U.S. Justice System more just?

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
I just heard on the news that if you are arrested in Canada, you have a right to call a lawyer ONCE before being questioned but aren't allowed to have a lawyer present while being questioned unlike your Miranda rights in the U.S.
 

GreenFish66

House Member
Apr 16, 2008
2,717
10
38
www.myspace.com
No such thing as a justice system ..It's more a Legal system ..No matter what country your from .Unless you can afford a Good Liar, I mean Lawyer, have some close friends in high places, and a good grasp on all that mind numbing leagleese ..Then The U.S. model is better...Canada's legal system is better only when you gots no $Money$.....No 1 to call...When there's just No other Choice you are given but guilty..Who ya gonna call?..The Justice Supreme ?.Joe Brown , Judge Judy ?...Guilty Untill proven innocent...America has a better legal system than all other countries though ...More choice ..1. Lethal,.2.Gas..3..Electric..SOoooo ...I guess you could say "America" has a more "JUST" Legal system . .(.?? :))
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
No such thing as a justice system ..It's more a Legal system ..No matter what country your from .Unless you can afford a Good Liar, I mean Lawyer, have some close friends in high places, and a good grasp on all that mind numbing leagleese ..Then The U.S. model is better...Canada's legal system is better only when you gots no $Money$.....No 1 to call...When there's just No other Choice you are given but guilty..Who ya gonna call?..The Justice Supreme ?.Joe Brown , Judge Judy ?...Guilty Untill proven innocent...America has a better legal system than all other countries though ...More choice ..1. Lethal,.2.Gas..3..Electric..SOoooo ...I guess you could say "America" has a more "JUST" Legal system . .(.?? :))

And in some states shooting and hanging- very diplomatic.
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
140
63
Backwater, Ontario.
You do have the right to a phone call to a shyster, then, the right to remain silent during torture. If you don't break during the fingernail pulling and the wires to the genitals, you can speak with a lawyer through your broken teeth, when the police officers are done with you. IF you can walk back ten miles through the snow, without shoes, and you have 50 cents for the pay phone at the local Macs....................IF they let you in..............cause you look like a homeless person what with no shoes an all........and it bein the day before Christmas.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Lots of lawyer basing here.

What will any of you do when you REALLY need one?

Did you mean lawyer "bashing"? I have no problems with lawyers helping people who really need it? What I have a problem is lawyers who look for loop holes to get slime acquitted.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
73
48
Winnipeg
Yeah, JLM, in my haste to make my point, I DID omit the "H".

And much as hate to admit it, the alleged "slime" deserves protection until they are convicted and proven to be "slime".

Sadly, some lawyers think and live by "the end justifies the means".
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Yeah, JLM, in my haste to make my point, I DID omit the "H".

And much as hate to admit it, the alleged "slime" deserves protection until they are convicted and proven to be "slime".

Sadly, some lawyers think and live by "the end justifies the means".

Right on. A lawyer's involvement should be limited to seeing the slime gets a fair trial and that should be the end of it. :smile:
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
I just heard on the news that if you are arrested in Canada, you have a right to call a lawyer ONCE before being questioned but aren't allowed to have a lawyer present while being questioned unlike your Miranda rights in the U.S.

It would be interesting to hear all the details about this because it doesn't sound right. You have the right to retain and instruct counsel without delay once arrested. Even still, you are not required to give evidence against yourself if you are a suspect, and if you aren't a suspect any evidence you give cannot be held against you. True, we don't have the same Miranda rights as the US, and as such even if you "lawyer up", the police can and probably will still question you until your counsel arrives. The right to remain silent is still in effect but most convictions come from those who fail to exercise this right.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
I have no problems with lawyers helping people who really need it? What I have a problem is lawyers who look for loop holes to get slime acquitted.

We all have the right to equal treatment under the law, once we start making laws or exceptions based on one's lot in life we are asking for trouble, (oops, I guess we've already started doing that, no wonder our justice system is whacky). Anyway, it is not always slime that gets aquitted by a "loophole". I've known cases where evidence was thrown out because a search warrant was invalid or a search was conducted beyond the scope of the warrant. In one bizarre case a nighttime raid was conducted on a rural home, it was a dynamic entry and all occupants, including children were held face down at gunpoint. During the search an old unregistered rifle was found and the homeowner was charged with firearms offences, even though the police had raided the wrong house. I don't know the eventual outcome but I heard the case got tossed and the rifle returned after much legal wrangling. Such gross violations of rights do happen to law abiding folk, laws that protect the criminals are there to also protect us, and sometimes it takes a lawyer to find where our rights have been violated.

Sadly, some lawyers think and live by "the end justifies the means".

If you ever end up on the wrong end of the law that is exactly the type of counsel you want. As I said previously, bad things can happen to good folk and the law doesn't recognise either good or bad folk, (that's why Justicia is blindfolded). Our justice system is not based on guilt or innocence but by who best presents their case. This was made abundantly clear by then Justice Minister Kim Campbell during a scrum when accosted by Joyce Milgaard, and broadcast by CBC and CTV.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
We all have the right to equal treatment under the law, once we start making laws or exceptions based on one's lot in life we are asking for trouble, (oops, I guess we've already started doing that, no wonder our justice system is whacky). Anyway, it is not always slime that gets aquitted by a "loophole". I've known cases where evidence was thrown out because a search warrant was invalid or a search was conducted beyond the scope of the warrant. In one bizarre case a nighttime raid was conducted on a rural home, it was a dynamic entry and all occupants, including children were held face down at gunpoint. During the search an old unregistered rifle was found and the homeowner was charged with firearms offences, even though the police had raided the wrong house. I don't know the eventual outcome but I heard the case got tossed and the rifle returned after much legal wrangling. Such gross violations of rights do happen to law abiding folk, laws that protect the criminals are there to also protect us, and sometimes it takes a lawyer to find where our rights have been violated.

Your points are definitely valid. :smile:
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
It would be interesting to hear all the details about this because it doesn't sound right. You have the right to retain and instruct counsel without delay once arrested.

What the court said is that you do not have the right to insist that your lawyer be present during questioning. In the US, as soon as a suspect says 'I want my lawyer', the cops are not permitted to do any more questioning until the lawyer is there. Not the case in Canada, they can keep questioning you.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
What the court said is that you do not have the right to insist that your lawyer be present during questioning. In the US, as soon as a suspect says 'I want my lawyer', the cops are not permitted to do any more questioning until the lawyer is there. Not the case in Canada, they can keep questioning you.


and, as a suspect, you can just sit there with your mouth shut untill you see a lawyer.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
Exactly. The absolute best thing is to keep quiet. Don't answer any questions.

But people have a hard time doing that.

Usually it is the honest folks who have a hard time with that. They may have made an honest mistake and hope their cooperation will garner leniency. Police know this and work on it, their job is to get evidence leading to a conviction through confession, it makes everyone's job a lot easier, and may land an honest person in a world of hurt that can last a lifetime. Investigating officers don't care, they are just part of the justice machine and any conviction is a good conviction. Experienced criminals already know the drill, their lives are screwed anyway so they know to sit tight until their counsel can bargain down their punishment.

What the court said is that you do not have the right to insist that your lawyer be present during questioning. In the US, as soon as a suspect says 'I want my lawyer', the cops are not permitted to do any more questioning until the lawyer is there. Not the case in Canada, they can keep questioning you.

Yes they can, and do, but they cannot restrict or deny your access to counsel without risking an aquittal, or worse, the Crown may refuse to proceed with charges at all, knowing a suspect's rights have been violated. Judges have severely chastized investigating officers and Crown Counsel in open court for such breaches of rights. It did happen to a friend of mine whose rights were violated, the arresting officer had the good sense not to show, the Crown counsel wasn't so lucky and didn't escape the judge's wrath. The judge suggested charges of unlawful confinement and malicious prosecution could be persued had my friend wished to proceed, but he declined.

Oh, and this was a case of a tennant trying to avoid paying rent by using false accusations, which both the Crown and police were suspected of having knowledge of.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
It has nothing to do with honest folks will answer and the
guilty won't. In Canada you have a right to a lawyer if you
wait long enough and be quiet and respectful. Why be
respectful. So it can't be used against you later, that's why.
In the USA, you are entitled to all kinds of protection yet the
jails and prisons are full of innocent people and the rate is
probably higher in America than here.
The over all problem I see is that the courts have now
defined what rights you do and do not have. That is a bit
troubling because when nations start doing that they tend
to be on a path of taking some rights away within the over
all definition. I think we could be heading that way here, not
for the purpose of combating crime, but to bring them in line
with terrorism laws. We are leaning ever closer to combining
the two. They used to call that the War Measures Act if you
get what I mean.