A 1915 Rifle In Taliban Gun Locker? Typical

dumpthemonarchy

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A Look at Weapons Confiscated From the Taliban - NYTimes.com

September 15, 2010, 12:44 pm
What’s Inside a Taliban Gun Locker?

By C.J. CHIVERS
C.J. Chivers Taliban equipment confiscated from caches or collected after firefights.

Since last year, The New York Times and At War have taken several different looks at insurgent arms and munitions in Afghanistan, which can yield information about how insurgents equip themselves and fight, and how the Taliban has been able to maintain itself as a viable force for more than 15 years.
The New York Times

Today the blog will turn back to this pursuit with another sampling of data from Marja, the area in Helmand Province that has seen some of the most sustained insurgent fighting of 2010. In this case, early this summer, the civilian law enforcement liaison working with the Marines of Third Battalion, Sixth Marines, along with the battalion’s gunner, had in their custody 26 firearms and an RPG-7 launcher captured from Taliban fighters or collected from caches.


Of these weapons, 12 were variants of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, 8 were bolt-action rifles from World War II or earlier, 4 were variants of the PK machine gun, and 2 were small semiautomatic pistols. This was in some ways a typical mix for Afghanistan, although the ratio of bolt-action rifles was higher than what many units outside of Helmand Province have seen.

The ratio is interesting and aligns with the experience of patrolling in and near Marja and other contested areas nearby. Insurgents in Helmand Province seem to have used bolt-action rifles more than in many regions of Afghanistan. Whether this indicates a pressure on the supply of assault rifles and their ammunition or a preference for the longer effective ranges of Lee-Enfield and Mosin-Nagant rifles is not clear. But the longer range of bolt-action rifles compared with assault rifles, and their relative abundance in Helmand Province, is a reason this particular acreage of Afghanistan has a reputation as being plagued by a more dangerous set of Afghan marksmen, and even a few snipers, as seen in this video. For those who have been under fire in Helmand, finding that a large fraction of captured rifles are Lee-Enfields or Mosin-Nagants is not surprising. This battalion’s battlefield collections fit its Marines’ experiences on patrol.

Moving past these ratios, the characteristics of individual weapons also provided clues to the Taliban’s behavior and state of equipment and supply, and to the nature of the infantry arms loose in the Afghan countryside. Note the stock of one of the machine guns, below.

C.J. Chivers for The New York Times A machine gun with a cracked stock and a jury-rigged repair.

As was typical of many older PK-variant machine guns, the stock was made of laminated wood — plywood, essentially. And some time ago it had been snapped. But whoever was responsible for it had cobbled it back in place with the help of two strips of sheet metal and a handful of light nails. There was still play in the stock, and this would undermine its accuracy. But the weapon could be used.

Does this say something of the insurgents’ resourcefulness? Or of the insurgency’s limited means? Maybe both.

Now look at this assault rifle, below, an original AK-47 with a solid steel receiver. Its date and factory stampings reveal that it had been manufactured in 1954 in the Soviet Union’s main Kalashnikov plant at the mammoth gunworks at Izhevsk.
C.J. Chivers An AK-47 assault rifle; pitted, weathered, stock removed, but still functional.
Look at it closely. Its exterior is heavily pitted and corroded. I disassembled this rifle, and inside, where it most counts, its operating system — the integrated gas piston and bolt carrier, the trigger assembly, etc. — had been oiled and were only lightly pitted. Someone had been tending to its guts, if not its skin.

In Marja, which is a populated patch of steppe astride a huge irrigation works built decades ago by the United States, the Marines sometimes find weapons hidden in canals. This weapon could have been submerged for some time before being retrieved for use, and considering what it seems to have been through, that 1954 manufacturing stamp impresses. The weapon, a rifle that came off assembly lines a year after Stalin died, was fully functional at age 56 and was still in service this year in war against the West.

Does that seem old? Now look at the date stamps on one of the bolt-action Lee-Enfields, below.
C.J. Chivers The factory stampings on a Lee-Enfield bolt-action rifle. Made by the Crown, in Taliban service now.

You read that right: 1915.

This rifle was made while Kitchener’s New Army was being drilled and sent to the
Western Front. It was 95 years old when it changed hands once again, and ended up in the custody of the Marines.

The paired Lee-Enfields and Kalashnikovs in Marja say as much about the nature of these weapons, and their ammunition, as they do about the Taliban. The Lee-Enfield and Kalashnikov lines were made by the millions, and both are noted for reliability and durability. These two facts have made them, in the eyes of people who carry or face them in war after war, either remarkable tools or a scourge.
And along with the Mosin-Nagant rifles that also turn up in Taliban caches, they and their ammunition are markers of old empires and the standardization of cartridges that accompanied war in the 20th century. That leads to the next point: Cartridge standardization between units and among allies — meaning, fielding many weapons that all fire the same ammunition — was intended to make logistics less complicated for conventional armies and their nations.

It has been a boon for insurgents, too.
For the 24 rifles and machine guns in the locker, produced in multiple nations over many decades, only three types of cartridges are required to feed them — the Lee-Enfields fire the .303, the Kalashnikovs fire the 7.62×39-millimeter round, and the PK machine guns and Mosin-Nagant fire the 7.62×54R round that has been issued to Slavic forces since the 1890s in Imperial Russia.

All of these facts and factors might seem arcane. They are not.

Together the technical qualities of these rifles and the thinking behind them, along with the quality of their manufacture and the relative simplicity of their ammunition resupply, have helped a largely illiterate insurgent movement not just to exert its will on its own country, but also to stand up to the most sophisticated military in the world.
 

Colpy

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A Look at Weapons Confiscated From the Taliban - NYTimes.com

September 15, 2010, 12:44 pm
What’s Inside a Taliban Gun Locker?

By C.J. CHIVERS
C.J. Chivers Taliban equipment confiscated from caches or collected after firefights.

Since last year, The New York Times and At War have taken several different looks at insurgent arms and munitions in Afghanistan, which can yield information about how insurgents equip themselves and fight, and how the Taliban has been able to maintain itself as a viable force for more than 15 years.
The New York Times

Today the blog will turn back to this pursuit with another sampling of data from Marja, the area in Helmand Province that has seen some of the most sustained insurgent fighting of 2010. In this case, early this summer, the civilian law enforcement liaison working with the Marines of Third Battalion, Sixth Marines, along with the battalion’s gunner, had in their custody 26 firearms and an RPG-7 launcher captured from Taliban fighters or collected from caches.


Of these weapons, 12 were variants of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, 8 were bolt-action rifles from World War II or earlier, 4 were variants of the PK machine gun, and 2 were small semiautomatic pistols. This was in some ways a typical mix for Afghanistan, although the ratio of bolt-action rifles was higher than what many units outside of Helmand Province have seen.

The ratio is interesting and aligns with the experience of patrolling in and near Marja and other contested areas nearby. Insurgents in Helmand Province seem to have used bolt-action rifles more than in many regions of Afghanistan. Whether this indicates a pressure on the supply of assault rifles and their ammunition or a preference for the longer effective ranges of Lee-Enfield and Mosin-Nagant rifles is not clear. But the longer range of bolt-action rifles compared with assault rifles, and their relative abundance in Helmand Province, is a reason this particular acreage of Afghanistan has a reputation as being plagued by a more dangerous set of Afghan marksmen, and even a few snipers, as seen in this video. For those who have been under fire in Helmand, finding that a large fraction of captured rifles are Lee-Enfields or Mosin-Nagants is not surprising. This battalion’s battlefield collections fit its Marines’ experiences on patrol.

Moving past these ratios, the characteristics of individual weapons also provided clues to the Taliban’s behavior and state of equipment and supply, and to the nature of the infantry arms loose in the Afghan countryside. Note the stock of one of the machine guns, below.

C.J. Chivers for The New York Times A machine gun with a cracked stock and a jury-rigged repair.

As was typical of many older PK-variant machine guns, the stock was made of laminated wood — plywood, essentially. And some time ago it had been snapped. But whoever was responsible for it had cobbled it back in place with the help of two strips of sheet metal and a handful of light nails. There was still play in the stock, and this would undermine its accuracy. But the weapon could be used.

Does this say something of the insurgents’ resourcefulness? Or of the insurgency’s limited means? Maybe both.

Now look at this assault rifle, below, an original AK-47 with a solid steel receiver. Its date and factory stampings reveal that it had been manufactured in 1954 in the Soviet Union’s main Kalashnikov plant at the mammoth gunworks at Izhevsk.
C.J. Chivers An AK-47 assault rifle; pitted, weathered, stock removed, but still functional.
Look at it closely. Its exterior is heavily pitted and corroded. I disassembled this rifle, and inside, where it most counts, its operating system — the integrated gas piston and bolt carrier, the trigger assembly, etc. — had been oiled and were only lightly pitted. Someone had been tending to its guts, if not its skin.

In Marja, which is a populated patch of steppe astride a huge irrigation works built decades ago by the United States, the Marines sometimes find weapons hidden in canals. This weapon could have been submerged for some time before being retrieved for use, and considering what it seems to have been through, that 1954 manufacturing stamp impresses. The weapon, a rifle that came off assembly lines a year after Stalin died, was fully functional at age 56 and was still in service this year in war against the West.

Does that seem old? Now look at the date stamps on one of the bolt-action Lee-Enfields, below.
C.J. Chivers The factory stampings on a Lee-Enfield bolt-action rifle. Made by the Crown, in Taliban service now.

You read that right: 1915.

This rifle was made while Kitchener’s New Army was being drilled and sent to the
Western Front. It was 95 years old when it changed hands once again, and ended up in the custody of the Marines.

The paired Lee-Enfields and Kalashnikovs in Marja say as much about the nature of these weapons, and their ammunition, as they do about the Taliban. The Lee-Enfield and Kalashnikov lines were made by the millions, and both are noted for reliability and durability. These two facts have made them, in the eyes of people who carry or face them in war after war, either remarkable tools or a scourge.
And along with the Mosin-Nagant rifles that also turn up in Taliban caches, they and their ammunition are markers of old empires and the standardization of cartridges that accompanied war in the 20th century. That leads to the next point: Cartridge standardization between units and among allies — meaning, fielding many weapons that all fire the same ammunition — was intended to make logistics less complicated for conventional armies and their nations.

It has been a boon for insurgents, too.
For the 24 rifles and machine guns in the locker, produced in multiple nations over many decades, only three types of cartridges are required to feed them — the Lee-Enfields fire the .303, the Kalashnikovs fire the 7.62×39-millimeter round, and the PK machine guns and Mosin-Nagant fire the 7.62×54R round that has been issued to Slavic forces since the 1890s in Imperial Russia.

All of these facts and factors might seem arcane. They are not.

Together the technical qualities of these rifles and the thinking behind them, along with the quality of their manufacture and the relative simplicity of their ammunition resupply, have helped a largely illiterate insurgent movement not just to exert its will on its own country, but also to stand up to the most sophisticated military in the world.


Absolutely no surprise whatsoever.

Back in the bad old days, when the tribes of Afghanistan were our friends and fighting the old Soviet Union, often guerillas would arrive in the gun-trading towns of Pakistan absolutely festooned with the latest AK 47 and AK 74 rifles taken from dead Russian soldiers.....and they were eager to trade them......for ammunition for their No. I, Mk III SMLE .303 British rifles of WW I and WW II vintage....many of them home made!!!!!

The reason?

Ever see pictures of Afghanistan? It is a moonscape, long open areas, mountainous, the place where the two longest sniper shots on earth were made.

The (7.62 x 39mm) round for the full auto AK 47 fires a .312" diameter 123 grain bullet at 2400 feet per second. The round is severely underpowered for shooting at long range. The rifle has atrocious sights, and is not particularly accurate...........

The (5.45 x 39mm) round for the full auto AK 74 fires a .223" diameter 56 grain bullet at 2900 feet per second. It is a slight improvement over the older AK 47 round, but not by much......and the sights still suck.

The .303 British round fired from the old bolt action No. I Mk III SMLE is a .311" diameter 174 grain bullet at over 2500 feet per second. It is an accurate rifle, with fine sights regulated out to a VERY optimistic 1800 yards.......intended for massed volley fire at that range. Suffice to say if you are firing at a target 700 yards away across a valley, common in Afghanistan........the SMLE is the piece to have.

One round that hits is more valuable than 1,0000 misses.
 

bill barilko

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My Dad owned a Lee Enfield 303-used it as a Moose hunting rifle-generally one shot was all it took.

If they sold for less than $20 here in Canada in the 60's when he bought it from Sidney I Robinson in Winnipeg think how cheap they were in other countries.
 

dumpthemonarchy

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Don't anyone forget, these people are a huge danger to us. In the poorest country on the planet.

But it seems like Obama is ending wars. Iraq first, and Afghan has a deadline. Fantastic, really.

For these people, there's no declaring victory and going home, so they fight with whatever they can. It seems like pure market forces at work.
 

Praxius

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Not surprising at all.... to put it simply, they don't make them like they used to.

Keep in mind that the German forces in WWII relied heavily on the Karabiner 98 Kurz.... which was an upgrade from the Gewehr 98, which was developed back in 1898, which was used up until 1935 when they replaced it with the K98. It had an effective range of around 500 metres with iron sights.... even better scoped..... though the upgrades were minor, they were very effective in making a very deadly, very accurate rifle for combat use in an era where rapid fire weapons seemed to be taking over. The Enfield, which I used a few years ago and was what I used for training in operating a firearm, along with the russian Mosin-Nagant were also very reliable and very effective..... it's no surprise they'd still be seeing combat today.

I've been saying it for a while now..... it's not how pretty or how advanced or how expensive your weapon is you bring into combat..... it's how you use it.

So long as something can fire a bullet in the general area you're aiming without blowing up in your face, that weapon is useful and that weapon is a threat to your target.
 
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wulfie68

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Don't anyone forget, these people are a huge danger to us. In the poorest country on the planet.

Well first off they are not the poorest. One of them, yes, but not as bad as Burundi or the Congo, as you can find out by googling and checking various sites. Stop overstating things: it detracts from your credibility. As well, they have shown that while most of Afghanistan is not dangerous to the outside world as long as we leave them alone, the fact that Afghanistan is willing provide refuge to groups that can and will strike in other countries, be it the US, Bali, Spain or others does threaten our security.

But it seems like Obama is ending wars. Iraq first, and Afghan has a deadline. Fantastic, really.

For these people, there's no declaring victory and going home, so they fight with whatever they can. It seems like pure market forces at work.

OK is this all a poor attempt at sarcasm? I mean Obama has wound down major combat operations in Iraq as the US has tried to hand more power over to the existing Iraqi gov't and has said he wants to be able to do the same in Afghanistan: at this point shouldn't that be what everyone wants? To let these people determine their own futures and police themselves? I still think there is a moral obligation for western and particularly American NGOs and governmental aid programs to be maintained in rebuilding Iraq (who wrecked everything?). We (NATO countries) failed in that with the Afghans the first time around, after we backed their resistance to the Soviets and if we had helped them more perhaps 9/11 wouldn't have happened...
 

dumpthemonarchy

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Well first off they are not the poorest. One of them, yes, but not as bad as Burundi or the Congo, as you can find out by googling and checking various sites. Stop overstating things: it detracts from your credibility. As well, they have shown that while most of Afghanistan is not dangerous to the outside world as long as we leave them alone, the fact that Afghanistan is willing provide refuge to groups that can and will strike in other countries, be it the US, Bali, Spain or others does threaten our security.

OK is this all a poor attempt at sarcasm? I mean Obama has wound down major combat operations in Iraq as the US has tried to hand more power over to the existing Iraqi gov't and has said he wants to be able to do the same in Afghanistan: at this point shouldn't that be what everyone wants? To let these people determine their own futures and police themselves? I still think there is a moral obligation for western and particularly American NGOs and governmental aid programs to be maintained in rebuilding Iraq (who wrecked everything?). We (NATO countries) failed in that with the Afghans the first time around, after we backed their resistance to the Soviets and if we had helped them more perhaps 9/11 wouldn't have happened...

Here at factmonster in a list of the world's 50 poorest country you find Afhgan. They are one of the poorest, and thus, little danger on their own. Afghanis are not Arabs and resent Arabs using their land as a launching pad against the West.
World's 50 Poorest Countries — FactMonster.com

So, you don't think it's fantastic dumb wars are ending? Wars longer than WW 1 and 2 combined? Warmonger!

Sure we should continue aid programs to Iraq and Afhgan, they have suffered a lot for no WMDs and letting crazy Arabs into their country.
 

wulfie68

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Here at factmonster in a list of the world's 50 poorest country you find Afhgan. They are one of the poorest, and thus, little danger on their own. Afghanis are not Arabs and resent Arabs using their land as a launching pad against the West.
World's 50 Poorest Countries — FactMonster.com

In your previous post you stated they were THE poorest country in the world. I merely corrected your (arguably incorrect) assertion. If you had stated they were ONE OF instead of THE poorest, there wouldn't be an issue.

I don't know who called them Arabs either but the fact of the matter is their former de facto government, the Taliban, provided sanctuary to groups willing to strike against the West. Regardless of your opinion on how ordinary Afghans feel about that (and lets be more precise, Afghans are more likely to associate themselves with their tribes than their country), that fact does make them a danger to us, as evidenced by the attacks in New York, Bali, London and Madrid, among others.

So, you don't think it's fantastic dumb wars are ending? Wars longer than WW 1 and 2 combined? Warmonger!

Sure we should continue aid programs to Iraq and Afhgan, they have suffered a lot for no WMDs and letting crazy Arabs into their country.

I do think the ending of hostilities is a great thing... as long as it is not just a prelude to a regrouping, rebuilding of arms & supplies, and a resumption of hostilities. If this is just a lull in the storm then we need to keep going and end things on our terms. Now if that makes me a warmonger to you, then so be it.

And you really need to read some history books: our intervention in Afghanistan has been going on for almost 9 years. That is longer than the combined American participation in both World Wars but that does not define the absolute length of the conflcits, and certainly not for Canadians. World War I began in the summer of 1914 (the US entered the war in April 1917 although there were American volunteers fighting in the armed forces of other countries before then) and ended Nov 11, 1918. WW2 for most allies began at the end of September 1939 (the US entered the war in December 1941 when they were attacked) and ended in August 1945, although the Japanese invaded the Chinese in 1937, which some historians call the true beginning of the conflict. By my math, thats 4 years and 6 years respectively...