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Do we need this language law?

  • Do we need this language law?

View Poll Results: I'm a resident of Ontario and I would
suport the law proposed here, or some similar law. 3 50.00%
oppose this or any similar law. 0 0%
Other answer 3 50.00%
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll

Machjo
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#1Nov 18th, 2008
Would you agree to the following law for the Province of Ontario?

1. An elementary or secondary school may compel a pupil who is born on or after the second 1 January from the day this law is passed to learn a second language only if the school has proven itself capable of ensuring that the pupil has a reasonable chance to succeed in learning the language well enough to use it in a trade or profession by the time he completes his compulsory education. This includes being able to search for, find, read, and understand advertisements for the trade or profession, write a cover letter and a resume in response to an ad, sit and pass an interview, and perform the tasks necessary to the trade or profession, all in the second language. The school has the duty to collect the necessary data to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it can fulfil this requirement before it may compel a pupil to learn a second language.




According to Statscan in 2006(--), 12,028,895 people reside in Ontario, with 10,335,705 knowing English but not French. This would mean that about 86% of Ontarians know English but not French. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that French was compulsory in all elementary and secondary schools across Ontario. If that's the case, then we could asume that 100% of Ontario residents have studied English, so we can count their lack of knowledge of French as a failure to learn it. This woud mean an 86% failure rate, or a 14% rate of success. Add to this that this census is based on self assessment and not on any objective language test.

Now to be fair, some of these Ontarians might not have finished their compulsory educaion, or others might have completed their secondary school abroad. But even if we tripled this rate of success just to be kind, we'd still have a rate of success below a simple majority, at 42%! This would still be a dismal rate of success.

I'm sure most people would agree that a second language is useful only if we can learn it well, otherwise it's a waste of money. I believe this law would improve educaiton by either ensuring that if a school cannot guarantee within reason that a pupil will succeed, they can't force him to learn his second languge; and if they want to force him to learn it, then they must ensure he succeed. Either way would be an improvement, but no more wasting children's time.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
Machjo
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#2

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
And by the way, for those of you who think this is just some franco-phobic rant, Je suis francophone moi meme, et je suis certainement pret a debatre ce point en francais aussi. Ce n'est qu'une question d'investissement efficace de temp et d'argent dans nos ecoles.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this issue in either French or English. And before anyone accuses me of double standards, I'b be all in favour of a similar law for Quebec, where statistics indicate that they're experiencing an equally miserable rate of success in English.

And before you point to Europe as some kind of model for bilingualism, statistics there are worse, with only about 6% of Western Europeans able to fuction fully in English, according to a 2001 poll.
 
scratch
#3

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

Would you agree to the following law for the Province of Ontario?
1. An elementary or secondary school may compel a pupil who is born on or after the second 1 January from the day this law is passed to learn a second language only if the school has proven itself capable of ensuring that the pupil has a reasonable chance to succeed in learning the language well enough to use it in a trade or profession by the time he completes his compulsory education. This includes being able to search for, find, read, and understand advertisements for the trade or profession, write a cover letter and a resume in response to an ad, sit and pass an interview, and perform the tasks necessary to the trade or profession, all in the second language. The school has the duty to collect the necessary data to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it can fulfil this requirement before it may compel a pupil to learn a second language.
According to Statscan in 2006(Population by knowledge of official language, by province and territory (2006 Census)), 12,028,895 people reside in Ontario, with 10,335,705 knowing English but not French. This would mean that about 86% of Ontarians know English but not French. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that French was compulsory in all elementary and secondary schools across...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Today a second language should not be choice but mandatory.
It will make your working life more successful and allow you to communicate with others that you would not normally communicate with.
 
scratch
#4

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

And by the way, for those of you who think this is just some franco-phobic rant, Je suis francophone moi meme, et je suis certainement pret a debatre ce point en francais aussi. Ce n'est qu'une question d'investissement efficace de temp et d'argent dans nos ecoles.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this issue in either French or English. And before anyone accuses me of double standards, I'b be all in favour of a similar law for Quebec, where statistics indicate that they're experiencing an equally miserable rate of success in English.

And before you point to Europe as some kind of model for bilingualism, statistics there are worse, with only about 6% of Western Europeans able to fuction fully in English, according to a 2001 poll.

It will never happen in Quebec. Ever.
 
Machjo
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#5

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
I agree. But what's the point of making French compulsory unless the school can guarantee a decent rate of success. A law such as this would put pressure on schools to do something to improve the rate of success, would it not?
 
scratch
#6

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
As far as Europe is concerned English is the most spoken and the most desired to be spoken second language. France french has become so inundated with english it is sad.
 
Machjo
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#7

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
We must make a distinction between learning and succeeding. In Quebec, 100% of the pupulation that was born in Quebec and never left the province has studied English, but that doesn't mean that if you go to Roberval today or Charlevoix tomorrow that many people there will be able to chat with you in English without extreme difficulty, and that's just for the most mondane conversation.

Same in Europe. According to one advertising agency, only 6% of Western Europeans have a real knowledge of English. Sure in France over 90% learn English, and in Italy over 80%, and in Germany almost everyone. But waht counts is not how many people are learning the language, but how many succeed in learning it.

In Ontario, to the best of my knowledge, everyone learns French. But good luck getting around in French in Kitchener.
 
Machjo
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#8

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by scratchView Post

It will never happen in Quebec. Ever.

Ever is a long time, but if you mean in the foreseeable future, I might agree with you. I was not saying this because I beleive Quebec would go for this, but merely to point out that while I'm in favour of not making French compulsory in Ontario, I'm not folowing the double standard of expecting French speakers across Quebec to learn English. I do believe that what applies to one applies to all.
 
Machjo
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#9

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Or just to take a more concrete example, Scratch. Have you ever studied French? Has it proven useful to you? Maybe, maybe not. But either way, it could give you some idea of the rate of success across Ontario.
 
scratch
#10

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Machjo,

I was raised and educated in Quebec, inthe English system and the teaching of French was paramount. I lived ans worked there in both languages for almost 40 years.
So what French do you speak: joele, regular or High Speech.

Laisse-moi savoir.
Salut,
scratch
 
Machjo
Avatar
#11

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by scratchView Post

Machjo,

I was raised and educated in Quebec, inthe English system and the teaching of French was paramount. I lived ans worked there in both languages for almost 40 years.
So what French do you speak: joele, regular or High Speech.

Laisse-moi savoir.
Salut,
scratch

C'est bon, Scratch. Je ne vais pas perdre mon temp avec les accents sur ce forum. Pardon, mais j'aime tapper vite.

Comme tu doit bien le savoir, a Montreal presque toute la population est bilingue, donc c'est un environnement ideal pour apprendre le francais et l'anglais.

A tu deja visite Robervalle ou Charlevoix?

Fait juste regarder les statisticques de 2006. La pluspart d'est quebecois ne sont pas capable de parler en anglais. Et de meme en Ontario en ce qui concerne le francais. Comparer Montreal a d'autres parties du Canada, ca ne se fait pas dans ce cas-ci.
 
Machjo
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#12

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Now Scratch. If the school can guarantee a decent rate of success, then by all means, I fully agree that it compel its pupils to learn a second language. And this will often be the case with students in an English-medium school in Montreal or a French-medium school in Ontario.

But this does not automatically apply to a French-medium school in Quebec city or an English-medium school in Edmonton, or even Ottawa for that matter. Even in Ottawa the majority populaiotn appears to have failed to have learnt English. I'll try to find the statistics on that one.
 
scratch
#13

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Just as an addition. Where I live now, about 25 miles from Quebec in Ontario, the town that I live in is about a 60% French/40% English split. More often than not you are addressed in French, most flyers are 100% French and as far as signing goes, French only signs out-number English ones by 3 to 1.
So what has changed for me nothing.

One thing though we are close enough to Cornwall to have people passing through from the New England states and Ohio and if they are detected by store owners they are strictly served in French and American money is scoffed at.

Do I live in an extension of `mon pays bleu`? You bet.

regs,
scratch
 
Machjo
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#14

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
OK. Here are the statistics for Ottawa-Gatineau:

Population: 1,117,120
English only: 507,175
French only: 102,375
English and French: 496,025
Neitehr: 11,540

So if people are failing to learn their second language in such large numbers even right on the frigging Ontario-Quebec border, I thin it's a clear indication of just how difficult English and French are to learn for the general population.
 
Scott Free
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#15

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
We have too many laws in this stupid country. what is the goal of them all? What is the underlining message? When will it stop? What is the goal? We are already totalitarian but now the national discourse is on how totalitarian we want to be and how quickly we want to get there - that is the elephant in the room.

f**k more laws. What we need is fewer damn politicians telling us how to live!
 
Machjo
Avatar
#16

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post

We have too many laws in this stupid country. what is the goal of them all? What is the underlining message? When will it stop? What is the goal? We are already totalitarian but now the national discourse is on how totalitarian we want to be and how quickly we want to get there - that is the elephant in the room.

f**k more laws. What we need is fewer damn politicians telling us how to live!

You obviously haven't read the law proposed otherwise you'd be supporting it. Essentially, it would ban probably most schools from making a second language compulsory. This could potentially translate into freedom from a second language for alot of students. By the sound of it, you'd be in favour of less freedom. Did you even bother to read the law being proposed?
 
Scott Free
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#17

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

By the sound of it, you'd be in favour of less freedom.

Awe, did you forget your thinking cap today?

Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

Did you even bother to read the law being proposed?

We need fewer damn laws not more. Just abolish whatever law requires students to learn French.
 
#juan
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#18

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post

We have too many laws in this stupid country. what is the goal of them all? What is the underlining message? When will it stop? What is the goal? We are already totalitarian but now the national discourse is on how totalitarian we want to be and how quickly we want to get there - that is the elephant in the room.

f**k more laws. What we need is fewer damn politicians telling us how to live!

No, we have too many stupids who don't appreciate the great country they live in. Totalitarian? You don't know what the word means.
 
Machjo
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#19

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post



We need fewer damn laws not more. Just abolish whatever law requires students to learn French.

Unfortunately, I doubt many people would go with that. Then again, maybe few would even go with what I'm proposing too. But I figure that might have more of a chance that just getting rid of French altogether.

I could be wrong too of course. Just brainstorming ideas.
 
darkbeaver
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#20

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

And by the way, for those of you who think this is just some franco-phobic rant, Je suis francophone moi meme, et je suis certainement pret a debatre ce point en francais aussi. Ce n'est qu'une question d'investissement efficace de temp et d'argent dans nos ecoles.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this issue in either French or English. And before anyone accuses me of double standards, I'b be all in favour of a similar law for Quebec, where statistics indicate that they're experiencing an equally miserable rate of success in English.

And before you point to Europe as some kind of model for bilingualism, statistics there are worse, with only about 6% of Western Europeans able to fuction fully in English, according to a 2001 poll.

That's french, right, haha if you let them push this down your throat soon they'll force you to learn math it's just a matter of time. I wish they'd forced me to learn something. Bad french or english or german is better than none , isn't it?
 
scratch
#21

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Keep it going!
 
Scott Free
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#22

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by #juanView Post

No, we have too many stupids who don't appreciate the great country they live in. Totalitarian? You don't know what the word means.

That shows how much you know.

What do you figure, totalitarianism has to look like North Korea?

Here educate yourself:

link

 
Machjo
Avatar
#23

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

That's french, right, haha if you let them push this down your throat soon they'll force you to learn math it's just a matter of time. I wish they'd forced me to learn something. Bad french or english or german is better than none , isn't it?

There's a difference between maths and a second language. Maths is reinforced outside the classroom. You use it at the shop counting change, calculating taxes, making an investment, building a fence for your backyard (measuring lengths, etc.), etc.

And owing to the environment, even a little is better than none (if all you can do is add and subract, you can already buy food at the market). But with languge, it's different. Many people never use it again outside the classroom. And to know a little can simply lead to overconfidence and so misunderstandings. In China, I'd witnessed enough businessmen running into contract and legal problems caused by bad English. In such cases, none would have been better than a little because it would not have lead to overconfidence in the language and force people to professional translators.

Another point to make is that the law proposed above would not ban students to choose to learn a second language; it wold merely stop schools from forcing students to learn it unless they can guarantee a reasonable rate of success.
 
Machjo
#24

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by scratchView Post

Keep it going!

I'm sorry, maybe I missed something. Keep what going?
 
Risus
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#25

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
I don't believe anyone in Ontario should be forced to learn french. Period. You will NEVER see teaching English being manditory in Quebec...
 
scratch
#26

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
The discussion about a second language.

I have a very important question for you:

When you are writing in French or speaking French, are you thinking in English and then translating, because if you are you are not bilingual, you are just pretending to be.

My advice to you, leave it alone for you shall never win.

scratch
 
darkbeaver
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#27

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

There's a difference between maths and a second language. Maths is reinforced outside the classroom. You use it at the shop counting change, calculating taxes, making an investment, building a fence for your backyard (measuring lengths, etc.), etc.

And owing to the environment, even a little is better than none (if all you can do is add and subract, you can already buy food at the market). But with languge, it's different. Many people never use it again outside the classroom. And to know a little can simply lead to overconfidence and so misunderstandings. In China, I'd witnessed enough businessmen running into contract and legal problems caused by bad English. In such cases, none would have been better than a little because it would not have lead to overconfidence in the language and force people to professional translators.

Another point to make is that the law proposed above would not ban students to choose to learn a second language; it wold merely stop schools from forcing students to learn it unless they can guarantee a reasonable rate of success.

I see what you're describing as the problem I just have this resentment about not being emersed in french forty-five years ago. Machjo what is the advantage to be gained by not forceing the language instruction?
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#28

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by scratchView Post

The discussion about a second language.

I have a very important question for you:

When you are writing in French or speaking French, are you thinking in English and then translating, because if you are you are not bilingual, you are just pretending to be.

My advice to you, leave it alone for you shall never win.

scratch

Hey scratch my sister learned enough french to have three bilingual kids with a french Canadian.
 
Scott Free
Avatar
#29

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

Unfortunately, I doubt many people would go with that. Then again, maybe few would even go with what I'm proposing too. But I figure that might have more of a chance that just getting rid of French altogether.

I could be wrong too of course. Just brainstorming ideas.

I'm sure your right actually. People seem to think laws make them safer, protect them or something... I'm not sure why they think that but their fears play right into the hands of the power elite IMO.
 
scratch
#30

Re: Do we need this language law?

Nov 18th, 2008
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

Hey scratch my sister learned enough french to have three bilingual kids with a french Canadian.

db,
That's the only way to do it.
scratch
 

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