Faith-based schools

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
How provincial governments finance religious schools

When the writ dropped for the 2007 Ontario election, funding faith-based schools — a proposal by Conservative Leader John Tory — suddenly become one of the province's most contested issues.
The reality, though, is that Canada's political leaders have hemmed and hawed over ways to accommodate the country's diverse faiths in the school system since the days of Confederation.
The solution then was to fund two separate school boards, one Catholic and one Protestant — essentially to represent the English and French fact of the day — and the decision was enshrined in the British North America Act of 1867.

However, as Canada became increasingly diverse through successive waves of immigration, provinces devised their own unique methods for handling the place of religion in the education system. Some education ministries have allocated partial funding to faith-based schools, two pay the full tab for some of their religious schools, while others have moved to an entirely secular, public system.

In the beginning
In the early 19th century, religious and charity groups established the first formal schools in Canada. Mid-century, colonial governments began setting up the first public schools while maintaining religious instruction.
In Upper and Lower Canada (present day Ontario and Quebec), problems arose because the religious minorities in each region, Catholic and Protestant respectively, rejected the religious practices of the majority.
Catholics in what was to become Ontario did not want their children following the Protestant practice of Bible studies in school, while Protestants in Quebec did not want their children learning Roman Catholic dogma. As a result, governments in the two jurisdictions established dual school systems to accommodate both religious denominations and these systems were enshrined in the British North America Act at the time of Confederation in 1867.
Over time, the originally Protestant school boards of English Canada evolved into the secular public system, and the provinces were forced to decide how to handle the remaining religious schools.
Currently, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Quebec provide at least partial funding to independent, mostly religious schools, while New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland and Labrador do not.
Faith-based school funding at a glance
B.C.: Partial funding.

Alberta: Full funding to faith-based and charter public school boards, and 60 per cent funding to private schools delivering provincial curriculum.

Saskatchewan: Full funding to historical high schools and schools associated with school districts; partial for others.

Manitoba: Fifty per cent of the funding provided public schools for operating costs if they comply
with provincial standards.

Ontario: Full funding for the Catholic board only.

Quebec: Partial funding to established religious schools that follow the Quebec curriculum.

New Brunswick: No funding.

Nova Scotia: No funding.

P.E.I.: No funding.

Newfoundland and Labrador: No funding.


In the West
When it joined Confederation, British Columbia established a public, secular system. Today, faith-based schools operate as independent schools governed by provincial jurisdiction and receive a portion of their funding from the province.
All of the province's 355 independently operated schools, many of which are faith-based, are regulated and funding is distributed according to five distinct categories. The largest category, with more than 67,000 students, receives 50 per cent of the funding available to their local school district. Another category, with more than 14,000 students, receives 35 per cent of the local per-student level.
The province spent about $211 million to fund independent schools during the 2006-2007 school year, and the Education Department estimates that to incorporate these students into the public school system would cost an additional $275 million.
When Alberta joined in 1905, it developed Catholic and Protestant boards. Some religious schools now exist within the public system and receive full government funding. Other private schools in the province, including religious schools that deliver provincial curriculum, are eligible for up to 60 per cent of public school funding for their operating costs. These schools do not receive capital funding from the province.
Saskatchewan has a similar system in place for 14 faith-based schools in the province that meet provincial criteria. These schools are divided into two categories: historical high schools and associated schools.
The province's six historical high schools, which serve 717 students, were established early in the 20th century by churches and are thus grandfathered into the public system and fully funded.
There are 1,667 students enrolled in the province's eight associated schools, which are faith-based schools affiliated with a school district and which comply with provincial standards. These schools receive funding based on individual negotiations with their school divisions. There are also 28 religious schools in the province serving 640 students that are not directly funded.
The dual school system had a brief run in Manitoba, where it was introduced in 1871 and scrapped for a secular system by 1896.
Independent schools in the province, which can be non-denominational or faith-based, are eligible for public funds at approximately 50 per cent of the amount provided to public schools if they meet government standards for curriculum, teaching and administration. They account for 13,000 students, with most of them (84 per cent) enrolled in religious schools, predominantly Catholic. These independent schools aren't eligible for capital funding but their operating costs amounted to approximately $46.4 million in 2006-2007.
There are also 45 schools in the province that don't follow Manitoba's curriculum or employ certified teachers and aren't eligible for public funding. Almost 96 per cent are faith based. A total of 12,105 students attend independent and non-funded faith-based schools in Manitoba, accounting for about 6.6 per cent of the total public school enrolment of 182,185 students.

Quebec and Atlantic Canada
Quebec replaced its religious boards with English- and French-language ones in 1998. The remaining faith-based schools in the province are classified as private, but can receive provincial funding of 60 per cent of what public schools receive if they comply with provincial guidelines — for example if they follow the provincial curriculum and allow government inspections and student testing.
In the Maritimes, the public schools are secular and the provincial governments provide no funding for faith-based schools. In Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, education was originally provided through a single system that allowed Roman Catholic children to be grouped for education, effectively providing a split system within the public one.
Newfoundland had one of the most complex denominational systems, with multiple school boards for several Protestant factions. In 1920 the province established a unified education system that worked through five denominational subsystems. In 1997, the province moved to a secular system and stopped funding all faith-based schools. There are four private religious schools in the province, three Catholic and one Baptist, serving 511 students that receive no public funding.

The Ontario situation
Ontario is the only province that fully funds Catholic education while not providing any funding to other faith-based schools, a holdover from Confederation.
Catholic schooling was guaranteed at the elementary level through the British North America act. In 1985, in a controversial decision that looked to have rebounded against his party, retiring Conservative premier Bill Davis extended full funding to Catholic high schools.
Currently in Ontario, 95 per cent of students attend publicly funded schools, with 650,000 of those or roughly 31 per cent attending Catholic schools. Two per cent or approximately 53,000 students attend faith-based private schools, while the remaining three per cent attend other private schools.
Funding the Catholic system only has angered the other faith-based schools in the province and prompted numerous court challenges. The matter was even taken to the UN Human Rights Committee, which ruled in 1999 that this was discriminatory.
On Aug. 27, members from the Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim and Armenian communities banded together to form the Public Education Fairness Network, a lobby group calling on the Ontario government to fund all faith-based schools that meet provincial standards.
Their cause was also taken up by Conservative Leader John Tory.

The arguments
"The current situation is unfair and indefensible," said Howard English, spokesman for both the new network and the United Jewish Appeal Federation of greater Toronto.
"When one uses the term public education, we're not talking about a secular system, we're talking about a system that already includes about 650,000 faith-based students who go to Catholic schools," he said. "We're saying that it's unjust to provide funding for one faith-based system that meets provincial standards while keeping other students out.
"These schools believe very strongly that a faith-based system would reflect the diversity of 21st-century Ontario."
The Ontario Public School Boards Association disagrees. The association opposes the extension of funding for any form of private school in Ontario, including faith-based schools.
"We feel that it's very divisive," said Colleen Schenk, OPSBA vice-president and spokeswoman. "If we extended funding to these private schools it could create silos where people focus on their differences."
Schenk said the association believes that public education helps to unite students in multi-cultural provinces like Ontario.
University of Toronto education professor Ben Levin said a change in school administration would do little, if anything, to address issues surrounding religion in schools.
"I don't think issues on religion and language will ever be resolved in Canada, they're deeply contentious issues," he said, adding that it wouldn't improve student performance either.
Levin said Ontarians should be focusing on access to the school system and accomplishments rather than governance, and "the administrative structure does not determine your achievement."
In fact, he said, changing the structure of the education system actually could detract from student performance, because "changing the system is costly in terms of people's time and attention."

Election issue
The issue of funding for faith-based schools dominated the first week of the election campaign.
The Conservative are promising to extend funding to the other faith-based schools would cost roughly $400 million annually. The only requirement for the funding would be that the schools comply with provincial educational regulations, for example by hiring accredited teachers and following provincial curriculum.
"This is a plan that will bring faith-based schools, which currently exist outside of the public system, inside that system instead, subject to clear, reasonable conditions," Tory said.
Liberal Leader Dalton McGuinty slammed the Tory plan, saying that extending the funding would be divisive.
"If we're going to bring about more improvement in publicly funded schools, it is regressive to contemplate segregating our children according to their faith," McGuinty said. "I want our kids to continue coming together."
The Liberal party also estimated that fully funding the existing religious schools would cost upwards of $500 million. The party says that at $9,526 per student in public education multiplied by the 53,000 existing private religious school students, the cost will be $504 million without consideration for increased enrolment, repairs, transition costs and inflation.
The Green Party claims on its website that the "only fair solution" to the debate would be to amalgamate the Catholic and public school boards into a single system.
The New Democrats have said only that their education plan focuses on improving the existing school system.
While the parties battle the issue out on the campaign trail, recent polls suggest the population is almost as divided as the politicians.
A Sept. 10 poll conducted by Ipsos Reid for CanWest News Service found that 35 per cent of Ontarians supported the Tory plan to extend funding to all faith-based schools that comply with provincial standards, with 62 per cent opposed. Ipsos Reid found that more than half of Ontarians, 53 per cent, would like to see the public and Catholic systems merged into a single school system.
An Environics poll from Sept. 13, found that 48 per cent of Ontarians support the Tory plan while 44 per cent were opposed. Meanwhile, 47 per cent of Ontarians favour the Green plan to remove the funding of Catholic schools and direct all money to an amalgamated public system.
Ontarians go to the polls Oct. 10.
http://www.cbc.ca/ontariovotes2007/features/features-faith.html
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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I think it's ridiculous to be funding religion anyway. Authentic religion already has a tax free charitable status to begin with so allowing it to transfer funds from the congregations to the pulpit without paying their fair share is directly supporting education in religion. Why it should be foisted even further than it is already I find to be an outrageous demand on the tax payers.

In nothing more than a setting aside a section of the public trough for the likes of Benny Hinn and Peter Popov to open new venues for the accumulation of money from the gullible, and forging that naivety from the get go with children as they begin to start their education right up to the start of their adult life is right up there in stupidity with allowing radical Sharia laws into our own political and justice system.

There is no more Protestant majority system dictating the moral direction with morning prayers and a crucifix stationed here and there to remind all of the one true god and faith. With the banishment of government ordered religious indoctrination through the schools the Roman Catholic Board no longer has anything to fear from Catholic children being taught something other than RC dogma. It's long past due for all religion to carry it's own weight
or waddle off into the sunset with all the other mythical stories of the past.

Don't be fooled for a moment. There are plenty of things your taxes can be put towards that benefit everyone, not just a few people already feeling a little closer to god than thee.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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In the bush near Sudbury
In 1867, Canada was founded on Christian principles. Education is funded on those principles - Catholic and non-Catholic alike. IN my humble opinion, it's time we stuck to the principles and said NO to these people who come to our country then demand we change to suit them. In Ontario, and all over Canada, the only nation who should have a right to ask for a piece of the public education pie is the one who hasn't - our own First Nations.

Wolf
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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In this day and age, it either has to be all or none for faith based education funding, I think the latter is best. I would think most religions have some form of education already for the young in the church/temple/mosque, etc.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Leiden, the Netherlands
Shouldn't children have the right to an environment free from invasive conditioning? That is, shouldn't children have the right to self-determination? Filling a mind with facts is one thing, filling a mind with opinions is quite another. The OECD today released a report that showed large schools are a far more effective mechanism for efficient education, so we should probably distance ourselves from legislation which would move in the opposite direction and endorse many small private schools.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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In the bush near Sudbury
Faith - based Schools

Libs and NDP are against it. Tories aren't doing so well in the polls. Is the issue of faith-based schools a Mulroney/Conservative trick to split the vote? Sorry JT ... that only works when your party's in power.

Wolf
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
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Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
I agree with most of youse on this one to be sure...

Having schools for every religion is pointless- schools should, if anything, be a "moderator" of sorts AGAINST prejudices taught by some religions, and the way the public system is set up right now it sems to work on that level

Religion is NOT math, phys-ed, art, science, or languages for that matter. Schools should be based mostly on provable, repeatable stuff, with mysticism treated as just that- mysticism, religious or otherwise

What happens when "cat people" decide that there should be a "cat lovers board of education" which incorporates praise for felines into everything, and teaches everything in terms of how it impacts cats, and what "kitty" would think/do/say

I love heavy metal, so if I have kids I have every right to have a heavy metal school board to send tham to

And you CAN'T have Leafs fans and Habs fans at the same school, beter designate a few more boards for that

Not knocking any faith, btw, just saying that what you want to do in your spare time is your business, school is for learning how to read and count and think and interact, not to be told what to "believe" in a metaphysical way, which is why as much as I'd LOVE it, I would NOT support a heavy metal school board anymore than I would a cat-people one or a Hindu one or a Muslim one or a Catholic one
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
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Eastern Ontario
I personally think it should be all or nothing....and a tend to be on the nothing side. As much as I have religon as part of my life I don't think the gov. needs or should fund it... But that means all religon's. If we put all our money in one school board..(as Ontario use to have before Bill Davis) we would have a very well funded school system. If you wanted a religous and moral based school you were welcome to go..and pay. Organized religons would also fund these schools so that the tuition was not out of this world.

Now the otherhand.

If we fund one sect of the Christian religon and only one...well it's rather hard to stand on that..are Jew's less Canadian..or muslims...or hundu's...if we all pay for one system fine..but we all pay for two systems no matter if we want either one or not.... Doesn't wash to me...

There's a bit of having your cake and eating it to with the Liberal approach, and a worry of funding the jew's for Harley davison's sect on the other...
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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California
In this day and age, it either has to be all or none for faith based education funding, I think the latter is best. I would think most religions have some form of education already for the young in the church/temple/mosque, etc.

Any religious schooling should take care of its own funding, supplies, building, and staff. Secular education is the equipping children with the necessities of living a secure and stable life to the best of our ability. There should be a broad range of topics taught, questions allowed and debate encouraged.

I argue against regligious schools although I believe a family should have a choice if they so wish, but would prefer regular secular education during the week and religion on after school or weekend time....but my argument would be the example the Madrassas in Pakistan present whereas the children who attend these terrorist training camps learn only to read and write Arabic and to live for the destruction of the enemies of Islam. Little boys at seven and eight learning to hate.

Is that education? Or mind control.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Any religious schooling should take care of its own funding, supplies, building, and staff. Secular education is the equipping children with the necessities of living a secure and stable life to the best of our ability. There should be a broad range of topics taught, questions allowed and debate encouraged.

I argue against regligious schools although I believe a family should have a choice if they so wish, but would prefer regular secular education during the week and religion on after school or weekend time....but my argument would be the example the Madrassas in Pakistan present whereas the children who attend these terrorist training camps learn only to read and write Arabic and to live for the destruction of the enemies of Islam. Little boys at seven and eight learning to hate.

Is that education? Or mind control.

No question that is mind control. Similarly a secular education is also mind control of sorts, without teaching a biased one sided account which leads children to hate that which they do not know. A secular education is teaching students how to use that mind. I fear that teaching students from a static religious doctrine is counter-productive.

Secular education is a fine institution. I obviously agree with you Curio, that religious techings are best left to after-school, but I do think comparative world religions are a fine class to teach. I took one in high school, a very thought provoking course, which is what education is all about.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Leiden, the Netherlands
Hahaha, I just thought of a strange and disturbing analogy.

In World of Warcraft the priests get a special ability called mind control. An effective use of mind control is forcing an opposing player to run off a cliff to their demise.

I wonder if that is by design?
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Hahaha, I just thought of a strange and disturbing analogy.

In World of Warcraft the priests get a special ability called mind control. An effective use of mind control is forcing an opposing player to run off a cliff to their demise.

I wonder if that is by design?

Lol, I never thought of that. That's hilarious!
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
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Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
On the local news/talk radio a new crop of ads cropped up today from some "concerned parents" organization (which I assume is some religious front organization, tho I'd have to check once I confirm the name of said group) that is using the "seamless" transition to our 2 separate school boards as an example of how "critics" were wrong, that it worked perfectly and that we SHOULD make boards for every damn religion and belief system, all funded publically

I really don't get where this is going and I don't think Tory intended it to go down like this either

What seemed at first to be a sneaky way to mobilize wacko fundamentalists who want "creationism" taught in schools has turned into pandora's flippin box- Tory waffled SO hard last week saying how what he MEANT to say was that the Catholic board should be scrapped (only lasted for like half a news cycle) which is obvious bollocks

Now the debate seems to be have plunged completely into dangerous territory, with a lot of calls (and frankly justified ones I might add, he DID want to play the religion card) for the abolition of the Catholic board, which is lookin more and more like rather than uniting all "people of faith" has actually fragmented many groups who are overall in agreement

I'm sure Torys campaign managers cribbed the strategy from Dubya down in the US but somehow didn't actually realize that Ontario isn't really the same thing as the US.

I wonder how much he regrets ever bringing this silliness up- there's not enough support for the notion from any one group.

HA now it just came on they radio that his actual stance IS "fund all or none"- that is NOT what the liar said initially no matter what he might insist- does he forget that we have newspapers and the internet and stuff??
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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I heard last night that there is a Conservative who said if elected he wouldn't vote for his own leaders plan. I wonder if any others will follow suit?
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Leiden, the Netherlands
Yeah, its a real shame for Tory. If he could somehow rally the people of all religions to his party he would be gold. Of course, I do believe there is some cultural centrism that prevents religions from uniting to demolish the secular fronts.

That is, I think, "All or nothing" is like telling Christians that there won't be any Christmas decorations in public and like telling non-Christians that there will be. Its an all or nothing bet on the politician's part and I would hedge on the nothing aspect.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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California
Tonington

Agreed - comparative religion - usually combined with historical subjects is an excellent tribue to the history of mankind - and often it is the only exposure to the basis of religion in mankind some children ever learn if their parents happen to be secularists or lapsed worshippers. All children should be exposed to what religion is and the differences among them thoughout the world.

One of my favorite subjects in school was the opportunity to find something worth discussing in the local paper - and submit it - choosing up sides if necessary to tear it to shreds. In my day fewer teachers pushed their own beliefs than do now...so we had a great collection of diverse topics....and I am off topic here sorry... Back to religions being taught...

I was referring to the established religions in existence who have classes for the young along the lines of their particular ideology set up in their place of worship or what we usually term meeting rooms.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Curio,

What you call meeting rooms is what I called Sunday School ;) One year, we actually had a teacher who gave out homework assignments and checked our homework the following week, religiously! I was sick the week we were to attend confession, and the teacher was very angry, contacted my mother, and wanted me to go, and he wanted to be there to make sure I took confession. My mother was quite angry with him.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
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California
I'm sorry you had that bad experience Tonington

The teacher didn't seem concerned you could have infected the whole class by showing up when you were ill.

Bad judgment on his part.

From what you exhibit now - I'd offer a safe comment you didn't need his 'wisdom' nor teaching - you are doing just beautifully without that unpleasant glitch. Teachers are teachers - and are not perfect. They should be the first ones to admit the fact and demonstrate as much curiosity as their
students who bring new information to the classroom all the time. Teachers must be able to change as quickly as the wind and readjust their time with the students to an exciting hour or two in exploration.