Vancouverís safe-injection site


Unforgiven
#1
VANCOUVER ó The Supreme Court of Canada will hear arguments this week about the fate of Vancouverís safe-injection site.

Insite allows drug addicts to inject heroin under the supervision of a nurse, but the federal Conservative government wants the facility shut down.

The stakes are high because the high courtís decision will affect not only Insite, but the fate of similar sites that could open across the country.

The B.C. government says the evidence is clear ó Insite saves lives.

Supporters say it also reduces the spread of HIV and hepatitis, and curbs crime and open drug use.

The federal government rejects that evidence, arguing the facility fosters addiction and runs counter to its tough-on-crime agenda.

The court will decide whether Insite falls under the jurisdiction of the province and whether closing it violates the rights of drug addicts.
 
JLM
+3
#2  Top Rated Post
It's a two edged sword, it does save lives albeit in most cases a poor quality of life and it does reduce crime. If there was proof that this site has been successful in getting anyone to quit drugs, then I would be in favour of it. The down side is the fact the site is legal is that drug use is being condoned.
 
Unforgiven
+1
#3
Yeah reduction of crime isn't getting tough on crime that's for sure. For that matter, getting tough on crime doesn't promise any reduction in crime at all does it? We all know of course that those people addicted to drugs are the ones out there with guns they probably wouldn't sell for more drugs, shooting innocent bystanders.

There is organized crime in every province in Canada, yet there is little going on to stop that. When are the police going to go put the Hells Angels and other MC crime organizations out of business? When do they tackle huge oil corporations that violate the laws regarding the environment and making people sick from contaminating their drinking water? Don't worry I know the answer.

Double edged sword indeed. Two junkies for the price of one while real crime doesn't miss a step.
 
Cliffy
#4
Drug use has been with us since the caves, but drugs like heroine and crack are relatively new and require refining. Their use is often linked to the use of prescription drugs as many users are mental health patients (or should be). In most cases, drug use is a heath issue, not a criminal one and that the Supreme Court is even involved tells me that Harper and his cronies have no clue about the realities of this issue and are relying on knee jerk emotional responses to flawed opinions rampant among fundamentalists. Stupidity and ignorance will be our downfall and fundamentalists are leading the way.
 
Colpy
+1
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by UnforgivenView Post

Yeah reduction of crime isn't getting tough on crime that's for sure. For that matter, getting tough on crime doesn't promise any reduction in crime at all does it? We all know of course that those people addicted to drugs are the ones out there with guns they probably wouldn't sell for more drugs, shooting innocent bystanders.

There is organized crime in every province in Canada, yet there is little going on to stop that. When are the police going to go put the Hells Angels and other MC crime organizations out of business? When do they tackle huge oil corporations that violate the laws regarding the environment and making people sick from contaminating their drinking water? Don't worry I know the answer.

Double edged sword indeed. Two junkies for the price of one while real crime doesn't miss a step.

Explain, please, how in-site reduces crime......

Allowing those outside the law to break the law in safety is not reduction of crime: Insite is not reducing the robbery and prostitution or whatever other crimes are done to get the means to buy drugs.....it simply provides a place to inject drugs.

I have a problem with the removal of consequences......guess what? If you are a junkie, fool enough to inject heroin and without the backbone to kick the habit, you might overdose and wind up dead in a back alley ......or with AIDS...etc.

Those are the logical consequences.....same as if you walk off the roof of a high building, the quick stop at the bottom may be harmful.

I see no reason to try to lessen the consequence of either of those acts.

BTW, I am not particularly supportive of Harper's "tough-on-crime" agenda....especially mandatory sentencing and the war on softdrugs......but you have to admit it is damned difficult for an offender to repeat while he is behind bars.
 
Cliffy
#6
Junkies are very often mental health patients who were released from mental health facilities to fend for themselves on the streets. They started off being addicted to prescription drugs but because of lack of supervision have now fallen victim to pushers. That is one real crime that government is trying to cover up.

The other is the source of heroine - Afghanistan and one of Canada's roles over there is protecting those poppy fields that have seen production rise 100 times since occupation. That is the other real crime being covered up with this BS war on drugs and tough on crime.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120101654.html (external - login to view)

And BTW, to really reduce crime at in-sight, they should be distributing heroine and crack as well.
 
mentalfloss
#7
Good.

Lock these douchebags up and throw away the key!
 
Colpy
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Junkies are very often mental health patients who were released from mental health facilities to fend for themselves on the streets. They started off being addicted to prescription drugs but because of lack of supervision have now fallen victim to pushers. That is one real crime that government is trying to cover up.

The other is the source of heroine - Afghanistan and one of Canada's roles over there is protecting those poppy fields that have seen production rise 100 times since occupation. That is the other real crime being covered up with this BS war on drugs and tough on crime.

Afghanistan Opium Crop Sets Record - washingtonpost.com (external - login to view)

And BTW, to really reduce crime at in-sight, they should be distributing heroine and crack as well.

That actually makes more sense...........as a crime reducing strategy. But that is a sea change in government crime policy, not promoted by any party, nor defensible under the criminal law of Canada.....so it is not, and should not happen in today's Canada.

And I agree that some of the problem is those that should be in mental health facilities.

And that is a whole other topic.....
 
Cliffy
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

That actually makes more sense...........as a crime reducing strategy. But that is a sea change in government crime policy, not promoted by any party, nor defensible under the criminal law of Canada.....so it is not, and should not happen in today's Canada.

And I agree that some of the problem is those that should be in mental health facilities.

And that is a whole other topic.....

Why is another topic? To me it is the topic. Government closed down the facilities. That was a crime in itself. And now they want to shut down their only safe haven? This is not dealing with crime, it is escalating it. Harper is just looking for inmates for his new mega-prisons. In this case it should be Harper and the neo-cons housed in his new facilities.
 
Colpy
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Why is another topic? To me it is the topic. Government closed down the facilities. That was a crime in itself. And now they want to shut down their only safe haven? This is not dealing with crime, it is escalating it. Harper is just looking for inmates for his new mega-prisons. In this case it should be Harper and the neo-cons housed in his new facilities.

Now be nice......



Mental health facilities were shut doewn by PROVINCIAL authorities.......
 
mentalfloss
#11
The mandatory..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1Cv...eature=related (external - login to view)
 
Unforgiven
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Explain, please, how in-site reduces crime......

Curbs crime.

Quote:

Allowing those outside the law to break the law in safety is not reduction of crime: Insite is not reducing the robbery and prostitution or whatever other crimes are done to get the means to buy drugs.....it simply provides a place to inject drugs.

Correct.

Quote:

I have a problem with the removal of consequences......guess what? If you are a junkie, fool enough to inject heroin and without the backbone to kick the habit, you might overdose and wind up dead in a back alley ......or with AIDS...etc.

So you're for people getting AIDS and overdosing? Nice.

Quote:

Those are the logical consequences.....same as if you walk off the roof of a high building, the quick stop at the bottom may be harmful.

Ridiculous.

Quote:

I see no reason to try to lessen the consequence of either of those acts.

Which is why you put the face to heartless conservative. It's funny how you want less and less right up until you need it then it's a right you demand.

Quote:

BTW, I am not particularly supportive of Harper's "tough-on-crime" agenda....especially mandatory sentencing and the war on softdrugs......but you have to admit it is damned difficult for an offender to repeat while he is behind bars.

You know nothing about the prison system. If you did you would know there is plenty of drugs available in prison.
You're fooling no one, this is nothing more than a shot at me over my position on gun control.

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Good.

Lock these douchebags up and throw away the key!

They have to be otherwise we're spending all that money on prison for nothing. Not like those really dangerous violent offenders are going to jail. Cops don't like going after them because those ****ers shoot at ya.
 
mentalfloss
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by UnforgivenView Post

They have to be otherwise we're spending all that money on prison for nothing. Not like those really dangerous violent offenders are going to jail. Cops don't like going after them because those ****ers shoot at ya.

We just gave cops a huge raise in Toronto that will cost us $30 million. It's all part of the conservative budget to save us money and keep us safe.
 
Cliffy
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Now be nice......



Mental health facilities were shut doewn by PROVINCIAL authorities.......

Perhaps the feds cutting back on transfer payments had something to do with it.
 
petros
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Now be nice......



Mental health facilities were shut doewn by PROVINCIAL authorities.......

After heavy cuts from the FEDS.
 
Unforgiven
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

We just gave cops a huge raise in Toronto that will cost us $30 million. It's all part of the conservative budget to save us money and keep us safe.

Nope that was a sucker move by a mayor with no experience running a city. Not that it has anything to do with the topic, but wait til he gets in front of the big unions and they use it against him and the city walks away from the table. Strikes will soon come after, the people will get pissed and the mayor will have fun getting reelected.
 
mentalfloss
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by UnforgivenView Post

Nope that was a sucker move by a mayor with no experience running a city. Not that it has anything to do with the topic, but wait til he gets in front of the big unions and they use it against him and the city walks away from the table. Strikes will soon come after, the people will get pissed and the mayor will have fun getting reelected.

But think of the tax breaks he will promise the next time!

RESPECT FOR TAX PAYERS TO THE POWER OF 3 MOTHER ****ERS! wooooohoooo!!!
 
Unforgiven
#18
Bottom line is that the poor and those unable to defend themselves are going to be used to justify some imaginary get tough on crime scheme that has been used by politicians as a fear mongering election tactic for decades. Sadly it usually works when there is an imbalance of power in government.

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

But think of the tax breaks he will promise the next time!

RESPECT FOR TAX PAYERS TO THE POWER OF 3 MOTHER ****ERS! wooooohoooo!!!

Except that it will cost more.
 
Colpy
#19
Quote:

Unforgiven;1424308]Curbs crime.



Correct.



So you're for people getting AIDS and overdosing? Nice.



Ridiculous.

Well, so far you have said absolutely nothing, and refused to support your own contention that Insite "curbs" crime...... HOW???

Quote:

Unforgiven Which is why you put the face to heartless conservative. It's funny how you want less and less right up until you need it then it's a right you demand.

Ah....we have rights.....we don't have a right to a safe place to violate the law.....Geez, that's ridiculous!


Quote:

Unforgiven: You know nothing about the prison system. If you did you would know there is plenty of drugs available in prison.
You're fooling no one, this is nothing more than a shot at me over my position on gun control.

I wasn't talking specifically about drugs, I know there are lots of drugs in prison......I was responding to this bit of inanity "
getting tough on crime doesn't promise any reduction in crime at all does it?" And no, I had not spared a thought to your position on gun control....to quote Anne McLellan "That debate is over"


Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

We just gave cops a huge raise in Toronto that will cost us $30 million. It's all part of the conservative budget to save us money and keep us safe.

Ahhh....that would be the government of Rob Ford............nothing to do with the Conservative Party of Canada or Harper....

You're losing it....
 
petros
+2
#20
Canada has a real opportunity here. Jack Lenin has alwasy been pro-pot legalization. If revenues generated from cannabis were ear marked for harm reduction of hard drugs we wouldn't need bigger prisons or be looking for tax cuts.

It's time to get on the horn and actually talk to your MP about things that make sense and will actually work.
 
JLM
#21
[QUOTE=Unforgiven;


So you're for people getting AIDS and overdosing? Nice.



.[/QUOTE]

Isn't that just another aspect of survival of the fittest?
 
mentalfloss
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Ahhh....that would be the government of Rob Ford............nothing to do with the Conservative Party of Canada or Harper....

You're losing it....

From a political slant, Toronto is basically a microcosm of Canada now. If you want a vision of the future, you should look here - many of the blunders are the same.
 
petros
#23
And a BIG BTW......90% of what is poked into the arm by opiate junkies was bought and paid for by you already through pharma programs.


Just buy them the powder for **** sakes.
 
Cliffy
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

And a BIG BTW......90% of what is poked into the arm by opiate junkies was bought and paid for by you already through pharma programs.


Just buy them the powder for **** sakes.

Either that or just shoot all the junkies and mentally ill. Then we don't have to listen to those who don't have a clue as to what is really going on.
 
petros
#25
I'm all for that. Can I set the bar?
 
Unforgiven
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Well, so far you have said absolutely nothing, and refused to support your own contention that Insite "curbs" crime...... HOW???

Well usually no one needs to have their hand held while the basics are explained to them. I understand you're inability to do your own research so I will take the time to explain it to you here so you don't have to go through all the effort on your own.

First when you remove the user from shooting up in the street you also remove some of the stigma from the area and reduce the litter left from injecting drugs.

Next while a user begins to access Incite, they start to form bonds with workers there. These workers become trusted and their advice is taken when they are there at the right moment and a user decides to attempt to move into recovery. Facilities are available as well as help access other social services. Every meal a user gets is a meal they don't have to go steal. When there is a home to live in, money doesn't need to be stolen for rent.

As a user moves into rehabilitation the crime associated with their addiction ends and they work toward becoming stable.

618 people have been referred to withdrawal management.

Quote:

Ah....we have rights.....we don't have a right to a safe place to violate the law.....Geez, that's ridiculous!

You don't understand the concept of harm reduction so what's the point of refuting this? Why do bars have parking lots Colpy?

Quote:

I wasn't talking specifically about drugs, I know there are lots of drugs in prison......I was responding to this bit of inanity "

getting tough on crime doesn't promise any reduction in crime at all does it?" And no, I had not spared a thought to your position on gun control....to quote Anne McLellan "That debate is over"

So you were talking about what? Cheque fraud? Insider trading?

The gun control debate isn't over, we're just going to stop talking about it for a few years and when a real government of the people returns to Ottawa, we'll strike that discussion up again and work at reigning in the lawless gun culture.

Quote:

Ahhh....that would be the government of Rob Ford............nothing to do with the Conservative Party of Canada or Harper....

You're losing it....

Yeah I didn't bring it up, I responded to it. Just try and stay with the tour alright.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Isn't that just another aspect of survival of the fittest?

Nope. You shouldn't play with concepts you are unable to understand.
 
petros
+1
#27
Have you ever tried to convince a Green Party member to quit smoking up because indoor cannabis is extremely bad for the environment?

It's the same as trying to squeeze a nickel out a Conservative so he can save a dollar.
 
Colpy
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by UnforgivenView Post

Well usually no one needs to have their hand held while the basics are explained to them. I understand you're inability to do your own research so I will take the time to explain it to you here so you don't have to go through all the effort on your own.

First when you remove the user from shooting up in the street you also remove some of the stigma from the area and reduce the litter left from injecting drugs.

Next while a user begins to access Incite, they start to form bonds with workers there. These workers become trusted and their advice is taken when they are there at the right moment and a user decides to attempt to move into recovery. Facilities are available as well as help access other social services. Every meal a user gets is a meal they don't have to go steal. When there is a home to live in, money doesn't need to be stolen for rent.

As a user moves into rehabilitation the crime associated with their addiction ends and they work toward becoming stable.

618 people have been referred to withdrawal management.


The gun control debate isn't over, we're just going to stop talking about it for a few years and when a real government of the people returns to Ottawa, we'll strike that discussion up again and work at reigning in the lawless gun culture.



.

Now that is a decent answer! But answer this.......why can't counseling be offered with food and a bed and free needles....WITHOUT the actual permission to shoot up on site???

As for gun control.....good luck coming back in four years and telling the voters you will re-invent the registry.....at a brand-new bargain basement cost of $2 BILLION dollars....... for no gain.

It's dead. Deal with it.
 
petros
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Now that is a decent answer! But answer this.......why can't counseling be offered with food and a bed and free needles....WITHOUT the actual permission to shoot up on site???

Who the **** is going to show up? There are no beds or free food at Insite. They go there voluntarily because it is safe and it is clean.

Why do you insist on argueing over thing you have no clue about.

Go volunteer on your local govt funded needle exchange van sometime and learn something and more importantly be somebody for someone else.
 
Tonington
+1
#30
Supervised injection facilities don't have a crime reduction rate as a goal, the goal is to reduce public harm, which study after study has found it does very well. Drug users aren't a separate population without ties to the non-drug users in their community. So attempts to address this source of public harm have very real impacts on those who are not drug users, but live within the same geographic regions...

This program has lead to increased use of detox services, reduced public injections, reduced drug associated litter, including used syringes, and reduced sharing of syringes. That has coincided with reductions in disease transmission, and ultimately reduced cost to an already burdened health care system. All without increases in drug dealers within the vicinity of the clinic, with no increase to drug related crime in the area, and with no increases in relapse amongst the addicts treated.

Another added benefit, is the coordination between law enforcement and public health. When policing goals and public health needs are aligned, as in the case of supervised injection facilities, the conflict between public order and health initiatives is reduced. A clear example in this case is the reduction of HIV transmission.

The evidence is quite clear, and the benefits clearly outweigh the costs.

Some academic reading for anyone who cares about the facts:
Summary of findings from the evaluation of a pilot medically supervised safer injecting facility -- Wood et al. 175 (11): 1399 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal (external - login to view)
Substance Abuse Treatment, Prevention, and Policy | Full text | Police and public health partnerships: Evidence from the evaluation of Vancouver's supervised injection facility (external - login to view)
 

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