Durgan
Posts: 248 
Location: Brantford, ON
Location: Brantford, ON
October 26th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Medical evacuation of Kashechewan Reserve this afternoon,26 Oct 2005, by order of the Premier of Ontario.
The Federal Department of Indian affairs ignored the problem on the KASHECHEWAN RESERVE in Northern Ontario.
A sickness problem was caused by a water supply that took the intake downstream from the sewage lagoon.
This is Political Leadership of the highest order. Premier McGuinty instigated immediate action. He should be applauded.
Durgan.
Medical evacuation of Kashechewan Reserve this afternoon,26 Oct 2005, by order of the Premier of Ontario.
The Federal Department of Indian affairs ignored the problem on the KASHECHEWAN RESERVE in Northern Ontario.
A sickness problem was caused by a water supply that took the intake downstream from the sewage lagoon.
This is Political Leadership of the highest order. Premier McGuinty instigated immediate action. He should be applauded.
Durgan.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
October 26th, 2005, 02:41 PM
He should be applauded.
The only problem is that he shouldn't have had to give the order. The intake should have been properly placed. It should have repaired as soon as it was found not to have been properly placed. The federal government should have given the order long before McGuinty did, since reserves fall under their jurisdiction.
McGuinty shouldn't have had to get involved at all, and he will likely face at least some fallout for doing so.
He should be applauded.
The only problem is that he shouldn't have had to give the order. The intake should have been properly placed. It should have repaired as soon as it was found not to have been properly placed. The federal government should have given the order long before McGuinty did, since reserves fall under their jurisdiction.
McGuinty shouldn't have had to get involved at all, and he will likely face at least some fallout for doing so.
Durgan
Posts: 248
Location: Brantford, ON
Location: Brantford, ON
October 26th, 2005, 04:30 PM
Hindsight indicates that many actions could and should have been undertaken.
McGuinty by his actions comes up looking like a hero, (which he is) at Federal expense.
It will be amusing to see how the Liberals, particularly the Minister responsible for Indian affairs responds. A few people must be squriming in there seats, if not, ****ting their pants.
With all the aid for foreign disasters getting a fair amount of babbletime, it will be hard to see why the Liberals have not cleaned up smaller disasters in their own back yard.
Many reserves are small disaster areas. I don't pretend to have solutions to the problems, or even know all the problems.
One can only hope with this exposure, and action by McGuinty causes some focus on Indian Reserve problems and hopefully some meaningful solutions to improve the quality of life.
Hindsight indicates that many actions could and should have been undertaken.
McGuinty by his actions comes up looking like a hero, (which he is) at Federal expense.
It will be amusing to see how the Liberals, particularly the Minister responsible for Indian affairs responds. A few people must be squriming in there seats, if not, ****ting their pants.
With all the aid for foreign disasters getting a fair amount of babbletime, it will be hard to see why the Liberals have not cleaned up smaller disasters in their own back yard.
Many reserves are small disaster areas. I don't pretend to have solutions to the problems, or even know all the problems.
One can only hope with this exposure, and action by McGuinty causes some focus on Indian Reserve problems and hopefully some meaningful solutions to improve the quality of life.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
October 26th, 2005, 09:07 PM
He'll face some opposition from those who try to claim he should have acted sooner. He'll face some hard feelings from the feds. He'll also run into some opposition from those who want to know why he helped "those f*cking Indians," although they tend to put it in nicer terms these days.
The reason the Department of Indian Affairs doesn't act on these things is because they can't. They've been crippled in a political mess between the natives and Ottawa. The department can't do anything except follow policy. That throws it right back into the Minister's lap.
The last Minister of Indian Affairs that was worth a damn was Jean Chretien. That's back before he sold his soul to the political machine. He made a difference though, and it still gets federal votes on reserves to this day.
I think I was eight when Chretien had that portfolio. I'm 41 now.
He'll face some opposition from those who try to claim he should have acted sooner. He'll face some hard feelings from the feds. He'll also run into some opposition from those who want to know why he helped "those f*cking Indians," although they tend to put it in nicer terms these days.
The reason the Department of Indian Affairs doesn't act on these things is because they can't. They've been crippled in a political mess between the natives and Ottawa. The department can't do anything except follow policy. That throws it right back into the Minister's lap.
The last Minister of Indian Affairs that was worth a damn was Jean Chretien. That's back before he sold his soul to the political machine. He made a difference though, and it still gets federal votes on reserves to this day.
I think I was eight when Chretien had that portfolio. I'm 41 now.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534 
October 26th, 2005, 09:39 PM
I would very much doubt if any minister for Indian and Northern affairs would have intimate knowledge about individual water intakes and sewer outfals. If the sewage lagoon drain was there first, you sure as hell shouldn't put a water intake downstream from it and vice versa. No self respecting, qualified plumber would do that, so the question remains. Who did install it. If I were putting a water intake in a stream for my own use, I would have to get a building permit and provide drawings showing what I was doing for approval by the department in question. I know it's lovely to bash the politicians but somebody lower down dropped the ball on this one.
I would very much doubt if any minister for Indian and Northern affairs would have intimate knowledge about individual water intakes and sewer outfals. If the sewage lagoon drain was there first, you sure as hell shouldn't put a water intake downstream from it and vice versa. No self respecting, qualified plumber would do that, so the question remains. Who did install it. If I were putting a water intake in a stream for my own use, I would have to get a building permit and provide drawings showing what I was doing for approval by the department in question. I know it's lovely to bash the politicians but somebody lower down dropped the ball on this one.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
October 26th, 2005, 09:52 PM
When I lived in Battleford everybody in town knew that the intake was downstream from the outlet. That's an honest-to-god city.
I know Montreal Lake used to be the same way, although I don't know if they've fixed it.
What you have to remember about reserves, Juan, is that things have been extremely ****ed up since the very beginning. Nobody cares and then the shysters move in. They do things wrong but nobody notices because of the politics. The natives and sometimes DIA scream bloody murder about it, but somehow the money never shows up and the problem never gets fixed.
I can't really explain it except to say that you have to go to some of these places to get an idea. The more remote, the better.
When I lived in Battleford everybody in town knew that the intake was downstream from the outlet. That's an honest-to-god city.
I know Montreal Lake used to be the same way, although I don't know if they've fixed it.
What you have to remember about reserves, Juan, is that things have been extremely ****ed up since the very beginning. Nobody cares and then the shysters move in. They do things wrong but nobody notices because of the politics. The natives and sometimes DIA scream bloody murder about it, but somehow the money never shows up and the problem never gets fixed.
I can't really explain it except to say that you have to go to some of these places to get an idea. The more remote, the better.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
October 26th, 2005, 10:11 PM
When I was a kid Rev
My dad had twelve cabins, a gas pump, and a store on a little lake about ten miles north of Burns Lake. The family had a small sawmill just up the lake. We employed up to a half dozen natives at the mill doing everything from skidding in logs with a tractor to working on the green chain. These guys did fine work but we just didn't expect them back for four days after payday. Some days one of us would pick them up from the reserve. On the reserve, their well was no more than ten feet from their outhouse. I guess as long as everyone was healthy, there was no problem and it had been like that for years. Who knows?
When I was a kid Rev
My dad had twelve cabins, a gas pump, and a store on a little lake about ten miles north of Burns Lake. The family had a small sawmill just up the lake. We employed up to a half dozen natives at the mill doing everything from skidding in logs with a tractor to working on the green chain. These guys did fine work but we just didn't expect them back for four days after payday. Some days one of us would pick them up from the reserve. On the reserve, their well was no more than ten feet from their outhouse. I guess as long as everyone was healthy, there was no problem and it had been like that for years. Who knows?
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
October 27th, 2005, 09:11 AM
It seems the problem should have been brought to the attention of the local Dept of Indian and Northern Affairs agent, who should have brought it to the attention of the applicable authorities, and the problem should have been solved without all the politicing. Rev, you say the problem has been there for years? Let's blame Mulroney.
It seems the problem should have been brought to the attention of the local Dept of Indian and Northern Affairs agent, who should have brought it to the attention of the applicable authorities, and the problem should have been solved without all the politicing. Rev, you say the problem has been there for years? Let's blame Mulroney.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
October 27th, 2005, 11:03 AM
Actually, blaming Mulroney isn't totally out of the question. For about a decade before he came to power, things had been getting slowly, very slowly, better on reserves. When he came to power, they began to get worse again.
Chretien and Martin did little to reverse that trend. Chretien did get the whole self-government and land-claims process rolling for real, but at the same time it was used as an excuse not to introduce other programs.
Actually, blaming Mulroney isn't totally out of the question. For about a decade before he came to power, things had been getting slowly, very slowly, better on reserves. When he came to power, they began to get worse again.
Chretien and Martin did little to reverse that trend. Chretien did get the whole self-government and land-claims process rolling for real, but at the same time it was used as an excuse not to introduce other programs.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,458
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
October 27th, 2005, 10:31 PM
Pretty shocking story. Hard to believe this can happen in Canada. If this wasn't so serious, it would be funny to watch the feds and the province point fingers at one another. Here's what I would like to see come out of this situation:
1) a full inquiry to see how this known problem could slip between the cracks of provincial and federal responsibility. Obviously there needs to be some kind of mechanism here to prevent this.
2) an intense self-examination from both the feds and the provincial liberals to see who dropped the ball here. Heavy public pressure will help - be sure to write you MP & MPP.
3) a broader discussion about the status of natives in the country - there needs to be some change. Everything on the table, including complete abolition of the 'Native Affairs' ministries at all levels. Maybe its time to rethink this whole two tier, special status approach. It doesnt' seem to be working.
I hope that the debate will focus on actual solutions rather than partisan finger pointing... but i wont' hold my breath.
Sad.
Pretty shocking story. Hard to believe this can happen in Canada. If this wasn't so serious, it would be funny to watch the feds and the province point fingers at one another. Here's what I would like to see come out of this situation:
1) a full inquiry to see how this known problem could slip between the cracks of provincial and federal responsibility. Obviously there needs to be some kind of mechanism here to prevent this.
2) an intense self-examination from both the feds and the provincial liberals to see who dropped the ball here. Heavy public pressure will help - be sure to write you MP & MPP.
3) a broader discussion about the status of natives in the country - there needs to be some change. Everything on the table, including complete abolition of the 'Native Affairs' ministries at all levels. Maybe its time to rethink this whole two tier, special status approach. It doesnt' seem to be working.
I hope that the debate will focus on actual solutions rather than partisan finger pointing... but i wont' hold my breath.
Sad.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
October 27th, 2005, 10:53 PM
My problem Mike, is that I don't think natives are that stupid. Who would put a water intake downstream of a sewer outfall? I think we are too willing to blame whitey for all native problems. It is time the first nations people start to think for themselves. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the water intake should be upstream of the sewer outfall. Someone mentioned that there are other situations where natives have to boil their water. Surely to God the natives are not just learning today that you shouldn't have your well downhill, or downstream, from your toilet. They are not babies. Enough already.
My problem Mike, is that I don't think natives are that stupid. Who would put a water intake downstream of a sewer outfall? I think we are too willing to blame whitey for all native problems. It is time the first nations people start to think for themselves. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the water intake should be upstream of the sewer outfall. Someone mentioned that there are other situations where natives have to boil their water. Surely to God the natives are not just learning today that you shouldn't have your well downhill, or downstream, from your toilet. They are not babies. Enough already.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
October 27th, 2005, 11:27 PM
You have to understand the way things work though. In this case the band had a plan for an $18 million dollar project. They were told to do it with $4 million. Corners get cut, things get done wrong, and nobody catches it because there's no money to do the checking with. People bring it up, but they are told to write a report and have an expert analysis done. There's no money for that either.
In this case, the band did write a report. It's been on the minister's desk for a couple of months. They complained for a very long time before that. They've talked to their MP, and the Department of Indian Affairs, and the minister. Their MP has talked to the Department and the minister. Nothing has been done.
There are currently 51 reserves under boil water advisories. Several have been under those advisories for over five years.
You have to understand the way things work though. In this case the band had a plan for an $18 million dollar project. They were told to do it with $4 million. Corners get cut, things get done wrong, and nobody catches it because there's no money to do the checking with. People bring it up, but they are told to write a report and have an expert analysis done. There's no money for that either.
In this case, the band did write a report. It's been on the minister's desk for a couple of months. They complained for a very long time before that. They've talked to their MP, and the Department of Indian Affairs, and the minister. Their MP has talked to the Department and the minister. Nothing has been done.
There are currently 51 reserves under boil water advisories. Several have been under those advisories for over five years.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
October 28th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Rev, I'm sure you remember the gasoline sniffing children at a little place called Davis Inlet just a few years ago. The fed's solution at that time was to throw money at the problem. The problem was, that the parents weren't looking after their children. What the feds did was build another town a few miles away complete with water and sewer and all the infrastructure but the fact still remains that there are no jobs and it is unlikely there ever will be jobs in that area. Game is scarce and that problem is not likely to improve either. Meanwhile the kids are still neglected after the feds spent a third of a billion dollars on a couple hundred natives who are now complaining that the houses are too small and there are not enough of them. Where does it end? I'm not a racist and I want to see the natives do well but this is not the way.
Rev, I'm sure you remember the gasoline sniffing children at a little place called Davis Inlet just a few years ago. The fed's solution at that time was to throw money at the problem. The problem was, that the parents weren't looking after their children. What the feds did was build another town a few miles away complete with water and sewer and all the infrastructure but the fact still remains that there are no jobs and it is unlikely there ever will be jobs in that area. Game is scarce and that problem is not likely to improve either. Meanwhile the kids are still neglected after the feds spent a third of a billion dollars on a couple hundred natives who are now complaining that the houses are too small and there are not enough of them. Where does it end? I'm not a racist and I want to see the natives do well but this is not the way.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,488
Location: PEI...for now
Location: PEI...for now
October 28th, 2005, 05:27 PM
You can't take them away from the land, but to maintain a sedentary 21st century lifestyle in northern areas are very expensive and difficult to make it pay for itself. I'd move back at the drop of a hat if I could but realistically I'd go nowhere and end up on social assistance just to get by. So I stay down south, and suffer the fact I can't get home.
There are many in northern communities that try to get things motivated for a more economical living. Opening up Fisheries in Cambridge Bay for instance, art from Pond inlet and Holman Island, Tourism and Trophy hunting is also a big thing, but most businesses have to be government run or supported, private ventures usually don't last very long in small isolated communities, and are very expensive to maintain.
Quoting
Therein lies the problem, the areas that they have had to settle into usually do lack resources and is relatively scarce with game, but being their home they are loath to leave the area. They can leave the town but you'd never get to take a community that really has nothing and move every individual to a city elsewhere where there are more opportunities. Everyone would be homesick and want to go back to their home area. But you can't create jobs out of thin air also . Boredom then sets in and you get drinking and other nasty stuff that is associated with the problems you do see. Then there's always a few bad apples that don't use the money given for the people wisley, much like the new problems from Davis inlet with the leaders pocketing it.
Rev, I'm sure you remember the gasoline sniffing children at a little place called Davis Inlet just a few years ago. The fed's solution at that time was to throw money at the problem. The problem was, that the parents weren't looking after their children. What the feds did was build another town a few miles away complete with water and sewer and all the infrastructure but the fact still remains that there are no jobs and it is unlikely there ever will be jobs in that area. Game is scarce and that problem is not likely to improve either. Meanwhile the kids are still neglected after the feds spent a third of a billion dollars on a couple hundred natives who are now complaining that the houses are too small and there are not enough of them. Where does it end? I'm not a racist and I want to see the natives do well but this is not the way.
You can't take them away from the land, but to maintain a sedentary 21st century lifestyle in northern areas are very expensive and difficult to make it pay for itself. I'd move back at the drop of a hat if I could but realistically I'd go nowhere and end up on social assistance just to get by. So I stay down south, and suffer the fact I can't get home.
There are many in northern communities that try to get things motivated for a more economical living. Opening up Fisheries in Cambridge Bay for instance, art from Pond inlet and Holman Island, Tourism and Trophy hunting is also a big thing, but most businesses have to be government run or supported, private ventures usually don't last very long in small isolated communities, and are very expensive to maintain.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
October 28th, 2005, 05:45 PM
It's a very complex problem, or actually set of problems, Juan. It's important to remember that it took well over a century for things to get this ****ed up too...it isn't going to be fixed overnight.
The water problem being in Ontario is almost a blessing when it comes to natie problems though. If the same thing had happened in Manitoba or Saskatchewan (and it has and is), we wouldn't be talking about this right now.
It happened in the province where a bunch of white people died from bad water not all that long ago though. It also happened in the province where the press is most active. Walkerton is being mentioned in all of the news stories today. Suddenly the story isn't a bunch of natives that can be ignored until a special follow-up report can focus on the failures, it's a group of people in a small community. First Nations peoples have, at least for a little while, suddenly been humanised. It's making people squirm like hell.
We...you, me, the government, the opposition, the native groups, and this specific band...are suddenly in a position where the problem has to be solved. Not only does the problem have to solved on Kashechewan, but it has to be solved on the other reserves where it's been ignored.
Phil Fontaine is on the record as saying the Liberal government has come up with a good plan. I know a little about Fontaine and I don't put a lot of stock in what he says, but I also know that he can be a good leader when he has to be. Maybe he'll shine under the pressure. I don't think he can afford to do his usual job.
Mininster of Indian Affairs Andy Scott, oddly enough, seems to have been working very quietly to come up with long-term solutions that some say are good. We'll have to wait and see.
I talked to few people in Scott's department here and in Saskatchewan in the last couple of days. They are kind of freaked right now...afraid that they'll get the fallout. That's unfortunate because most of the people I know in the department are there because they, at some point, wanted to make a difference.
One person I talked to is almost ecstatic because he thinks this will be enough to get past the politics (federal and within the First Nations) and actually allow some real solutions to be found.
I know that you are tired of the money being spent, Juan. The thing is that we can spend money and solve the problems, or more accurately help the natives solve the problems, which this latest disaster will hopefully help drive; or we can patch this up until the news cameras go back to Toronto and keep spending money poorly forever.
So far we've chosen to spend money poorly, hopefully that will change now.
It's a very complex problem, or actually set of problems, Juan. It's important to remember that it took well over a century for things to get this ****ed up too...it isn't going to be fixed overnight.
The water problem being in Ontario is almost a blessing when it comes to natie problems though. If the same thing had happened in Manitoba or Saskatchewan (and it has and is), we wouldn't be talking about this right now.
It happened in the province where a bunch of white people died from bad water not all that long ago though. It also happened in the province where the press is most active. Walkerton is being mentioned in all of the news stories today. Suddenly the story isn't a bunch of natives that can be ignored until a special follow-up report can focus on the failures, it's a group of people in a small community. First Nations peoples have, at least for a little while, suddenly been humanised. It's making people squirm like hell.
We...you, me, the government, the opposition, the native groups, and this specific band...are suddenly in a position where the problem has to be solved. Not only does the problem have to solved on Kashechewan, but it has to be solved on the other reserves where it's been ignored.
Phil Fontaine is on the record as saying the Liberal government has come up with a good plan. I know a little about Fontaine and I don't put a lot of stock in what he says, but I also know that he can be a good leader when he has to be. Maybe he'll shine under the pressure. I don't think he can afford to do his usual job.
Mininster of Indian Affairs Andy Scott, oddly enough, seems to have been working very quietly to come up with long-term solutions that some say are good. We'll have to wait and see.
I talked to few people in Scott's department here and in Saskatchewan in the last couple of days. They are kind of freaked right now...afraid that they'll get the fallout. That's unfortunate because most of the people I know in the department are there because they, at some point, wanted to make a difference.
One person I talked to is almost ecstatic because he thinks this will be enough to get past the politics (federal and within the First Nations) and actually allow some real solutions to be found.
I know that you are tired of the money being spent, Juan. The thing is that we can spend money and solve the problems, or more accurately help the natives solve the problems, which this latest disaster will hopefully help drive; or we can patch this up until the news cameras go back to Toronto and keep spending money poorly forever.
So far we've chosen to spend money poorly, hopefully that will change now.
....What Rev said...
