Ottawa to make Canada less inviting for U.S. deserters


Praxius
#1
Ottawa to make Canada less inviting for U.S. deserters - CTV News

Quote:

OTTAWA — The Conservative government has given immigration officers tough new marching orders for dealing with military deserters seeking refuge in Canada, painting them as criminals who may be inadmissible.

The Immigration Department is leaning on officers to give a more critical assessment in new cases and telling them to report more often about existing files.

The department recently issued a bulletin to field officers saying flight from military service in another country may make certain refugee claimants inadmissible.

The new directive points to existing provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act -- sections that bar refugees from Canada on the "grounds of serious criminality" -- in order to make the case.

"Desertion is an offence in Canada under the National Defence Act," says the notice, issued July 22.

"The maximum punishment for desertion under section 88 of the (National Defence Act) is life imprisonment, if the person committed the offence on active service or under orders for active service. Consequently, persons who have deserted the military in their country of origin may be inadmissible to Canada."

The bulletin stops short of imposing a flat ban on deserters entering the country and instructs immigration officers to seek guidance from regional advisers when dealing with deserters applying for permanent residence. It also tells them to notify the department's case management branch when any new refugee claims are filed or high-profile ones are updated.

Critics charged the Conservatives were singling out deserters and discriminating against them.

Officials in Immigration Minister Jason Kenney's office were not available to comment, but a department spokesman denied deserters are being treated any differently and other cases also merit close scrutiny.

"We would track war criminals up in our cases management branch; we would track cases involving high-profile individuals," said Doug Kellam.

"There's lots of categories that are like that in which we are interested in making sure we've got them on our radar and we track them as they go."

Still, Michelle Robidoux of the War Resisters Support Campaign said the directive smacked of politics.

"Why create this new, high-profile contentious case pool for military resisters?" she asked. "To me it's an ideological thing. It not based on need because there is already a process in place for screen out people who are criminally inadmissible."

Last month, the Federal Court of Appeal ruled that immigration officers must consider a soldier's beliefs and motivations when deciding on humanitarian applications for permanent residence. The court was dealing with the case of Jeremy Hinzman, a former paratrooper who bailed on the Iraq war as a conscientious objector.

The three-judge appeals panel ruled that an immigration officer's decision to reject Hinzman's application for permanent residence was "significantly flawed" and unreasonable and ordered that another officer at the refugee board look at the application.

There are up to 40 self-styled war resisters in Canada, according to figures from a support network. How many of them are actual deserters is not clear.

Conservatives have shown no sympathy and even less patience with what Kenney described last year as "bogus refugee claimants."

Previously released Access to Information documents make a clear distinction between the current crop of conscientious objectors and those who fled to Canada by the thousands in the 1960s.

The Conservatives have stated that unlike Vietnam, individuals coming to Canada throughout the Iraq war voluntarily joined the United States military and deserted.

Liberal MP Gerard Kennedy described the bulletin as "reckless" and accused the Conservatives of political interference and manipulation.

"These people are entitled to a fair hearing and have their case considered on its merits," he said.

"The courts have started to increasingly rule that conscientious objection is a legitimate grounds for humanitarian and compassionate consideration in Canada. They shouldn't be using what is essentially a propaganda process to try and contain this. They should let an objective process take place."

The House of Commons has twice passed non-binding motions to halt deportation proceedings against American conscientious objectors trying to stay in Canada. A private members bill, to give the motions legislative weight, is due to be debated this fall in Parliament.

Doesn't really surprise me, as I figured once the courts did something the Conservatives didn't like or agree with, they'd soon try and plop out there some new political mumbo jumbo to twist things back into their favor... it wouldn't be the first time they did this...... if they can't appeal a court decision, then they change the rules.

As mentioned in the above report, they already have procedures in place to filter out people who are criminally inadmissible and the courts already ruled on how to treat these War Resister cases..... yet now suddenly the Conservatives feel they need to toss this out?

What an odd coincidence.
 
petros
#2
How can you be a criminal for refusing to kill?
 
AnnaG
#3
Maybe as well as conscientious objectors and the like, they should deny jaywalkers, too.
It's all good as long as they ignore the scam artists, rapists, and other real criminals in Canada, right?
Looks like a ploy to brown-nose US military authority.
 
bill barilko
+2
#4  Top Rated Post
We have people from countries with real problems applying for asylum-we don't need fakers from other rich countries who volunteered and now have cold feet.

The simple fact is that if someone wants to leave the US military it's easy to get thrown out-go AWOL for a couple weeks then show up not having showered or shaved/looking like you've been on a bender-you'll be gone in a few days.

What's the problem?
 
EagleSmack
+2
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by bill barilkoView Post

We have people from countries with real problems applying for asylum-we don't need fakers from other rich countries who volunteered and now have cold feet.

The simple fact is that if someone wants to leave the US military it's easy to get thrown out-go AWOL for a couple weeks then show up not having showered or shaved/looking like you've been on a bender-you'll be gone in a few days.

What's the problem?

EXACTLY!

These folks signed up, they were not drafted, they were not forced.

Either way, one day they will have to face the music. They were fools for deserting and now they are going to have to pay.
 
Cliffy
-1
#6
Yup! Sign up to serve your country only to find out you are a mercenary for the military/industrial complex. Idiots!
 
ironsides
#7
Cowards all of them, refusing to take the punishment for breaking the law and more importantly their word to their country.
 
Cliffy
-1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

Cowards all of them, refusing to take the punishment for breaking the law and more importantly their word to their country.

Yup! Right up there with murders and rapists. Military recruiters lie to poor people living in ghettos about creating a new life for themselves, getting an education, etc knowing full well that they will be nothing more than cannon fodder, asked to do the dirty work for the rich. Many of them come back from places like Iraq broken physically, mentally and spiritually. Many commit suicide, become junkies and alcoholics, ignored by veteran affairs and the government in general. They are the disposable of society. Their country really doesn't care about them but they are supposed to care about the country that abandons them. I have seen too many wrecks coming back from wars to give the military any credit and certainly not the countries that treat them like so much human garbage. Too many of them get used up and thrown out. It takes incredible courage to leave their families and friends behind to start a new life in a different country and welcome them to Canada with open arms.

If this gets me another bad rep, I don't care. Canada should be a refuge for peace loving people. The military/industrial complex can eat my shorts.
 
AnnaG
+1
#9
From a Canadian POV, fussing over relatively harmless dodgers, cowardly or not, is simply stupid when there are foreign people here who have done some really criminal things. Get rid of the nasties before you get rid of the unpleasant.
But, I guess logic isn't a strong point with politicians.
 
bill barilko
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Yup! Right up there with murders and rapists. Military recruiters lie to poor people living in ghettos about yaddah, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah....

I can't remember the last time I read more lies and Bee Ess in one post than the rot as posted.
 
Cliffy
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by bill barilkoView Post

I can't remember the last time I read more lies and Bee Ess in one post than the rot as posted.

Why thank you. You can always use it to fertilize your garden. See, it is much more useful than the military/industrial complex which prefers to destroys stuff.
Last edited by Cliffy; Aug 4th, 2010 at 08:46 PM..
 
earth_as_one
#12
Defending your country is one thing. Participating in a war crime is another. Iraq falls clearly into the war crime category.

Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan | World news | The Guardian (external - login to view)

Claiming you were just following orders is no defense.
 
AnnaG
+1
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Defending your country is one thing. Participating in a war crime is another. Iraq falls clearly into the war crime category.

Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan | World news | The Guardian (external - login to view)

Claiming you were just following orders is no defense.

Oh, shyte. Here we go again. Another opportunity to talk about Iraq, which will lead to talking about Israelis.

The topic is Canada dealing with deserters.
 
Goober
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

From a Canadian POV, fussing over relatively harmless dodgers, cowardly or not, is simply stupid when there are foreign people here who have done some really criminal things. Get rid of the nasties before you get rid of the unpleasant.
But, I guess logic isn't a strong point with politicians.

AnnaG - it is pure politics - But I agree with the nasties that should be gone. As to deserters - Send them back -
 
EagleSmack
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Yup! Right up there with murders and rapists.

Nope, they'll be charged with desertion.

Quote:

Military recruiters lie to poor people living in ghettos about creating a new life for themselves, getting an education, etc knowing full well that they will be nothing more than cannon fodder, asked to do the dirty work for the rich.

Nah, that's just what the whinners say. When a small percentage realize that the military isn't for them the first thing they say is that their recruiter lied.

The notion that the military is all poor people from ghettos has been proven false over and over.


Quote:

Many of them come back from places like Iraq broken physically, mentally and spiritually. Many commit suicide, become junkies and alcoholics, ignored by veteran affairs and the government in general.

More silliness.

Quote:

They are the disposable of society.

They are also our police, firemen, politicians, airline pilots, businessmen and women, nurses, doctors, etc.

Quote:

Their country really doesn't care about them but they are supposed to care about the country that abandons them.

Yet they have more advantages than people who did not join the military as they should.

Quote:

I have seen too many wrecks coming back from wars to give the military any credit and certainly not the countries that treat them like so much human garbage. Too many of them get used up and thrown out

Really? I doubt you have at all.

Quote:

It takes incredible courage to leave their families and friends behind to start a new life in a different country and welcome them to Canada with open arms.

They will all end up back here soon and get what they deserve.

Quote:

If this gets me another bad rep, I don't care. Canada should be a refuge for peace loving people. The military/industrial complex can eat my shorts.

lol. Please...someday you'll wake up.
 
gopher
+1
#16
Let's hope the USA's Justice Department will make our shores less desirable for deserters from Israel's and Russia's armies as well!

 
Goober
+1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Defending your country is one thing. Participating in a war crime is another. Iraq falls clearly into the war crime category.

Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan | World news | The Guardian (external - login to view)

Claiming you were just following orders is no defense.

It is the individual Soldier that commits the War Crime - This following orders crap of yours is right out of Hiller's Germany

Did Soldiers commit War Crimes - yes - Why -Sometimes you fuk up - and the good ones realize that and carry that horror with them till they die.

You have no freaking idea of what it is like to be where they are - to follow Rules of Engagement as per Gen MaCrystals orders - as they do in Afghanistan that results in more soldiers killed - Why - Politics -

You have no idea of what you have to do within a second or 2 -
You have no idea of what it takes to make the right decision in those few seconds -
Why - because you have never had to -
Never had to make a decision where your self or your troops lived or died -
Basically - You have no idea.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Aug 4th, 2010 at 10:33 PM..
 
Cliffy
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

Nope, they'll be charged with desertion.



Nah, that's just what the whinners say. When a small percentage realize that the military isn't for them the first thing they say is that their recruiter lied.

The notion that the military is all poor people from ghettos has been proven false over and over.

More silliness.

They are also our police, firemen, politicians, airline pilots, businessmen and women, nurses, doctors, etc.

Yet they have more advantages than people who did not join the military as they should.

Really? I doubt you have at all.

They will all end up back here soon and get what they deserve.

lol. Please...someday you'll wake up.

Wake up to what, your reality? I don't think so.

You don't know who I've met, where I've been, or what I know. You think that my world view being opposite to yours makes me ignorant? I have lived most of the last forty years with draft dodgers, deserters and guys who have served and left their country because of the atrocities they witnessed. I knew a guy up in Quesnel who was in a wheel chair because of his injuries in Nam and the Veterans Affairs cut him of his pension. He had to return to the US to fight for his rights and those of his fellow combatants who were cut off. Now you have a large group of Iraq veterans against war. How many hundreds have come back and ended up committing suicide? No I have a firm grip on reality but I think you are blinded by your patriotism.
 
EagleSmack
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Wake up to what, your reality? I don't think so.

You don't know who I've met, where I've been, or what I know. You think that my world view being opposite to yours makes me ignorant? I have lived most of the last forty years with draft dodgers, deserters and guys who have served and left their country because of the atrocities they witnessed. I knew a guy up in Quesnel who was in a wheel chair because of his injuries in Nam and the Veterans Affairs cut him of his pension. He had to return to the US to fight for his rights and those of his fellow combatants who were cut off. Now you have a large group of Iraq veterans against war. How many hundreds have come back and ended up committing suicide? No I have a firm grip on reality but I think you are blinded by your patriotism.


You have lived forty years with draft dodgers and deserters...well there you go! lol. I would not expect them to be whistling the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

How many hundreds of the millions that have served? How many hundreds of former college grads committed suicide? How many hundreds of non-military and non-college grads committed suicide?

Save me your tears.

Send the deserters home to justice. They are just making it worse for themselves. They will get a year in the slammer, a DISHONORABLE DISCHARGE and then they can go back to you folks and you can care for them.
 
Cliffy
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

Send the deserters home to justice.

No. They have suffered enough.
 
EagleSmack
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

No. They have suffered enough.

Oh please. I read the list of deserters. Some of them never even went over to Iraq or Afghanistan.

It was refreshing though to see that Canada has deported a few of them already.
 
CDNBear
#22
A hats off to Goober, EagleSmack, and Anna for saving me the time of correcting a few people in here, thanx, lol.
 
s_lone
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

A hats off to Goober, EagleSmack, and Anna for saving me the time of correcting a few people in here, thanx, lol.

Hats off to you for being full of yourself Mr. Bear! As if those not on your side are necessarily wrong.

Yes, once you get in the army, you should know what you're getting into. But the army is NOT an infinitely wise entity who necessarily does the best thing for its country and the rest of the world. I'm not saying it can't do good. I'm saying it doesn't necessarily do good. And in the cases where it doesn't do good, deserting is a very sensible option. There's nothing cowardly about refusing to sacrifice your life for a bunch of lying politicians.

Can you really say the US army served its citizens by fighting in Vietnam? Those who deserted the army to avoid that war have all my sympathy.

Whether you agree with the Irak and Afghan wars is entirely personal. And the ethical judgment of deserters all depends on context.

And of course, we all know we'd be fighting in Irak right now, had the Cons been in power in 2003. The same applies to Iggy also!
 
CDNBear
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by s_loneView Post

Hats off to you for being full of yourself Mr. Bear! As if those not on your side are necessarily wrong.



Quote:

Yes, once you get in the army, you should know what you're getting into.

Full stop.

I have nothing else to add, you just said it all, again correcting those, I previously alluded to. Thank you.
 
ironsides
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Yup! Right up there with murders and rapists. Military recruiters lie to poor people living in ghettos about creating a new life for themselves, getting an education, etc knowing full well that they will be nothing more than cannon fodder, asked to do the dirty work for the rich. Many of them come back from places like Iraq broken physically, mentally and spiritually. Many commit suicide, become junkies and alcoholics, ignored by veteran affairs and the government in general. They are the disposable of society. Their country really doesn't care about them but they are supposed to care about the country that abandons them. I have seen too many wrecks coming back from wars to give the military any credit and certainly not the countries that treat them like so much human garbage. Too many of them get used up and thrown out. It takes incredible courage to leave their families and friends behind to start a new life in a different country and welcome them to Canada with open arms.

If this gets me another bad rep, I don't care. Canada should be a refuge for peace loving people. The military/industrial complex can eat my shorts.

The U,S, has the best Veterans Administration and benefits in the world for our disabled veterans and in most cases those with problems are taken care of ASAP. It takes no courage to run off to Canada, usually they run off before anything happens to them anyway, just scared little boys and girls. Canada does not need anymore of our weaklings. People who just stand by and watch the world go by doing no more than criticizing, really have no say in the outcome. (I mean which ever side you chose be active in your convictions) Those who chose to run away from their obligations are cowards, Many chose to stay and take the punishment which was minimal. Those I respect.
 
s_lone
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post



Full stop.

I have nothing else to add, you just said it all, again correcting those, I previously alluded to. Thank you.

Wow. That's some lazy wiggling out! And if the army suddenly started ordering its soldiers to rape all women of the country they are fighting in, you'd still say that to a deserter?... ''You should have known what you are getting into!''

How about an intelligent answer to this point:

The judgement of deserter should never be absolute and always depend on the context, i.e, the situation in which the deserting was done.

What would you think of North Korean or Iranian deserters hiding in Canada. Would you be desperate to send them back?

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

The U,S, has the best Veterans Administration and benefits in the world for our disabled veterans and in most cases those with problems are taken care of ASAP. It takes no courage to run off to Canada, usually they run off before anything happens to them anyway, just scared little boys and girls. Canada does not need anymore of our weaklings. People who just stand by and watch the world go by doing no more than criticizing, really have no say in the outcome. (I mean which ever side you chose be active in your convictions) Those who chose to run away from their obligations are cowards, Many chose to stay and take the punishment which was minimal. Those I respect.

Does taking the punishment mean going to jail and getting raped?
 
pgs
#27
Rape and pillage are called the spoils of war.
most western nations no longer practice this vulgarity.
That cannot be said for all countries.
Whose side would you rather be on?
 
CDNBear
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by s_loneView Post

Wow. That's some lazy wiggling out!

No wiggling and I'm more than capable of being verbose when need be s_lone. Please do try and at least pretend you know me better then that.

Quote:

And if the army suddenly started ordering its soldiers to rape all women of the country they are fighting in, you'd still say that to a deserter?...

And if suddenly the moon turned into cheese?

Do you have anymore fanciful and asinine simile's?

Quote:

How about an intelligent answer to this point:

The judgement of deserter should never be absolute and always depend on the context, i.e, the situation in which the deserting was done.

How about the US Supreme Courts ruling on contentious objectors?

How about the US Armed Forces classification of 1-A-O.

How about desertion was not and is not the only option, for the voluntarily enlisted.

How about you knock off your condescending attitude and drop the bias.

Quote:

What would you think of North Korean or Iranian deserters hiding in Canada. Would you be desperate to send them back?

Were they conscripted?

You seem to be under the impression I have a singularly dimensional view on this matter. You should avoid making such assumptions. You kow what they say about assumptions right?

Quote: Originally Posted by s_loneView Post

Does taking the punishment mean going to jail and getting raped?

I've been to jail and prison. I was never raped.

Sometimes all that free food and training comes in handy.
 
ironsides
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by s_loneView Post

Wow.


Does taking the punishment mean going to jail and getting raped?

You have been seeing to many movies, have to get out more.
 
EagleSmack
+1
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by s_loneView Post

Wow. That's some lazy wiggling out! And if the army suddenly started ordering its soldiers to rape all women of the country they are fighting in, you'd still say that to a deserter?... ''You should have known what you are getting into!''

How about an intelligent answer to this point:


You talk about intelligence and give the most ridiculous "what if?" above?



Quote:

Does taking the punishment mean going to jail and getting raped?

So, are these guys and gals getting raped in the brig?

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

The U,S, has the best Veterans Administration and benefits in the world for our disabled veterans and in most cases those with problems are taken care of ASAP. It takes no courage to run off to Canada, usually they run off before anything happens to them anyway, just scared little boys and girls. Canada does not need anymore of our weaklings. People who just stand by and watch the world go by doing no more than criticizing, really have no say in the outcome. (I mean which ever side you chose be active in your convictions) Those who chose to run away from their obligations are cowards, Many chose to stay and take the punishment which was minimal. Those I respect.


Agreed. There are so many other ways to get out of it. Sure you will get court martialed and most likely discharged. A soldier that simply says...

"I'm not going to go"

... is going to become a liability over there.

These guys and gals who jumped to Canada wanted to avoid any kind of punishment for their decision. So for going to Canada instead of getting a Less that Honorable or a Bad Conduct Discharge at most, they will most likely get a Dishonorable Discharge. So as I said, send them home, they will face the music, get their DHs and then they can go back to Canada and live off your government. When you have a DH Discharge there is not a heck of a lot you can do here.
 

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