Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy
*** for Tat???!!!!
In November of 2009 a North Korean warship trespassed into South Korean waters and opened fire on a South Korean naval vessel........the South Koreans returned fire very effectively, leaving the North's vessel heavily damaged.
First, and LEAST of all, the South did not sink the NK vessel, despite their obvious ability to have completed the task.
Secondly, the conflict in November was in South Korean waters.
Thirdly, the NORTH opened fire........
So, twice North Koreans invade South Korean territory and open fire on South Korean naval vessels........the first time they are defeated and withdraw, the second time they manage to kill dozens of South Korean sailors.
And you call that "*** for Tat"
No wonder it is difficult to take you seriously!
If we and our allies had a brain between us, we would execute some regime change in North Korea.
Might put the damned Chinese on notice: no more Mr. Nice Guy.
Unlike you, I'm not so certain who did what to whom. I wasn't there. I didn't witness this event personally. I listened to both sides' claims about the incident and looked at the disputed area. Knowing the games played by all sides along this border, I believe pretty much anything is possible.
Unlike you, I don't trust the US or the South Koreans to admit they unnecessarily fired on a North Korean ship. I also don't trust the North Koreans to admit they deliberately provoked the US.
The only undisputed fact is only that a North Korean patrol boat was heavily damaged in an incident called The Battle of Daecheong near
the Northern Limit Line (a disputed area).
Considering how close the NLL is to the North Korean coast, its probable the NK patrol boat did cross the the NLL at one point. But it sounds like it was it heading back to North Korea and may have even been in undisputed North Korea waters at the time it was hit.
I know what the newspapers and wikipedia say about this incident and they aren't so certain as you about what happened.
North Koreans claimed they were attacked without provocation. The US claims the North Koreans crossed into South Korea waters after repeated warnings. Apparently those warnings also included opening fire on the North Koreans.
...The Battle of Daecheong was a skirmish between the South Korean and North Korean navies near the Northern Limit Line (NLL) on 10 November 2009 off Daecheong Island. A patrol boat from North Korea was seriously damaged while the navy of South Korea sustained no casualties....
Battle of Daecheong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)
In this case, the word near could be interpreted as being inconclusive about the exact location of the NK patrol boat at the time it was hit.
Regarding the legitimacy of the Northern Limit Line:
....The line was unilaterally set by the U.S.-led United Nations military forces on August 30, 1953 after the United Nations Command and North Korea failed to reach an agreement. It is not officially recognized by North Korea. In particular, it is not included into the Armistice Agreement of 1953 between the two states. The line was originally drawn to prevent southern incursions into the north, however its role has since transformed to prevent North Korean ships heading south....
Northern Limit Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)
Funny how this undefined border became defined according to the Americans in favor of the South Koreans, while no one else recognizes it.
If you follow the link above, you can see see a map where the Americans unilaterally drew the NLL without North Korea's agreement. To me, it looks like an obvious land grab which also happens to be a rich fishing area.
Crab Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)
I can't see how anyone can say with certainty the North Koreans crossed the border into south Korea's waters with certainty, when the border is undefined and most reports only claim the incident occurred near
The North Koreans have their version of events:
YONHAP NEWS (external - login to view)
In this Telegraph report, both sides make different claims about what happened:
North and South Korea warships exchange fire - Telegraph (external - login to view)
A Korean perception of the NLL:
...North Korea accepted the US control of the five islands. However, it asserted that it had the control over the waters surrounding the five islands...North Korea has never agreed to Clark’s northern limit line....Quote has been trimmed
...On February 26, 1975, about 10 fishing boats from North Korea crossed Clark’s Northern Limit. South Korean warships attacked and sank a North Korean fishing boat. Park Chung Hee claimed that the Northern Limit had been in effect for over 20 years by then and hence it was a de facto legal line and his forces would defend it to death. On July 1, 1977, North Korea proclaimed a 200-nautical mile economic zone.
Clark’s Northern Limit is mere 3 nautical miles (5.5 km) from the nearest North Korean coast. It places severe limitation on North Korean warships in areas of the Hwang-hae-nam-do province. The North Korean port of Haeju is virtually shut off by Clark’s line. The rich crab fishing areas during May-June of every year lie just south of the Line and North and South Korean fishermen have waged friendly crab fishing war until the recent armed clash....
Like I said, I'm not so certain as you about what happened or the true location of the border in this area.
The North Koreans believe they were attacked without provocation and that's why they probably fired a torpedo at a South Korean ship patrolling in this disputed zone.
Until both sides agree where the border exists, the area is disputed and probably both sides should avoid it.
Also, I don't think its in Canada's interest to recognize borders just because they were unilaterally declared by the Americans.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States (external - login to view)
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jul 13th, 2010 at 07:40 AM..