Why Is Canada Buying US Carbon Credits To Sell Energy?

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
4,235
14
38
Vancouver
www.cynicsunlimited.com
I don't get it. Canada has the energy and the US needs it. Yet the US is going to impose a cap and trade system on us that will cost us billions. We can sell energy to Asia and make big bucks no problem, or heaven forfend, Ontario eastwards by building a pipeline. Has Alberta ever heard of globalization?

If Americans want our energy, then tell them to take a hike on their carbon credit scam. Why do we need a lobbyist for this?

Changing environmental tide demands B.C. place a lobbyist in Washington

Changing environmental tide demands B.C. place a lobbyist in Washington



By Miro Cernetig, Vancouver SunApril 13, 2009


Suggesting the B.C. government needs another highly paid lobbyist at taxpayers' expense is about as popular as proposing a pay raise for politicians.
Lobbyists are out of fashion. They're seen as wasters of money. But we actually need one -- in Washington, D.C.
Premier Gordon Campbell's prime directive has been to put our trade representatives in Asia, to promote the province's and Vancouver's interests across the Pacific. There's nothing wrong with that long-term strategy, particularly given the probability China will lead us all out of global recession.
But for all its promise, Asia remains our number two trading partner. Number one, and likely to remain so, is the United States. How many trade reps do we have in Asia? Six. How many in the U.S.? One, in California.
This is a concern because U.S. President Barack Obama is subjecting the Canada-U.S. trading relationship to its greatest overhaul in a generation. Not since the days of the free trade and softwood lumber negotiations have the stakes been this big.
Protectionism is on the rise in Congress. Odds are good the White House's new climate change agenda, a massive reallocation of public and private resources to combat global warming and stoke a green technology boom in the U.S., will morph into a trade barrier to favour the American interest.
It's called the carbon tariff threat. It works something like this: Obama is asking Congress to start a $645-billion "cap and trade program." This is essentially a system that will allocate permission certificates to U.S. companies to emit carbon dioxide.
But those companies that reduce CO2 emissions below assigned targets will be able to sell their carbon-pollution permissions, at a profit, as "carbon credits" to those that don't reduce their carbon footprints. It's the birth of carbon trading. Experts expect it to be a $100-billion-a-year industry in North America by the end of Obama's term.
It's serious news for anyone who exports to the U.S. That's because the U.S. will start assessing the carbon footprint of its trading partners, too.
So, if the U.S. government doesn't recognize our own domestic efforts to reduce our carbon footprint, we will be forced to balance out our carbon sins by purchasing carbon credits. Guess which ones Uncle Sam will favour? Yup, those U.S.-made carbon credits Obama is dreaming up.
How serious is this? Well, the Alberta government, mired in its own recession, sees it as a game changer. Alberta's oil-sands projects, which have a greater carbon footprint than conventional oil, could be facing billions of dollars in "carbon credit" purchases.
Alberta's Premier Ed Stelmach announced a few days ago his province will spend $500,000 a year on two high-powered lobbyists -- former U.S. ambassador to Canada, James Blanchard, and Paul Frazer, a former minister of public affairs at the Canadian Embassy in Washington.
"There's so much at stake for Alberta, and we'll be applying a full-court press not only on elected officials but also on the U. S. administration," the premier explained. "It's important that Alberta has a way of ensuring the right information gets to the policy-makers and the decision-makers."
What does this have to do with British Columbia? Lots.
This province's future export industries -- natural gas production, biofuels and hydro electricity from run-of-river projects or more conventional dams -- will all be scrutinized under the prism of Obama's new carbon-trading system. The United States' interest will be in overestimating our industries' carbon footprints and underestimating B.C.'s innovations to reduce greenhouse gases. If that happens, our key industries will be at a disadvantage for decades.
That's why B.C. needs a lobbyist in D.C. Now.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
23,137
7,993
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
With short-term thinking, is it cheaper (at first, now...) to buy these
Carbon credits than it is to build a pipeline from west to east inside
of Canada or to build a pipeline west to the Pacific to sell oil to Asia?
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
917
31
28
Hither and yon
With short-term thinking, is it cheaper (at first, now...) to buy these
Carbon credits than it is to build a pipeline from west to east inside
of Canada or to build a pipeline west to the Pacific to sell oil to Asia?

Ron,
A large maze of pipelines from West to East already exists.
A large maze of pipelines from North to South also exists.

What we need is a big bore pipeline from Sask and Alberta to the West coast with a deepwater terminal.

CP or CN has recently announced plans to carry very large amounts of crude by rail to the West coast.
Its a brilliant idea.
It gives Canada the option of signing oil delivery contacts with countries like China and India.
And it also means we would have the option of reducing the flow of oil to the Americans and selling it elsewhere.
That thought should have Americans fairly concerned.
It would be a pleasent thought to have the Canadians dictating terms to the Americans from a position of strength for a change.

Trex
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
917
31
28
Hither and yon
I don't get it. Canada has the energy and the US needs it. Yet the US is going to impose a cap and trade system on us that will cost us billions. We can sell energy to Asia and make big bucks no problem, or heaven forfend, Ontario eastwards by building a pipeline. Has Alberta ever heard of globalization?

If Americans want our energy, then tell them to take a hike on their carbon credit scam. Why do we need a lobbyist for this?

Changing environmental tide demands B.C. place a lobbyist in Washington

Changing environmental tide demands B.C. place a lobbyist in Washington



By Miro Cernetig, Vancouver SunApril 13, 2009


Suggesting the B.C. government needs another highly paid lobbyist at taxpayers' expense is about as popular as proposing a pay raise for politicians.
Lobbyists are out of fashion. They're seen as wasters of money. But we actually need one -- in Washington, D.C.
Premier Gordon Campbell's prime directive has been to put our trade representatives in Asia, to promote the province's and Vancouver's interests across the Pacific. There's nothing wrong with that long-term strategy, particularly given the probability China will lead us all out of global recession.
But for all its promise, Asia remains our number two trading partner. Number one, and likely to remain so, is the United States. How many trade reps do we have in Asia? Six. How many in the U.S.? One, in California.
This is a concern because U.S. President Barack Obama is subjecting the Canada-U.S. trading relationship to its greatest overhaul in a generation. Not since the days of the free trade and softwood lumber negotiations have the stakes been this big.
Protectionism is on the rise in Congress. Odds are good the White House's new climate change agenda, a massive reallocation of public and private resources to combat global warming and stoke a green technology boom in the U.S., will morph into a trade barrier to favour the American interest.
It's called the carbon tariff threat. It works something like this: Obama is asking Congress to start a $645-billion "cap and trade program." This is essentially a system that will allocate permission certificates to U.S. companies to emit carbon dioxide.
But those companies that reduce CO2 emissions below assigned targets will be able to sell their carbon-pollution permissions, at a profit, as "carbon credits" to those that don't reduce their carbon footprints. It's the birth of carbon trading. Experts expect it to be a $100-billion-a-year industry in North America by the end of Obama's term.
It's serious news for anyone who exports to the U.S. That's because the U.S. will start assessing the carbon footprint of its trading partners, too.
So, if the U.S. government doesn't recognize our own domestic efforts to reduce our carbon footprint, we will be forced to balance out our carbon sins by purchasing carbon credits. Guess which ones Uncle Sam will favour? Yup, those U.S.-made carbon credits Obama is dreaming up.
How serious is this? Well, the Alberta government, mired in its own recession, sees it as a game changer. Alberta's oil-sands projects, which have a greater carbon footprint than conventional oil, could be facing billions of dollars in "carbon credit" purchases.
Alberta's Premier Ed Stelmach announced a few days ago his province will spend $500,000 a year on two high-powered lobbyists -- former U.S. ambassador to Canada, James Blanchard, and Paul Frazer, a former minister of public affairs at the Canadian Embassy in Washington.
"There's so much at stake for Alberta, and we'll be applying a full-court press not only on elected officials but also on the U. S. administration," the premier explained. "It's important that Alberta has a way of ensuring the right information gets to the policy-makers and the decision-makers."
What does this have to do with British Columbia? Lots.
This province's future export industries -- natural gas production, biofuels and hydro electricity from run-of-river projects or more conventional dams -- will all be scrutinized under the prism of Obama's new carbon-trading system. The United States' interest will be in overestimating our industries' carbon footprints and underestimating B.C.'s innovations to reduce greenhouse gases. If that happens, our key industries will be at a disadvantage for decades.
That's why B.C. needs a lobbyist in D.C. Now.

Well Dump the devil is certainly in the details.
And I would tend to agree with you that Obama and Congress certainly seem like they are preparing the ground to screw Canada once again over our trade deals.
And B.C. can hire any one of a large group of professional lobbiests in D.C. any time it wants.

Carbon credits in a cap and trade scheme are kind of a tricky deal.
The European Union presently has such a system in place and it is integrated with their Kyoto comittments.
Typically each country government tries to give as many carbon credits as it wants to each industry.
Thus each county tries to give more credits to it's industries so as to favour its own businesses.
So there is a lot of scheming and misrepresentation inherent in the system.
Then they may or may not give credits for future growth or expansion plans.
Thus an outfit can lobby for free credits on expansion plans. Get the credits. Cancel the expansion. Sell the credits to somebody else for a profit down the road.
It's already been done in Europe.

Back in North America coal fired power plants produce far, far more total co2 than does as an example the tar sands operations. So how do you deal with that?
Canada has a fair bit of Hydro which is carbon emession free , the Americans have less hydro therefore in a cap and trade scheme Canada should come out on top.
My guess is that is not what Obama and Congress have in mind.

The European carbon credit market has completely melted down as of now.
Euro zone carbon credits have lost all of their value and anyone who invested in them has lost their money.
Kyoto has more or less melted dowm in Europe as well and several of the countries claim that there is no possibility of them living up th their Kyoyo comittments.
Basically they are going to have to walk away from some of their Kyoto deals.
That of course does not change the fact that the Euro zone is far more energy efficent and has for more rigerous environmental regulations than does Canada.

So it is obviously a tricky thing to get right as far as effeciency, effectiveness and fairness goes.

My guess is the Americans are just going to whip up a set of new laws and regulations in order to screw their trade partners to benefit themselves.
They never stop trying to welch and cheat on trade deals with Canada.
Softwood lumber, pork, beef, dairy; once again they are weaseling and waffling on
a whole bunch of their signed deals with Canada.
I hate to be pessemistic on this and I hope I am wrong but I think it is quite likely that the Obama administration is going to introduce a whole whack of protectionist legislation designed to screw Canada.
Again.

Trex
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
I don't get it. Canada has the energy and the US needs it. Yet the US is going to impose a cap and trade system on us that will cost us billions. We can sell energy to Asia and make big bucks no problem, or heaven forfend, Ontario eastwards by building a pipeline. Has Alberta ever heard of globalization?

If you could... you would.

If Americans want our energy, then tell them to take a hike on their carbon credit scam. Why do we need a lobbyist for this?

I tend to agree... buying carbon credits in general IS a scam. There is no gaurantee that your money is going to worthwhile causes. What IS for sure and gauranteed is that the people selling carbon credits are getting rich doing so.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Quoting dumpthemonarchy I don't get it. Canada has the energy and the US needs it. Yet the US is going to impose a cap and trade system on us that will cost us billions. We can sell energy to Asia and make big bucks no problem, or heaven forfend, Ontario eastwards by building a pipeline. Has Alberta ever heard of globalization?


If you could... you would.

That is currently in the process of happening... Planning and development has begun on a pipeline project to BC's Westcoast. One of the big participants and financiers is China.

That said, the opportunity to impose trade barriers will soon be dealt with increasing that trade with other nations. The risk is that once the momentum starts to change direction, it becomes increasingly difficult to alter its course.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Quoting dumpthemonarchy I don't get it. Canada has the energy and the US needs it. Yet the US is going to impose a cap and trade system on us that will cost us billions. We can sell energy to Asia and make big bucks no problem, or heaven forfend, Ontario eastwards by building a pipeline. Has Alberta ever heard of globalization?​




If you could... you would.

That is currently in the process of happening... Planning and development has begun on a pipeline project to BC's Westcoast. One of the big participants and financiers is China.

That said, the opportunity to impose trade barriers will soon be dealt with increasing that trade with other nations. The risk is that once the momentum starts to change direction, it becomes increasingly difficult to alter its course.

Then you are WELL on your way to being owned by China. Enjoy! We love it!
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Then you are WELL on your way to being owned by China. Enjoy! We love it!


Funny you say that when China is the single largest holder of T-bills in the world (Japan and UK are not too far behind). Sadly, the US is selling itself to foreign gvts and entities to attempt to recharge an economy that will have significant foreign ownership... For that matter, take a close look at exactly who is buying-up resources currently/formerly owned by US outfits.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
ROFLMAO....... when it's the states we're dealing with it's "partners"...when it's China...we're "getting owned".

You can ROFLYAO all you want. Read my post...

I said "Enjoy! We did!"

They own our statie butts down here
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Funny you say that when China is the single largest holder of T-bills in the world (Japan and UK are not too far behind). Sadly, the US is selling itself to foreign gvts and entities to attempt to recharge an economy that will have significant foreign ownership... For that matter, take a close look at exactly who is buying-up resources currently/formerly owned by US outfits.

Agreed... it sucks.

Perhaps I should have said "Be careful for what you wish for." China will gladly abide and sack your resources just like you accuse the Americans of doing. Then we can both cry over a beer.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
Agreed... it sucks.

Perhaps I should have said "Be careful for what you wish for." China will gladly abide and sack your resources just like you accuse the Americans of doing. Then we can both cry over a beer.


There is one benefit to living our socialist utopia up here in the frozen North.... Whoever buys-up the resources gets taxed into the grave for their troubles.

The Chinese may want to rethink their decisions.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
There is one benefit to living our socialist utopia up here in the frozen North.... Whoever buys-up the resources gets taxed into the grave for their troubles.

The Chinese may want to rethink their decisions.

The Chinese are no fools. They know exactly what they are doing.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
The whole carbon credits and cap and trade system is bogus.

It's a system to buy and sell pieces of paper with no intrinsic value, all dreamed up by the same system and people that have worked wonders for Wall St and the investment banks.

I think that Canada should stand up and denounce this foolishness, and refuse to have anything to do with it. The only people who will benefit are the investment bankers who buy and sell the paper. It won't accomplish anything useful at all.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
The whole carbon credits and cap and trade system is bogus.

It's a system to buy and sell pieces of paper with no intrinsic value, all dreamed up by the same system and people that have worked wonders for Wall St and the investment banks.

I think that Canada should stand up and denounce this foolishness, and refuse to have anything to do with it. The only people who will benefit are the investment bankers who buy and sell the paper. It won't accomplish anything useful at all.

I agree on ALL POINTS.

Your defining carbon credits as pieces of paper with no intrinsic value is spot on.

Not to make this a global warming/Gore thing but when Gore got the Oscar for "An Inconvenient Truth" he issued one years worth of carbon credits to each Hollywood Movie Star and attendee. Why? Because they were worth NOTHING except for the cost of printing paper. It allowed the Hollywood elite to gorge themselves on energy as they usually do wile chiding us to sacrifice our life styles.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
"It's a system to buy and sell pieces of paper with no intrinsic value, all dreamed up by the same system and people that have worked wonders for Wall St and the investment banks."

The abject stupidity in this system is that it does absolutely nothing to stem the tide of the eevviill emissions from industry. All it really does is transfer the source of the emissions from one geographical region to another.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
23,137
7,993
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
You're not questioning this guy's motives, are you? 8O
What if he asks you nicely to buy carbon credits? 8O


_____________________
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
"It's a system to buy and sell pieces of paper with no intrinsic value, all dreamed up by the same system and people that have worked wonders for Wall St and the investment banks."

The abject stupidity in this system is that it does absolutely nothing to stem the tide of the eevviill emissions from industry. All it really does is transfer the source of the emissions from one geographical region to another.

I agree again. I think for the US to slap tarriffs (sic I am sure) on Canada in the guise of Carbon Credits is a disgrace. They are tarriffs and nothing more.

Let's just say if Canada bought into it and paid these new <cough> carbon credits there is nothing that says that this new money will go into the research of alternative energy sources. It will go into the US Govt. and that will be that.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
28,429
146
63
A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
I'll add to your point in suggesting that there is an opportunity to pit one state against another. Many people have observed that cap/trade is an excellent tool to assist in the redistribution of wealth from region 'A' to region 'B'. This is the simple way of increasing the cost of doing business in one place and hope (encourage) that industry to move to other jurisdictions.

It's a back-door tax that can be applied by the feds at will.