Ontario residents have studied English, so we can count their lack of knowledge of French as a failure to learn it. This woud mean an 86% failure rate, or a 14% rate of success. Add to this that this census is based on self assessment and not on any objective language test.

Now to be fair, some of these Ontarians might not have finished their compulsory educaion, or others might have completed their secondary school abroad. But even if we tripled this rate of success just to be kind, we'd still have a rate of success below a simple majority, at 42%! This would still be a dismal rate of success.

I'm sure most people would agree that a second language is useful only if we can learn it well, otherwise it's a waste of money. I believe this law would improve educaiton by either ensuring that if a school cannot guarantee within reason that a pupil will succeed, they can't force him to learn his second languge; and if they want to force him to learn it, then they must ensure he succeed. Either way would be an improvement, but no more wasting children's time.

What are your thoughts on this?

Today a second language should not be choice but mandatory.
It will make your working life more successful and allow you to communicate with others that you would not normally communicate with.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
And by the way, for those of you who think this is just some franco-phobic rant, Je suis francophone moi meme, et je suis certainement pret a debatre ce point en francais aussi. Ce n'est qu'une question d'investissement efficace de temp et d'argent dans nos ecoles.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this issue in either French or English. And before anyone accuses me of double standards, I'b be all in favour of a similar law for Quebec, where statistics indicate that they're experiencing an equally miserable rate of success in English.

And before you point to Europe as some kind of model for bilingualism, statistics there are worse, with only about 6% of Western Europeans able to fuction fully in English, according to a 2001 poll.

It will never happen in Quebec. Ever.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I agree. But what's the point of making French compulsory unless the school can guarantee a decent rate of success. A law such as this would put pressure on schools to do something to improve the rate of success, would it not?
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
As far as Europe is concerned English is the most spoken and the most desired to be spoken second language. France french has become so inundated with english it is sad.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
We must make a distinction between learning and succeeding. In Quebec, 100% of the pupulation that was born in Quebec and never left the province has studied English, but that doesn't mean that if you go to Roberval today or Charlevoix tomorrow that many people there will be able to chat with you in English without extreme difficulty, and that's just for the most mondane conversation.

Same in Europe. According to one advertising agency, only 6% of Western Europeans have a real knowledge of English. Sure in France over 90% learn English, and in Italy over 80%, and in Germany almost everyone. But waht counts is not how many people are learning the language, but how many succeed in learning it.

In Ontario, to the best of my knowledge, everyone learns French. But good luck getting around in French in Kitchener.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
It will never happen in Quebec. Ever.

Ever is a long time, but if you mean in the foreseeable future, I might agree with you. I was not saying this because I beleive Quebec would go for this, but merely to point out that while I'm in favour of not making French compulsory in Ontario, I'm not folowing the double standard of expecting French speakers across Quebec to learn English. I do believe that what applies to one applies to all.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Or just to take a more concrete example, Scratch. Have you ever studied French? Has it proven useful to you? Maybe, maybe not. But either way, it could give you some idea of the rate of success across Ontario.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
Machjo,

I was raised and educated in Quebec, inthe English system and the teaching of French was paramount. I lived ans worked there in both languages for almost 40 years.
So what French do you speak: joele, regular or High Speech.

Laisse-moi savoir.
Salut,
scratch
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Machjo,

I was raised and educated in Quebec, inthe English system and the teaching of French was paramount. I lived ans worked there in both languages for almost 40 years.
So what French do you speak: joele, regular or High Speech.

Laisse-moi savoir.
Salut,
scratch

C'est bon, Scratch. Je ne vais pas perdre mon temp avec les accents sur ce forum. Pardon, mais j'aime tapper vite.

Comme tu doit bien le savoir, a Montreal presque toute la population est bilingue, donc c'est un environnement ideal pour apprendre le francais et l'anglais.

A tu deja visite Robervalle ou Charlevoix?

Fait juste regarder les statisticques de 2006. La pluspart d'est quebecois ne sont pas capable de parler en anglais. Et de meme en Ontario en ce qui concerne le francais. Comparer Montreal a d'autres parties du Canada, ca ne se fait pas dans ce cas-ci.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Now Scratch. If the school can guarantee a decent rate of success, then by all means, I fully agree that it compel its pupils to learn a second language. And this will often be the case with students in an English-medium school in Montreal or a French-medium school in Ontario.

But this does not automatically apply to a French-medium school in Quebec city or an English-medium school in Edmonton, or even Ottawa for that matter. Even in Ottawa the majority populaiotn appears to have failed to have learnt English. I'll try to find the statistics on that one.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
Just as an addition. Where I live now, about 25 miles from Quebec in Ontario, the town that I live in is about a 60% French/40% English split. More often than not you are addressed in French, most flyers are 100% French and as far as signing goes, French only signs out-number English ones by 3 to 1.
So what has changed for me nothing.

One thing though we are close enough to Cornwall to have people passing through from the New England states and Ohio and if they are detected by store owners they are strictly served in French and American money is scoffed at.

Do I live in an extension of `mon pays bleu`? You bet.

regs,
scratch
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
OK. Here are the statistics for Ottawa-Gatineau:

Population: 1,117,120
English only: 507,175
French only: 102,375
English and French: 496,025
Neitehr: 11,540

So if people are failing to learn their second language in such large numbers even right on the frigging Ontario-Quebec border, I thin it's a clear indication of just how difficult English and French are to learn for the general population.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
We have too many laws in this stupid country. what is the goal of them all? What is the underlining message? When will it stop? What is the goal? We are already totalitarian but now the national discourse is on how totalitarian we want to be and how quickly we want to get there - that is the elephant in the room.

f**k more laws. What we need is fewer damn politicians telling us how to live!
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
We have too many laws in this stupid country. what is the goal of them all? What is the underlining message? When will it stop? What is the goal? We are already totalitarian but now the national discourse is on how totalitarian we want to be and how quickly we want to get there - that is the elephant in the room.

f**k more laws. What we need is fewer damn politicians telling us how to live!

You obviously haven't read the law proposed otherwise you'd be supporting it. Essentially, it would ban probably most schools from making a second language compulsory. This could potentially translate into freedom from a second language for alot of students. By the sound of it, you'd be in favour of less freedom. Did you even bother to read the law being proposed?
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
We have too many laws in this stupid country. what is the goal of them all? What is the underlining message? When will it stop? What is the goal? We are already totalitarian but now the national discourse is on how totalitarian we want to be and how quickly we want to get there - that is the elephant in the room.

f**k more laws. What we need is fewer damn politicians telling us how to live!

No, we have too many stupids who don't appreciate the great country they live in. Totalitarian? You don't know what the word means.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
We need fewer damn laws not more. Just abolish whatever law requires students to learn French.

Unfortunately, I doubt many people would go with that. Then again, maybe few would even go with what I'm proposing too. But I figure that might have more of a chance that just getting rid of French altogether.

I could be wrong too of course. Just brainstorming ideas.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
And by the way, for those of you who think this is just some franco-phobic rant, Je suis francophone moi meme, et je suis certainement pret a debatre ce point en francais aussi. Ce n'est qu'une question d'investissement efficace de temp et d'argent dans nos ecoles.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this issue in either French or English. And before anyone accuses me of double standards, I'b be all in favour of a similar law for Quebec, where statistics indicate that they're experiencing an equally miserable rate of success in English.

And before you point to Europe as some kind of model for bilingualism, statistics there are worse, with only about 6% of Western Europeans able to fuction fully in English, according to a 2001 poll.

That's french, right, haha if you let them push this down your throat soon they'll force you to learn math it's just a matter of time. I wish they'd forced me to learn something. Bad french or english or german is better than none , isn't it?