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Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

  • Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

View Poll Results: What kind of language charter should Ontario have?
One similar to the one in the OP. 0 0%
A very different one from the one in the OP. 1 50.00%
None. 1 50.00%
Other answer. 0 0%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

Machjo
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#1Jun 5th, 2011
Considering that the cost of official bilingualism is estimated at at least 1.4 billion dollars per year, that at least some Conservative MPs (e.g. Scott Reid), many Quebec MPs (Quebec's NDP Caucus), and many members of Quebec's National Assembly (e.g. those of the Patri Quebecois) support the idea of more localized language policies (e.g. Scott Reid's proposal for territorial bilingualism and the proposal of many in Quebec to require local Federal institutions in Quebec to submit to the French Language Charter, aka Bill 101), would now not be the time for Ontario to present a proposal for a language charter of its own? One possible proposal could look something like this:
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Ontario Language Charter


1 . The Private Sector

Ontario's private sector shall be exempted from all Federal, Provincial, and local government language policies that do not involve essential services.
2. Education
2.1 Each public school shall have the freedom to teach in the language of its choice between the local indigenous language and any other language approved by the Ministry of Education of Ontario.

2.2 Any individual or organization shall be free to present a course plan for any second-language, be it a spoken, written, or signed language, whether newly-created, classical, or otherwise, to the Ministry of Education for approval based on the pedagogical soundness of the course plan and not on the language to be taught.

2.3 Each public school shall be free to teach the second-language of its choice among the languages approved by the Ministry of Education.

2.4 Each student shall be free to be tested in the second-language of his choice among the languages approved by the Ministry of Education.
3. Local government administration
Each local government shall be free to adopt the primary official language of government administration of its choice, requiring all local, provincial, and federal government agencies of a local character to provide services in that language on request, services in any additional language being strictly at the discretion of each local government office according to need.
4. Provincial government administration

The Government of Ontario shall adopt the official language of administration of its choice, requiring all Provincial and Federal government agencies of a provincial character to provide services in that language on request, services in any additional language being strictly at the discretion of each provincial office according to need.
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I'd imagine such aproposal would likely win support from many in Quebec, the current Federal NDP Caucus, and many Western Conservative MPs. Any thoughts on this?

Actually what could really be interesting about something like this is how at the Federal level, we'd likely see a pretty non-partisan division between supporters and dissenters, with mainly the NDP's Quebec Caucus and the old Reform-Party faithful supporting this, with the Liberals, some of the non-Quebec NDP Caucus, and probably many Ontario red tory conservatives opposing this.

Of course the trick would be to get the Ontario provincial government on board.
 
lone wolf
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#2

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
1.4 billion dollar per year for something that gives no value for the buck? Official Languages are already in place. Why set up more duplicity?
 
Machjo
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#3

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

1.4 billion dollar per year for something that gives no value for the buck? Official Languages are already in place. Why set up more duplicity?

The point here would be that Federal Government Offices operating in Ontario would no longer be subjected to the Official Languages Act, whereby they must provide services in both official languages regardless of demand.

The proposal above would essentially let each local government in Ontario decide the language in which government services ought to be provided, with services in any additional language being provided only in accordance to local needs, not as is the case now.

Also, consider that according to the Official Languages Act, if you produce a good that you sell only locally, you may still be required to label the pacakging in both offical languages regardless of demand. This Bill would exempt such a requirement on Ontario businesses. It would certainly save various levels of government and the private sector at least some money. Also, this would undoubtedly gain support from Quebec, which would quickly push to have Bill 101 recognized by the Federal Government in Quebed, again saving money on bilingual services where services in French only would suffice.

Add to that that this would likely lead to a domino effect across the rest of Canada too, possibly eventually saving nearly all of that 1.4 billion per year.
 
taxslave
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+2
#4  Top Rated Post

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
The whole country should only have one official language, and that would be English as it is the most common. What you speak at home or at work is your business.
No prospective immigrant shall be given landed status until they can pass an English proficiency test. This includes refugees. Schools can teach as many other languages as the local taxpayers are prepared to pay for.
My wife came here from Germany speaking better English and a better knowledge of Canada than many second generation Canadians.
 
Machjo
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#5

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

The whole country should only have one official language, and that would be English as it is the most common.

That would likely mean having to hire from elsewhere to fill government positions in the city of Baie St. Paul, not to mention that the staff would be highly incompetent in providing services to the local population in any efficient manner. Consider too that in Nunavut 15% of the population speaks neither English nor French. Canada is far more diverse than you imagine, even ignoring immigration. In fact, quite frankly immigrants are likely more competent in English and French than most native-born Canadians are.


Quote:

What you speak at home or at work is your business.

Agreed. The first article of the proposed Charter in the OP answers to that I think.

Quote:

No prospective immigrant shall be given landed status until they can pass an English proficiency test.

Even if he's immigrating to Quebec city? English isn't too highly prized in most of Quebec City's labour market except the tourism industry, and even then we'd expect him to know French to communicate with local clientelle. We need to be realistic about local expections. Even a person with complete mastery of English would have a hard time finding a job at a local McDonald's in La Malbaie without a smattering of French at least.

Quote:

Schools can teach as many other languages as the local taxpayers are prepared to pay for.

Precisely, as would be guaranteed in the OP. This would remove from the Ministry of Education the right to dictate what second language is to be taught in school, leaving it up to the local school instead.

Quote:

My wife came here from Germany speaking better English and a better knowledge of Canada than many second generation Canadians.

I'm assuming you don't live in a predominantly French-speaking town, do you?
 
taxslave
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#6

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

That would likely mean having to hire from elsewhere to fill government positions in the city of Baie St. Paul, not to mention that the staff would be highly incompetent in providing services to the local population in any efficient manner. Consider too that in Nunavut 15% of the population speaks neither English nor French. Canada is far more diverse than you imagine, even ignoring immigration. In fact, quite frankly immigrants are likely more competent in English and French than most native-born Canadians are.




Agreed. The first article of the proposed Charter in the OP answers to that I think.



Even if he's immigrating to Quebec city? English isn't too highly prized in most of Quebec City's labour market except the tourism industry, and even then we'd expect him to know French to communicate with local clientelle. We need to be realistic about local expections. Even a person with complete mastery of English would have a hard time finding a job at a local McDonald's in La Malbaie without a smattering of French at least.



Precisely, as would be guaranteed in the OP. This would remove from the Ministry of Education the right to dictate what second language is to be taught in school, leaving it up to the local school instead.



I'm assuming you don't live in a predominantly French-speaking town, do you?

I don't live in a predominantly french speaking country.
To the best of my knowledge there is only one person that speaks the quebec version of french in the area although there are a few that took enough french in school to be dangerous.
 
Machjo
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#7

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I don't live in a predominantly french speaking country.
To the best of my knowledge there is only one person that speaks the quebec version of french in the area although there are a few that took enough french in school to be dangerous.

Predominantly French-speaking country or not, most businesses would recognize the local market. Why should government not be run like a business in that respect?

And what do you mean about French being 'dangerous'? What, it allows them to avoid speeding tickets?

Actually, the idea presented in th eOP would sudeenly make it more difficult to escape speeding tickets on the basis of language since then the onus would be on the person to know the dominant local language.

And so this would allos for smaller government by no longer requiring as many translation and interpretation services. Making English compulsory nationwide would merely create a large Federal translation and interpretation bureaucracy in Quebec.

Sounds like Taxslave likes to be a slave to taxes.
 
petros
+1
#8

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Just two languages? Wow. Good luck with just english and french in Northern On.
 
Machjo
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#9

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Just two languages? Wow. Good luck with just english and french in Northern On.

What two languages?

If we left it up to local governments, then they could choose for themselves what language government should provide services in in their local community. This would mean that we would not need English-language translation of documents of an only local value. Would that not save some money?

And if I should choose to move to such a community, then the onus would be on me to learn the local language. Why should the locals bend over backwards for the newbie?
 
petros
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#10

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

What two languages?

If we left it up to local governments, then they could choose for themselves what language government should provide services in in their local community. This would mean that we would not need English-language translation of documents of an only local value. Would that not save some money?

And if I should choose to move to such a community, then the onus would be on me to learn the local language. Why should the locals bend over backwards for the newbie?

Nope. The province wil always need a copy of documents in English no matter what.
 
Machjo
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#11

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Nope. The province wil always need a copy of documents in English no matter what.

Depends. Some documents involve exclusively local issues. In that case, why waste money translating it. Should the situation change whereby it does then become of provincial or national importance, then translate it.
 
petros
#12

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Nothing is exclusively local when it comes to documents.
 
Machjo
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#13

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Nothing is exclusively local when it comes to documents.

Some are. Though you're probably right that most aren't. If that's the case, then most documents woudl still have to be translated into the official provinical languages, but if we can save money even on the translation of some documents, then so much the better. Every dollar counts after all.
 
petros
#14

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

Some are. Though you're probably right that most aren't. If that's the case, then most documents woudl still have to be translated into the official provinical languages, but if we can save money even on the translation of some documents, then so much the better. Every dollar counts after all.

Save money? There are 5 dialects of Ojib alone in ON.
 
Machjo
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#15

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Save money? There are 5 dialects of Ojibwe alone in ON.

And so in those locations where the local community is predominantly Ojibwe-speaking, the local government would be free to operate in its own language.

Now I do see a flaw here in terms of provincial and federal governments having to translate into many languages. One possible solution is to put the onlus on the local community to pay for translation costs. Of course all local governments in Canada that are English-speaking would pool their resources, perhaps by giving the Feds a certain amount of money each to translate. French-speaking communities, same, ditto for others. Obviously the larger the comnity, the larger a tax base it has to cover all the costs. Smaller langauge communities would need to make some tough decisions, possibly for example adopting a more dominant written language but the local spoken language as official. Always a way to work around it to respect the local language while cutting back on language costs.
 
petros
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#16

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

And so in those locations where the local community is predominantly Ojibwe-speaking, the local government would be free to operate in its own language.

Now I do see a flaw here in terms of provincial and federal governments having to translate into many languages. One possible solution is to put the onlus on the local community to pay for translation costs. Of course all local governments in Canada that are English-speaking would pool their resources, perhaps by giving the Feds a certain amount of money each to translate. French-speaking communities, same, ditto for others. Obviously the larger the comnity, the larger a tax base it has to cover all the costs. Smaller langauge communities would need to make some tough decisions, possibly for example adopting a more dominant written language but the local spoken language as official. Always a way to work around it to respect the local language while cutting back on language costs.

Try a jury with 12 different languages and dialects and getting it all 100% accurate in English.
 
Machjo
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#17

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Try a jury with 12 different languages and dialects and getting it all 100% accurate in English.

That's not likely to happen except in local jurisdictions, and even then we'd need the languages of only the people involved, in most cases likely only a handful of those languages.
 
petros
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#18

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
If language was open game and my lawyer didn't stack the jury box with 12 different languages I'd find me a smarter lawyer damn fast.
 
Machjo
#19

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

If language was open game and my lawyer didn't stack the jury box with 12 different languages I'd find me a smarter lawyer damn fast.

Huh?
 
petros
#20

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Exactly.
 
Machjo
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#21

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Exactly.

Of course the local court would decide based on practicality, not the lawyer based on strategy.
 
petros
#22

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
How would they decide if they don't understand each other?
 
Machjo
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#23

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

How would they decide if they don't understand each other?

That's why I'd proposed that governments would have to function in the official local language. The onus would be on the individual to know the local official language.

Besides, even now with Official Bilingualism, if an Innu doesn't know English and finds himself in Court in Ottawa or even Calgary, we will provide interpretation or other means of ensuring justice be done. So not much would change on that front. For the most part it would be a matter of reducing buraucracy in other areas of government by no longer requiring all to be translated between English and French from coast to coast to coast.

Heck, even the NDP seems to agree with more regionalized language policies:

--
 
petros
#24

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Define local?
 
Machjo
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#25

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Define local?

Documents discussing funding for a local project, or a regional infrastructure project involving local communities all of which share the same official local language. For instance, why would we need to translate documents pertaining to the building and replacing of a bridge near Tadoussac where few know English for at least a 50 mile radius?

Or why would we need to translate a report concerning the regional impact of a hydro electric project in BC into French?

Why would we need pamphlets in French in a Federal office in Calgary? Or in English in Baie St Paul?
 
petros
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#26

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Will reading up on the history of free trade, read up on the history of Europe and it's tiny little States each with their own languages or dialect. How well did that work out for them?
 
Machjo
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#27

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Will reading up on the history of free trade, read up on the history of Europe and it's tiny little States each with their own languages or dialect. How well did that work out for them?

In Europe they now have much more freedom than we do to travel and work outside their borders and trade with one another.
 
petros
#28

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
How many Europes fit into Canada?
 
Machjo
#29

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

How many Europes fit into Canada?

Population-wise, about 5 Canadas can fit into the UK alone!
 
petros
#30

Re: Do we need an "Ontario Language Charter"?

Jun 5th, 2011
Can a Welshman understand a Celtic?
 

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