No warning for Russian space debris hitting Canada

[china]

No warning for Russian space debris hitting Canada: documents

Dean Beeby, THE CANADIAN PRESS
OTTAWA - Federal officials got no warning that a Russian rocket would soar through Canadian airspace last December before splashing down, newly released documents show.

Instead, military and government officials were given three different re-entry points - all far removed from Canada - before learning the rocket had actually come down over Labrador.
The incident highlights a vulnerability of Canadian airspace even as the air force scrambles jets to counter threatened Russian bomber intrusions in the High Arctic.
The Russian Proton-K rocket, carrying three navigation satellites, was launched Dec. 25 from the Baikonur facility in Kazakhstan. "No followup with Russia was deemed necessary because the use of Canadian territory for the re-entry was not planned and there was no evidence that anything physically survived re-entry," said Jacinthe Perras. went into a low orbit for more than a day before crashing back to Earth.
Norad military experts tracking the object alerted Canadian officials and others on Christmas Day that the booster was expected to re-enter the atmosphere somewhere off Antarctica, south of Australia.
But by the next day, the radar-based prediction shifted to a spot over the Pacific Ocean, about 200 kilometres southwest of Nicaragua. Then Norad said the booster would come down about 370 kilometres east of Florida, in the Atlantic Ocean.
In the end, the booster tumbled back to Earth about 120 kilometres north of Blanc Sablon, Que., over a barren stretch of Labrador. The estimated re-entry point was just a few hundred kilometres southeast of the Goose Bay air force base.
The rocket then disappeared from radar. Any debris that did not burn up in the atmosphere is believed to have carried on into the Labrador Sea.
Norad's operation centre at Cheyenne Mountain, Colo., notified Canadian officials of the splashdown minutes after the event, leaving no time for warnings to fishing boats, cargo ships or populated places. The rocket's path had taken it across the Maritime provinces.
"At this time there was not sufficient time to ask the CCG (Canadian Coast Guard) to notify any vessels," says an internal email from a Public Safety official.
Documents detailing the incident, including Norad reports, were obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.
The Proton-K re-entry was reminiscent of a 2005 incident, when a U.S. military rocket splashed down in the vicinity of the Hibernia oil platform, on Newfoundland's Grand Banks, shortly after its launch from Florida.
The planned launch of the Titan IV B-30 rocket prompted Premier Danny Williams to order an evacuation of several offshore-oil platforms.
But the order was soon rescinded when American air force officials assured Ottawa the risks were small and the rocket would be destroyed if it veered off course.
A space debris expert, however, says the uncertainties about splashdown rise significantly if an object has achieved orbit, as did the Russian rocket.
"Once something gets into orbit, where it's going to come down is really unknown," said William Ailor, director of the Center for Orbital and Reentry Debris Studies in El Segundo, Calif.
Objects like boosters can tumble, making their aerodynamics unpredictable, and the upper atmosphere itself can be uneven because of solar storms and other factors, he said in an interview.
"You know the path but you don't know where along the path it's going to come down," Ailor said. "If you're thinking about trying to warn somebody, it makes it very difficult to do that."
Modern orbital hardware is more frequently being equipped with control mechanisms, such as re-entry thrusters, to better control where the debris comes down, he added.
Canada's nastiest encounter with space debris occurred in 1978, when a nuclear-powered Russian satellite broke up across the Northwest Territories, triggering an expensive cleanup of radioactive material. The Soviet Union eventually paid $3 million in compensation for the crash of Cosmos 954.
Today, about 80 large orbiting objects rain down on Earth each year but so far there have been no known deaths or injuries.
A Norad spokesman says Canada is no more likely to be hit with space junk than any other place.
"Rocket bodies tumble through the atmosphere, so the locations of where these rocket bodies land on Earth is geographically random," said U.S. Lt.-Cmdr. Gary Ross.
Earlier this year, Defence Minister Peter MacKay talked tough after a Russian Tupolev bomber headed for Canadian airspace in the High Arctic, prompting the air force to scramble two CF-18 fighter jets.
The jets sent a signal that the Russians should "back off and stay out of our airspace," MacKay said of the Feb. 18 incident.
A spokeswoman for the Public Safety Department said no protest over the Dec. 26 rocket re-entry was made to the Russian government.
"No followup with Russia was deemed necessary because the use of Canadian territory for the re-entry was not planned and there was no evidence that anything physically survived re-entry," said Jacinthe Perras.
Ironically, about two weeks before December's rocket incident, another Proton-K rocket lifted off from Baikonur carrying a Canadian communications satellite
The commercial Ciel-2 satellite, owned by Toronto's Ciel Satellite Group, was successfully placed into orbit on Dec. 10

"No followup with Russia was deemed necessary because the use of Canadian territory for the re-entry was not planned and there was no evidence that anything physically survived re-entry," said Jacinthe Perras.

"No followup with Russia was deemed necessary because .........because it takes GUTS .

 

[DurkaDurka]

"No followup with Russia was deemed necessary because .........because it takes GUTS .

It takes guts to follow up with Russia about space debris that burned up on atmosphere re-entry?

You shouldn't be commenting on "guts", you yellow, little Polish man.

 

[china]

Durka Durka

You shouldn't be commenting on "guts", you yellow, little Polish man.

HaHA Durka Durka ; You're so naive .
Yes I am Polish and trust me I,m not little ,especially where it counts ; if you know what I mean ,hahahaaah.
Yellow ? I know Canadian government very well Durka Durka .As a businessman I have criticized those busters by a letter ,face to face, in their office or in a public place .Whatever I told them was a truth (yea, "an absolute" truth) .The Liberals don't like me and I don,t like lairs , the yellow kind .

Just wonder what would have happened if the stage of the rocket ( a size of the bus ) hit a city like Vancouver , Edmontion ,Red Dear or any other community;what would the Canadian Government Say ; ah....no problem ,you guys told us that you didn't plan to " use Canadian territory for the re-entry" any how . The Canadians should tell the Ruskis to go and play with their rockets somewhere else.Also stop "invading" the Canadian Arctic with their long range bombers or we will shoot them down.....and do it,
We could also offer air navigation courses to the Russian pilots..................no ,Shoot them down.......Have guts .
In the same situation they would shoot you down( and they did just that . without any hesitation .

 

[earth_as_one]

The Russians thought their rocket would re-enter elsewhere. Doesn't sound like they had deliberately targeted Canada. Since no one was hurt and no property damage, they owe us an apology, but nothing more.

I don't see this as a threat to Canada specifically as the rocket coming down here was random. Maybe all nations who put objects into space should be obligated to notify the world about the trajectories and possible re-entry points.

 

[petros]

Too funny. Mc Kay? Guts balls? Yeah right. Stinks of propanganda. Russia flies bears 24/7 along and over our borders and has for over 50 years. McKay just figured this out?

 

[darkbeaver]

China wants to piss off our neighbours because of a piece of junks near miss. Why is he promoting anti Russian feelings, perhaps he wants us to join Poland in a surprise invasion of eastern Yorope.

 

[darkbeaver]

The Russians are Coming. They eat babies, everybody hide.

 

[china]

they owe us an apology,

but nothing more.
You'll never get that from Ruskis ; the incident occurred last December

but nothing more.

.........we should demand an apology from the Russians and a reassurance that his will never happen again and we should have enough guts to tell them if they don't stop flying their bombers in a Canadian arctic ........ we will stop playing hockey with them .

 

[china]

petros

Russia flies bears 24/7 along and over our borders and has for oIver 50 years.

.......Russian also plant their flag in a Canadian Arctic seabed.

If Canada has any bombers let them fly along and over the the Russian border; see what happens .What a joke ,petros

 

[petros]

petros


.......Russian also plant their flag in a Canadian Arctic seabed.

If Canada has any bombers let them fly along and over the the Russian border; see what happens .What a joke ,petros

Yup. While Canada and US are playing cowboys and indians in middle east, Russia has tripled it's Arctic forces and Siberia resource developement is going to crush the raw materials exports from here while Europe raids our Arctic mineral cupboard and middles it to China.

A joke is right. Pissants like Mckay can take a flying kurwa at a rolling donut.

 

[lone wolf]

Was the flag not placed AT the North Pole? That's 200k from any Canadian Arctic seabed....

Leave the propaganda to the pros.

 

[petros]

Was the flag not placed AT the North Pole? That's 200k from any Canadian Arctic seabed....

Leave the propaganda to the pros.

The mapping of a continental ridge is currently being mapped and all claims are to be settled based on the positions of the shelves. Dr Ruth of NRCan is currenting doing sounding of the ridge.

We'll know the nationality of Santa soon enough.

 

[karrie]

Considering that the article states that the predictions were coming from Norad military experts, I don't quite get why there seems to be attempted blame of the Russians.

It would appear that re-entry isn't an exact science... if it is, Norad sure screwed the pooch hey?

 

[earth_as_one]

Considering that the article states that the predictions were coming from Norad military experts, I don't quite get why there seems to be attempted blame of the Russians.

It would appear that re-entry isn't an exact science... if it is, Norad sure screwed the pooch hey?

When re-entry is at a shallow angle, the object will bounce off the atmosphere several times. Knowing where and when the object will re-enter would be like predicting how many times a stone will skip before it sinks.

March 20, 2001 -- Taco Bell is offering a free taco to everyone in the U.S. if the core of the Mir space station hits a floating Taco Bell target placed in the South Pacific....

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[gerryh]

Considering that the article states that the predictions were coming from Norad military experts, I don't quite get why there seems to be attempted blame of the Russians.

It would appear that re-entry isn't an exact science... if it is, Norad sure screwed the pooch hey?

it was a shallow attempt by the boards resident Canadian hater to once again find a reason to dish Canada.

 

[china]

A joke is right. Pissants like Mckay can take a flying kurwa at a rolling donut.

Did you have a Polish girl friend or something Petros?

 

[china]

grrryh ,

it was a shallow attempt by the boards resident Canadian hater to once again find a reason to dish Canada.

Doesn't that person have a name or you are just a gutless manikin. That what this thread is about.

 

[petros]

Did you have a Polish girl friend or something Petros?

Nope, an or something. But anyway why limit your swearing to anglisco?

 

[gerryh]

grrryh ,
Doesn't that person have a name or you are just a gutless manikin. That what this thread is about.

This thread is solely about you trying to find new things to diss Canada about.

 

[china]

gerryh

This thread is solely about you trying to find new things to diss Canada about.

So ,use your name and say I, gerryh feel (or whatever) that you China
found new things to diss Canada about .And I would reply :no gerryh ,I , China, have no reason to turn against the Country I love , you,gerryh , live in a world of illusion and you don't give a hoot about the country you're in as long as you make your $ 25 /h or whatever you minimum wage is.