Headshots

Headshots

wulfie68

#1Mar 11th, 2010

Well, as most people who follow sports know, the debate over head injuries and concussions and the steps necessary to avoid them has escalated in the past couple years, with the rising number of diagnosed concussions. The topic was discussed at the NHL GM meetings with the latest incident of Matt Cooke on Marc Savard in Pittsburgh the other night, highlighting it.

NHL GMs have now agreed that headshots should be penalized. Here's a link to the TSN coverage of the story -- and here is a quote of the statement the GMs made:

"A lateral, back pressure or blindside hit to an opponent where the head is targeted and or the principal point of contact is not permitted. A violation of the above will result in a minor or major penalty and shall be reviewed for possible supplemental discipline."

This is a subject, that as a hockey fan, is of great interest to me, but I am also of two minds on the matter. We've seen careers of players like Keith Primeau, Eric and Brett Lindros and others cut short by these types of injuries. The effects of them are largely unknown, but its beleived that the effects of these concussions are cumulative and in some cases more geometric than linear (the injury/recovery period from an additional concussion may be 3-10 times as severe as the initial one(s)). Some of my mixed feelings are echoed in this statement:

"We felt there is a degree of responsibility - moreso to the player receiving the hit - when a guy's coming straight at you. But it's that blindside hit that we find is so disturbing and it's tough to protect yourself in our game, with the speed," - NHL senior vice president of hockey operations Colin Campbell.

My concern is with the amount (or lack) of accountability placed on the puck carrier to do one of the first and most fundamental things that should be taught in minor hockey: keep your head up and protect yourself. When I think back to Eric Lindros' major incident, it was him dancing through the high slot with his head down and getting leveled by Scot Stevens with a textbook open ice hit. I saw Matt Cooke's hit on Savard the other night and from my perspective Cooke may have been a touch late (and the NHL didn't see anything violating the rules as they existed at that point), but again, Savard has his head down. Its the same with a lot of the "controversial" hits in the last couple years : guys have their heads down, admiring their shot or pass instead of being aware of whats going on around them.

I hate seeing the injuries. I hate thinking about some of the issues these guys may be facing later on in life from the effects of multiple head traumas but I am concerned that the NHL and the minor leagues are attacking a symptom rather than a cause here. I love the physical aspect of hockey: its a big part of the appeal to me as a fan and when I played.

Johnnny

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

The recent hit where savard got plowed was clearly cheap, savard had just took a shot from the blue line, he wasnt against the boards and cooke wasnt boarding him, cook raised his elbow and i will say he did it intentionally.....

He wasnt admiring his shot, he just took it and BANG

They are a part of the game, but only the meat heads think that way

Last edited by Johnnny; Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:18 AM..

Francis2004

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

Cooke has never been a nice player, even when he was in Vancouver, but he was in motion towards Savard.. If you watch this replay at the very end ( Slow Mo ), you can see he makes no effort to stop his motion but as wulfie points out Savard has his head down, not paying attention..

YouTube - Matt Cooke knocks Marc Savard out

The league has review this and judged him not to be guilty of a cheap shot.. I think after review it is a close but fair call under present rules..

It will be interesting to see if and how the league deals with further similar hits.. I am sure we have not seen the end of these..

Johnnny

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

cooke was head hunting, looking for a cheap shot and got it

Avro

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

A rule is already in place to deal with this kind of garbage and the league looked the other way.

Hopefully the GM's have solved this problem.

I'd get fighting out as well....totally pointless.

talloola

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

Cooke's hit on savard was predatory and cheap, from a repeat offender, a 4th line player, to one of the top
players on the boston team.
Campbell's decision to do nothing was 'cowardly', and they
have set up a situation where the next game between boston
and pittsburg will have to be strictly monotored, as the
players will be looking for 'payback', and I don't blame
them. This hit was 3 times worse than the hit that Moore
put on Naslund, and remember that one?
Savard is a star player, and boston is on the bubble for
making the playoffs or not, and this could not only put
him out of the game for the rest of the season, but also
end boston's season before playoffs.

Campbell could have said, thats' it, no more, we are going
to set a precedent right now to stop this, and give cooke
a lenghthy suspension, which he deserves, but no, he drivelled
a bunch of nonsense, and the new ruling will not be implemented till next season. He didn't give a suspension to richards earlier in the season for
a similar hit, so he felt he couldn't give cooke a suspension because richards
didn't get one, come on campbell, you can do better than that.

It's amazing that, when Avery said in an interview, that his
girlfriend was a 'sloppy second', the NHL immediately made
up a new rule, and slapped him with a 6 game suspension,
which I agreed with at the time, but they can't do it this
time? Give me a break.

Risus

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

There is a problem with the league when they give the referee the option of either a 2 minute or 5 minute penalty. I don't think they want to get rid of the ugliness. There was that one incident this week that they said there would be no suspension. I don't remember the player. That proves they aren't serious...

countryboy

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

I'm from the really old school...used to watch hockey when there were only 6 teams in the NHL! I grew up watching it with my Grandpa and Dad on Saturday night on an old flickering black & white TV on the prairies. It was great.

I played hockey for a while when I was really young. My pride and joy was the time I got a real Maple Leaf jersey for Christmas. At that time, I could name all the players in the league (only 6 teams!) and their numbers.

But, I eventually lost interest in it as the league expanded and when the goons began to appear. Nowadays I rarely watch it on TV, and one of the major reasons is the bashing that goes on. Don't get me wrong...I love violent, sh!t-kickin' movies and such, but for some reason I don't really care for it in hockey.

I am NOT criticizing anyone that enjoys that aspect of the game...I'm just saying that I don't really get any entertainment value out of it. If they get that new rule going on blindsiding, that would be a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

I'm just an old fart that longs for the days of Gordie Howe and much "cleaner" hockey, no head protection necessary. Yeah, I know it'll never happen but I can always reminisce...

talloola

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by countryboy

I'm from the really old school...used to watch hockey when there were only 6 teams in the NHL! I grew up watching it with my Grandpa and Dad on Saturday night on an old flickering black & white TV on the prairies. It was great.

I played hockey for a while when I was really young. My pride and joy was the time I got a real Maple Leaf jersey for Christmas. At that time, I could name all the players in the league (only 6 teams!) and their numbers.

But, I eventually lost interest in it as the league expanded and when the goons began to appear. Nowadays I rarely watch it on TV, and one of the major reasons is the bashing that goes on. Don't get me wrong...I love violent, sh!t-kickin' movies and such, but for some reason I don't really care for it in hockey.

I am NOT criticizing anyone that enjoys that aspect of the game...I'm just saying that I don't really get any entertainment value out of it. If they get that new rule going on blindsiding, that would be a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

I'm just an old fart that longs for the days of Gordie Howe and much "cleaner" hockey, no head protection necessary. Yeah, I know it'll never happen but I can always reminisce...

Gordie Howe was called 'Mr. Elbows' for obvious reasons,
cleaned out many a foe with those elbows of his, not very
kind at all.
There are no goons left in the NHL, they are all gone,
those players could not play, and actually there is one,
Booguard who plays on Minnesota, he needs to be let go,
he can't play, seems like a stupid man, and hes' huge,
and just gets a few minutes of ice each game, and causes
trouble.
I remember the days of old, when the goons were all over
the place, most couldn't play the game very well at all,
and also couldn't skate well, a player won't make the
team at all in this day and age, if they can't skate well,
because the game is so fast now, and the players mostly
are much bigger, and very talented.
Matt Cooke is a 4th line player, but he can play the game,
and is a pretty good skater, but he's a coward, always
has been, even with the canucks, he's a repeat offender,
and needs to be dealt with. I know that pittsburg team
is embarrassed by his actions, and today one of his own
teamates even said that hit should have been dealt with
by the league.

talloola

#10

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Avro

A rule is already in place to deal with this kind of garbage and the league looked the other way.

Hopefully the GM's have solved this problem.

I'd get fighting out as well....totally pointless.

actually there is no rule in place for this particular play, and even when the new rule comes in 'next' season,
it covers 'blind' hits only, but not shoulders to the head,
unless you blind side a player, or charge a player.

They still seem to think that is OK to hit a player in
the head with the shoulder, which is a huge hard cap on
a players shoulder, as hard as an elbow, not like the
shoulder pads years ago.

talloola

#11

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68

Well, as most people who follow sports know, the debate over head injuries and concussions and the steps necessary to avoid them has escalated in the past couple years, with the rising number of diagnosed concussions. The topic was discussed at the NHL GM meetings with the latest incident of Matt Cooke on Marc Savard in Pittsburgh the other night, highlighting it.
NHL GMs have now agreed that headshots should be penalized. Here's a link to the TSN coverage of the story NHL GM's recommend that head shots be penalized and here is a quote of the statement the GMs made:
"A lateral, back pressure or blindside hit to an opponent where the head is targeted and or the principal point of contact is not permitted. A violation of the above will result in a minor or major penalty and shall be reviewed for possible supplemental discipline."
This is a subject, that as a hockey fan, is of great interest to me, but I am also of two minds on the matter. We've seen careers of players like Keith Primeau, Eric and Brett Lindros and others cut short by these types of injuries. The effects of them are largely unknown, but its beleived that the effects of these concussions are cumulative and in some cases more geometric than linear (the injury/recovery period from an additional concussion may be 3-10 times as severe as the initial...
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:

Savard 'had just' shot the puck, and immediately was blind
sided by cooke, and wasn't standing there admiring his
shot either, he is too smart for that, a star player, who
is the best offensive player on the boston team, not a
rookie who would make that mistake.

Johnnny

#12

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

thats what i was saying ----^

Francis2004

#13

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

The League has never had guts to properly enforce rules.. Its been worse since Bettman has been there..

TenPenny

#14

Re: Headshots

Mar 11th, 2010

The Gordie Howe hat trick: A goal, an assist, and a fight.

cdn_bc_ca

#15

Re: Headshots

Mar 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Francis2004

Cooke has never been a nice player, even when he was in Vancouver, but he was in motion towards Savard.. If you watch this replay at the very end ( Slow Mo ), you can see he makes no effort to stop his motion but as wulfie points out Savard has his head down, not paying attention..

I don't understand. Why is it okay to give a guy a head shot simply because he was skating with his head down? I mean is it some kind of hockey mentality that if you see a player taking the puck up the ice with his head down, it's open season for head shots?

I've seen a lot of head shots on highlight reels on TV. They are brutal. Personally, I think if a player is injured by a head shot and takes 3 weeks to recover, then the player that dished out the hit should be suspended until the injured player has recovered. If the head shot was a career ending hit... then guess what? 2 careers have just ended... not 1. Of course, the manner in which the hit was issued is up for interpretation, however, from what I've seen, there are some hits that are obviously aimed at injuring the other player.

talloola

#16

Re: Headshots

Mar 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by cdn_bc_ca

I don't understand. Why is it okay to give a guy a head shot simply because he was skating with his head down? I mean is it some kind of hockey mentality that if you see a player taking the puck up the ice with his head down, it's open season for head shots?

I've seen a lot of head shots on highlight reels on TV. They are brutal. Personally, I think if a player is injured by a head shot and takes 3 weeks to recover, then the player that dished out the hit should be suspended until the injured player has recovered. If the head shot was a career ending hit... then guess what? 2 careers have just ended... not 1. Of course, the manner in which the hit was issued is up for interpretation, however, from what I've seen, there are some hits that are obviously aimed at injuring the other player.

Savard had just shot the puck, he was instantly hit blind
side by matt cooke, 'cooke targeted his head', he didn't have to
do that, could have hit him shoulder to shoulder, he had time to
make that decision, had nothing to do with savard having his head
down, that was not the case, he was paying attention, he is a very
seasoned talented player, bostons best, and he wasn't
standing around like a dope.
This shouldn't be transferred to savard, cooke did a very
dirty deed, and none of it was savard's fault, no one could
have avoided that hit, he never saw what hit him.

In boston/pittsburg game tonight, thornton got cooke as
soon as he came on the ice, made him fight, and gave him
a lesson. Not sure if they are finished with him, maybe.

Similar hit last night in a game, but was on the boards,
so he was given boarding penalty, but it was a head shot,
very dirty play, he got 8 game suspension today, similar
to what cooke should be given.
Players should 'not' need a rule to tell them to leave
each other's heads alone, they should have the respect
for their fellow player on every team, they all need
each other to play the game.
I love the hitting game, and it will always be there, but
suspend players severly for targeting the head.

Nuggler

#17

Re: Headshots

Mar 18th, 2010

The bit of hockey I watch these days (olympics excepted) reminds me a lot of the movie "Rollerball".

Great stuff.

Especially love the two handers over the head, and the blood on the ice. yay yay our team.

They'll NEVER stop it as it brings in MONEY!!!!!!!!

IDIOTS love it.

Specially in the States.

Lots of idiots there.

Many young men are going to be turned into drooling veggies in years to come and they will still be debating ..............about.................(violence)...................heavens how dreadful.

Don Cherry should be hung. Does that make me a................................pansy??

Oh golly gee, I hope not.
Yep, we're right on track now.

talloola

#18

Re: Headshots

Mar 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Nuggler

The bit of hockey I watch these days (olympics excepted) reminds me a lot of the movie "Rollerball".

Great stuff.

Especially love the two handers over the head, and the blood on the ice. yay yay our team.

They'll NEVER stop it as it brings in MONEY!!!!!!!!

IDIOTS love it.

Specially in the States.

Lots of idiots there.

Many young men are going to be turned into drooling veggies in years to come and they will still be debating ..............about.................(violence)...................heavens how dreadful.

Don Cherry should be hung. Does that make me a................................pansy?? Oh golly gee, I hope not.
Yep, we're right on track now.

Speaking of 'drooling veggies', your post is exactly that.

GO CANUCKS GO

Johnnny

#19

Re: Headshots

Mar 19th, 2010

You guys see that recent hit where the seabrook got knocked the **** out.....

I like the odd fight, but not cheap shots, what is happening to the NHL......

If anyone here thinks cheap shots are cool ****, then your a cheapshot

what is it with doe head ^players in the NHL needing to hit another players head..... Is it the lack of their own brain cells or something?

talloola

#20

Re: Headshots

Mar 19th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Johnnny

You guys see that recent hit where the seabrook got knocked the **** out.....

I like the odd fight, but not cheap shots, what is happening to the NHL......

If anyone here thinks cheap shots are cool ****, then your a cheapshot

what is it with doe head ^players in the NHL needing to hit another players head..... Is it the lack of their own brain cells or something?

yeah, they have become a problem, but now that wizneuski,(sp?) gets 8 game suspension, it seems the NHL is finally
on the right track, took them too long, and with the new
rule coming into effect soon, those cheap shots will start
disapearing, and the ones that don't will be given big
suspensions.

Before the lockout, there were many bad things happening
in hockey, bench clearing brawls, stick swinging incidents,
spearing, along with the clutching and holding, that is now
gone from the game, so we are just at another new transition
point, where the game will take another turn for the 'good'.

The players 'today' are bigger, stronger, more talented than
ever before, so the hits are harder, at a faster speed,
and when hit above the shoulders at that speed from someone
that big and that strong, someday a death will occur, so
it has to be stopped, and players shouldn't have to have
a rule to prevent them from headhunting, but apparantly
they do, so be it.

wulfie68

#21

Re: Headshots

Mar 19th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by talloola

Before the lockout, there were many bad things happening
in hockey, bench clearing brawls, stick swinging incidents, spearing, along with the clutching and holding, that is now gone from the game, so we are just at another new transition point, where the game will take another turn for the 'good'.

Talloola, I know you watch the game but this statement is largely incorrect and looks like it could come from someone who hasn't watched it in 2 decades.

Bench clearing brawls are more rare in hockey than in other professional sports. I don't remember one since the Hab-Flyer dust up in the pre-game skate in the early 90s. That's over a decade ago. The hockey establishment stepped on them hard, as they should have.

Stick swinging still happens. The really nasty two handers are more rare than they were for while but the Marty McSorley and Chris Simon type episodes have always been extremely rare and treated with the severity they deserved. Same with spearing.

The big change post-lockout has been the elimination of the clutching and grabbing, primarily in the neutral zone, but also in front of the net. One thing I think would help to get rid of some of the bad hits we see is to move to no-touch icing: do a rule that there is no race for it unless an attacker is clearly in front. The league needs to also look at the whole intent to injure section in the rulebook. Thats about all you could call on Cooke, but its hard to argue he DIDN'T mean to hurt Savard. On the other hand, Ovechkin may not have had that same intent but that doesn't let him off the hook for a hit from behind. We can say Wisniewski's hit was dirtier than Ovie's but it does show a double standard when you compare Ovechkin's suspension to Maxim Lapierre's for a similar hit (a couple weeks ago).

Risus

#22

Re: Headshots

Mar 19th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68

Talloola, I know you watch the game but this statement is largely incorrect and looks like it could come from someone who hasn't watched it in 2 decades.
Bench clearing brawls are more rare in hockey than in other professional sports. I don't remember one since the Hab-Flyer dust up in the pre-game skate in the early 90s. That's over a decade ago. The hockey establishment stepped on them hard, as they should have.
Stick swinging still happens. The really nasty two handers are more rare than they were for while but the Marty McSorley and Chris Simon type episodes have always been extremely rare and treated with the severity they deserved. Same with spearing.
The big change post-lockout has been the elimination of the clutching and grabbing, primarily in the neutral zone, but also in front of the net. One thing I think would help to get rid of some of the bad hits we see is to move to no-touch icing: do a rule that there is no race for it unless an attacker is clearly in front. The league needs to also look at the whole intent to injure section in the rulebook. Thats about all you could call on Cooke, but its hard to argue he DIDN'T mean to hurt Savard. On the other hand, Ovechkin may not have had that same intent but that doesn't let him off the hook for a hit from behind. We can say Wisniewski's hit was dirtier than Ovie's but it does show a double standard when you compare Ovechkin's suspension to Maxim Lapierre's for a...
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:

The NHL needs to get their act in order. But one point I agree with is a rule change for no touch icing.

talloola

#23

Re: Headshots

Mar 19th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by wulfie68

Talloola, I know you watch the game but this statement is largely incorrect and looks like it could come from someone who hasn't watched it in 2 decades.
Bench clearing brawls are more rare in hockey than in other professional sports. I don't remember one since the Hab-Flyer dust up in the pre-game skate in the early 90s. That's over a decade ago. The hockey establishment stepped on them hard, as they should have.
Stick swinging still happens. The really nasty two handers are more rare than they were for while but the Marty McSorley and Chris Simon type episodes have always been extremely rare and treated with the severity they deserved. Same with spearing.
The big change post-lockout has been the elimination of the clutching and grabbing, primarily in the neutral zone, but also in front of the net. One thing I think would help to get rid of some of the bad hits we see is to move to no-touch icing: do a rule that there is no race for it unless an attacker is clearly in front. The league needs to also look at the whole intent to injure section in the rulebook. Thats about all you could call on Cooke, but its hard to argue he DIDN'T mean to hurt Savard. On the other hand, Ovechkin may not have had that same intent but that doesn't let him off the hook for a hit from behind. We can say Wisniewski's hit was dirtier than Ovie's but it does show a double standard when you compare Ovechkin's suspension to Maxim Lapierre's for a...
Quote has been trimmed, See full post:

I have watched hockey for over 60 years, and haven't missed any time at all.

I do know that the bench clearing brawls were a long time
ago, and didn't mean they were 'just' prior to lock out,
just meant that since I was very young, the game has become
more 'sofisticated', and isn't being played by beer drinking
non athletic, tough guys, along with guys who are just
naturally talented. I saw my share of bench clearing brawls, coaches attacking each other, spearing isn't even
talked anymore, but used to be the sneaky but painful
way of jabbing at someone. And I don't want to see the
instigator rule taken out, as that was a crude way of
controlling the behavior. Good long suspensions will work.
Players hate to sit out, and repeat offenders should get
more and more time out.

Clutching and grabbing isn't done anywhere on the ice, and
now the game is one of speed, talent and size.
Do you realize that of all the suspensions chris simon
received, the most time any of his victims missed playing
is 'one period'.

I want to see the 'arranged' fight disappear from the game,
they are silly, and make the game take on a roller derby character.

The dirtiest hit of all was the Richards hit on Boothe,
which was the start of this mess, as campbell gave him
'nothing', then wouldn't give cooke anything because he
didn't give richards anything. Insanity.
I think Campbell should step down at the end of this
season, and someone who can make more intelligent decisions
step in and take his place.
The ruling on cooke could have been, intent to injure,
and Richards too.
But having said that, the league as a whole is improving
and we are not watching boston and philidelphia almost
kill each other in blood baths like we used to see back
in the 70's.
Most of the players are more intelligent as well as talented,
and are mentally tough, which is needed to even make it to
the NHL, in this day and age.

Iceman778

#24

Re: Headshots

Apr 4th, 2010

the player today are not stronger because they are not healthy

the opposite is true, better fitness, better diet, better training, better
skaters, bigger players, everything in todays player is better, just like
most everything else in sports, it is better now than before.

Last edited by talloola; Apr 4th, 2010 at 10:44 AM..

AnnaG

#25

Re: Headshots

Apr 4th, 2010

Les pretty much quit watching pro hockey when teams started hiring "players" as "hitmen" whose sole purpose is to bash other players rather than play hockey.

gerryh

#26

Re: Headshots

Apr 4th, 2010

so he hasn't watched hockey since at least the early to mid 70's.

AnnaG

#27

Re: Headshots

Apr 4th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Iceman778

the player today are not stronger because they are not healthy

the opposite is true, better fitness, better diet, better training, better
skaters, bigger players, everything in todays player is better, just like
most everything else in sports, it is better now than before.

Really? Then why does the list -- have so many players from decades ago?

AnnaG

#28

Re: Headshots

Apr 4th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

so he hasn't watched hockey since at least the early to mid 70's.

Something like that, yes, except for the odd game in the semis or finals.

gerryh

#29

Re: Headshots

Apr 4th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG

Something like that, yes, except for the odd game in the semis or finals.

and can it be assumed it is the same with you, or have you continued to be a fan?

wulfie68

#30

Re: Headshots

Apr 4th, 2010

Well, the day of the enforcer is pretty much passed: fights still happen but its not like the 70s and 80s where you had to have a guy like that on your bench. These days you really can't afford to have someone that can't play the game because of the salary cap issues and the way penalties (and powerplay performance) have all eliminated the effectiveness of the old Broadstreet Bully style. The bane now is guys running around hitting with abandon (a lot of which should be called charging or boarding) and a lapse in coaching that has players keeping their heads down more.

And as far that list of legends, its one person's subjective list. Its personal opinion, a lot of which will be influenced by age. And when you look at something like that honestly, it doesn't take into account the talent in the game today: there are a number of guys who are talented enough to be on that list, who will make it to the hall of fame and will be on someone else's list of all time greats 20-30 years from now.