Why did things change?


Stretch
#1
READER: WHY DID THINGS CHANGE?
I don't get it. There have been crooked, dirty dealing, child molesting, evil people all down through the ages. And a few bad kids. But they were not everywhere--on every bus, at the grocery store, teaching school, preaching at a local church.
When I was a kid, most us us were TRAINED. That is, we were taught how to behave properly, what to do and what not to do, how to be respectful, how to handle money, how to shoot a gun and handle an axe and a knife, how to wash and dry dishes, how to make beds and a whole lot of other stuff. We were required to do our homework. Otherwise, we were pretty much left alone.
Most older people were ?old. Some were gruff, some were kind. Some were misguided prudes or martinets. These could be problems, but they were generally not evil problems. Very few people were mean or bad to kids.
Mr. Pope Ellis, the toothless school bus driver when I was in first grade, just drove the school bus. He did not overly concern himself with discipline. If Arthur whatshisname had actually beaten me up on the bus (which he regularly threatened to do) I suspect Mr. Ellis would have just driven the bus, unless things turned really bad.
And if you were a bus rider but you decided one day not to ride the bus home but go home with another kid or go to the store or just walk home., nobody checked or cared. You were assumed to know what to do and to be able to decide for yourself or do what your parents had told you to do.
As an eight year old kid, in the summer I rode the bus alone into Nashville and went to the YMCA for swimming lessons. Back then the "Y" was strictly for men and boys only. We all swam stark naked and shared the one dressing room with old guys with gray pubic hair. I knew how to dress myself, tie my shoes (no Velcro back then), keep up with my money, go to the right bus stop and all that stuff. And I was not some kind of prodigy. There was a bunch of kids my age who did more or less the same things. None of the adult men at the "Y" leered at us or tried to touch us. We just took our swimming lessons and left.
When I was thirteen or fourteen, I began hitchhiking about ten miles to Nashville on some Saturdays to cruise around the various pawn shops and ten cent stores and department stores. I would usually eat at one of the Krystal hamburger shops downtown where burgers were seven cents and doughnuts a nickel. At breakfast, a scrambled egg, toast, jelly, milk and a doughnut ran about thirty-four cents. Getting home often involved a lot of walking because it was very hard to hitch a ride on downtown streets. I would walk a couple of miles over into East Nashville to the beginning of Gallatin Road and then have a fair chance of catching a ride. I always walked while I was thumbing because at least that way I was making progress.
In the forties and fifties, kids played unsupervised in the streets, in vacant lots and in the woods and fields. I have no doubt that kids had been doing things that way for a few centuries before the forties and fifties. We played baseball with no umpires or coaches or catcher's masks, chest protectors or batting helmets. If the space available was not big enough for a regular game, we played "one eyed cat" with only home plate and one base about where second base would be on a full field. We chose up sides and determined which side would bat first by alternating hands on a bat to see which team's representative could be the last to hold it. And without neat white lines and poles, we learned to agree on which balls were fair or foul.
We played football on unmarked fields with anywhere from two to who knows how many guys on a team. There were almost never enough for eleven on a side.
We threw rocks, climbed trees, walked on the tops of fences, climbed cliffs, scrambled through bushes and got our clothes covered up with stick-tights and cockle burrs, and rode bikes at breakneck speeds without ever giving thought to helmets (which was easy because they didn't exist).
Most boys carried pocket knives. I began carrying a pocket knife with me to school when I was six years old (and still have that first knife). The teachers knew about the knives and were not worried. If a kid took out his knife during class and played with it or carved on a desk, the teacher would take the knife away and put it in her desk. The kid did not question the authority of the teacher to do that, and the teacher had no fear that the kid would stab or cut her with the knife. That sort of stuff was strictly out of bounds because we were TRAINED.
As a teen ager I even had a small forge with a hand-cranked blower. It would easily melt hardened steel. I forged my own hunting knives, finished them and fitted them with handles. No one supervised the fire or the forging, grinding, tempering, sawing, etc. If you were TRAINED in the basics of work safety, fair play and proper behavior, you could apply them in almost any situation without needing to have someone direct your every move. Parents taught kids this way and so did most school teachers and Sunday School teachers.
I have to be honest and say that there were occasional exceptions. An elementary school mate of mine, Rip Nix, led the unsupervised life. He built an airplane from two crossed boards, some nails and a rope and launched himself down the metal roof of his father's garage. He broke his arm and learned some about gravity. But even Rip was not a lost cause. Though he was a footballer and not much for book learning, he still managed to marry June Carter before she later ended up with Johnny Cash. And he invented the pickup truck Line-A-Bed and sold out for about five million dollars.
Somehow, I believe a trained but then unsupervised childhood produces achievers. Among my relatively small circle of acquaintances in our little country high school, I know of guys with military careers, a college professor, an airline pilot, successful business owners, an artist and illustrator, a high level research biologist, a university president and the guy who developed the solid rocket booster fuel for the space shuttle.
It was not a common thing, but bringing a gun to school was not a problem either. When I was fourteen and in the eighth grade, I took an old Winchester Model 1892 hex barrel .22 pump rifle with me on the school bus, took it into our classroom and traded it to a guy named John Ford for a big German flag someone had "liberated" during World War II. No one shrieked and ran out of the room or called the cops or even the principal. It was just a trade.
Quite a few of us had our own guns and would go alone or in pairs out into the woods to hunt or do target shooting. My dad bought me (us, really) a .22 bolt action single-shot when I was eight years old and taught me how to shoot it. By the time I was nine my mother would allow me to go out along into the woods with it, but with only one round of ammunition. No matter how far away I was when I shot that round, I had to return to the house and ask my mother if I could please have another one. It sounds like a bit of a hassle, but it had the effect of making me a rather good shooter. I acquired some other guns along the way through trading. I converted one tiny .22 rifle that I bought for twenty-five cents into a bolt action pistol. When I was fourteen, I used money that I had saved from working and bought a Mossberg .22 tubular magazine bolt action rifle. Long before that, my mother would allow me to take a whole box of fifty rounds with me on my ramblings, but having a rifle that would hold up to thirty rounds was very neat. I still have that rifle.
Also at fourteen I began working summer jobs and would have to be up early, walk to the highway, catch a Trailways bus into Nashville, walk a few blocks and be at work by 7:45.
After working all day, I reversed the process and somehow made it up the long hill from the highway to our house with visions of supper in my head.
Nobody ever molested me in the bus station or on the bus. By the time I was sixteen or seventeen, I probably wouldn't even have minded if one of the pretty twenty-something office workers who rode that Trailways bus had given it a go, but that never happened.
Most boys and girls back then learned to drive pretty early. Some kids at ten years old operated tractors on farms. Large numbers of kids had "learners' permits" at age fourteen and were allowed to drive to school and to work if they had jobs. I was "slow," I suppose, since I never had a learner's permit and only got a regular driver's license when I was sixteen. Probably 99+ percent of the cars back then were stick shift, so that is what everyone learned to drive. There were no seat belts, and most cars came without turn signals. Even heaters were optional equipment, and air conditioning was unknown.,
So what is the point of telling all of this old-timey stuff and maybe even a bit of reminiscing? Well, I am assuming that if you grew up even as late as the sixties or even the early seventies, you had more or less similar experiences. I am seriously trying to figure out what happened. How could things go along for decades or centuries with safe communities, responsible, trustworthy kids who studied and worked and said "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am" and didn't stab or shoot people even though they had the means, who could entertain themselves for hours playing sports or making things or just hanging out, all without supervision? Then, almost over night, within fifteen or twenty years things went to pot. We allow no knives or guns or even table cutlery at school. No screwdrivers or pliers. There are metal detectors at many schools and cops (They call them "resource officers.") at almost every school. When I was a kid you could go for weeks and never see a cop. The change has been almost as if someone turned on a switch. Kids are molested, abused and murdered. Kids beat up other kids, shoot school bus drivers and get drunk. Kids have kids. And a lot of kids can't read or think. I know governments are putting fluorides in the water and that's not good, but there must be something more than that to cause all the bad stuff that goes on these days. It's as though it's not in the water, but in the psyches of everyone.
Now I'm not dumb. I do have some ideas about things that could have caused some of these negative changes, but I would really like to hear what you think has done this to our people. There are almost no coincidences of that type. We are talking about cause and effect. It is pretty easy to observe the effect. Let's see if we can nail down the cause. And wouldn't it be great if we could find that switch and turn it off?
whatreallyhappened.com/forum/14291 (external - login to view)
 
Scott Free
#2
When I was a kid there were perverts all over the place so I have no idea what this piece is complaining about.

I had one pervert try and abduct me. He pulled up in a corvette and yelled "get in!" Luckily I was an anarchist even at that age and didn't respond well to orders. I told him where to go and flipped him the bird. I was always running away from pervs - male and female. Maybe the author was ugly?

I think it's great that society has become more aware of these people.
 
karrie
#3
Things changed because things changed.

For one thing, divorce became acceptable, no longer a mark of shame, so Sally could finally leave and stop her husband touching her kids without fear of being forever viewed as evil and wrong for divorcing her husband. She didn't have to sit in silence and let it happen anymore.

For another thing, women became just as capable of earning a living and supporting their families as men are, so Little Jimmy no longer had to hide what Uncle Barry did to him out of fear of putting his cousins and aunt into the poor house.

As those things changed, people were more able to talk about the horrid things that were happening behind closed doors, and public discourse became focused on the pedophile, rather than the stigma of having been abused. Knowledge is power, and society has embraced it.

If someone wants to sit and reminisce about the 'good old days' when kids suffered their abuse in silence so that others got to run around with a false sense of security, I kind of pity them.
 
Stretch
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Things changed because things changed.

For one thing, divorce became acceptable, no longer a mark of shame, so Sally could finally leave and stop her husband touching her kids without fear of being forever viewed as evil and wrong for divorcing her husband. She didn't have to sit in silence and let it happen anymore.

For another thing, women became just as capable of earning a living and supporting their families as men are, so Little Jimmy no longer had to hide what Uncle Barry did to him out of fear of putting his cousins and aunt into the poor house.

As those things changed, people were more able to talk about the horrid things that were happening behind closed doors, and public discourse became focused on the pedophile, rather than the stigma of having been abused. Knowledge is power, and society has embraced it.

If someone wants to sit and reminisce about the 'good old days' when kids suffered their abuse in silence so that others got to run around with a false sense of security, I kind of pity them.


you know.....it wont be long till we look back on current times and refer to them as 'the good old days'................
 
karrie
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by StretchView Post

you know.....it wont be long till we look back on current times and refer to them as 'the good old days'................

The beauty of critical thinking is that even if we can miss an era, miss our youth, miss our naivety, at least we can acknowledge that there was an undercurrent we may have been totally unaware of. I miss living on our farm for example. I miss the freedom of running wherever we wanted, whenever we wanted. But, looking back with a critical view and the knowledge I've gained, dad was literally dying from the stress of it, and the reason we had so much freedom is that both had to work two jobs to support the failing farm, and dad would spend the time he wasn't working, drinking himself to death. Ah... the good old days.
 
Tyr
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Things changed because things changed.

For one thing, divorce became acceptable, no longer a mark of shame, so Sally could finally leave and stop her husband touching her kids without fear of being forever viewed as evil and wrong for divorcing her husband. She didn't have to sit in silence and let it happen anymore.

For another thing, women became just as capable of earning a living and supporting their families as men are, so Little Jimmy no longer had to hide what Uncle Barry did to him out of fear of putting his cousins and aunt into the poor house.

As those things changed, people were more able to talk about the horrid things that were happening behind closed doors, and public discourse became focused on the pedophile, rather than the stigma of having been abused. Knowledge is power, and society has embraced it.

If someone wants to sit and reminisce about the 'good old days' when kids suffered their abuse in silence so that others got to run around with a false sense of security, I kind of pity them.


Knowledge is power, but we still have abuses and circumstances whereby people scream is their right to privacy or expression is being impunged

Aunt Ruth may be foundling little Jimmy or the Mom may be guily of sexual abuse, but portions of society tend to draw back and become even more cloistered and secretive when they know what they are doing is socially unacceptable, i.e.

When delegates from the Southern Baptist Convention met in June, they went on record to admit that sex abuse is reprehensible, sinful—and happening. That said, they refused pressure to create a database that would screen church workers and, presumably, prevent pedophiles from re-employment. It's a blow to many congregations around the country, as local churches are forced to rely on mere instinct (or God's will?) in the hiring and screening of their staffs.
 
talloola
#7
One thing I wonder about, because the perverts are out there in 'almost' full veiw
of everyone, and all over the internet, why has nothing been done about them.
They seem proud of their stand in life, admit they are sexually attracted to kids,
and many of them hurt them in other ways as well.
Yet, they are all over, and society lives amongst them.
Yes, many things were in secret back then, and good that more is brought to the
surface, but is it any better because of it? They are still there, doing what they do to
others, if not their families, who left them, they do it to other families. Sure the
wives can work and become more financially independent and on their own, but
the abusers haven't gone anywhere, and seem happy that they can come out too,
and advertise their horridness on the internet, and now have bigger and better
ways to entice their victims to them.
Not much punishment for them, in jail and out, back on the street, no cure, so
they can't wait to get back in business again, they have lots of contacts, easy
to communicate with each other, 'all over the world', and we sit, knowing more,
and doing less.
 
SirJosephPorter
#8
Stretch, I think your whole premise that things have gone wrong since the 50s is fatally flawed. You sound to me like an old timer, an old codger one finds in almost every bar, who would cheerfully explain to anybody (anybody who would buy him a drink, that is) how things have gone to the dogs.

In many respects, we live in a much better, much more enlightened, more compassionate society that we ever did in 50, 60, or even 70s.

Very few people were mean or bad to kids

That is where you are wrong. Pedophilia was as prevalent in those days as it is today, only in those days it was well hidden. People took their cues from the churches. The churches suppressed the pedophilia; they simply transferred pedophiles to another church to avoid a scandal.

Similarly, if a child was foolish enough in those days to tell his parents about being abused by uncle or grandpa, the parents simply wouldn’t believe him. In the rare cases that they did believe him, they would hush it up, at most see to it that the child is not left alone with the uncle or with grandpa. No wonder pedophilia was virtually unknown in old days, nobody talked about it.

Corporal punishment in those days used to be so severe that it will be only considered child abuse today. So sure, most people were mean to kids in old days, only they had a different definition of mean (e.g., a father beating his son senseless with a belt was not considered mean).

None of the adult men at the "Y" leered at us or tried to touch us. We just took our swimming lessons and left.

Ad just how do you know that? If any adult touched a kid, do you really think you would know about it? No way. When church can keep pedophilia by thousands of priests under wrap, when nobody knew about it, what makes you think that you would know if any kid had been touched by an adult?

How could things go along for decades or centuries with safe communities, responsible, trustworthy kids who studied and worked and said "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am"

Sure adults taught children to be polite. A father would teach his son to say ‘yes ma’am’ to women. Then when he went to his job as the Dean of Admissions at a university, he would have no problem throwing that application by a woman to an engineering or medical school into a trash bin, without even looking at it. After all, women did not belong in medical or engineering school; they belonged in the kitchen and bedroom.

Or a man would teach his son to be polite to men, say ‘yes, sir’. At night the same man would don a white sheet, a hood and go out and lynch a couple of blacks. Them nig---s are getting more and more uppity every day.

In short those were very unpleasant times. Racism, sexism was rampant. Blacks knew their place at the back of the bus. Women knew their place, in the kitchen; gays knew their place in the closet.

I remember reading a news item a few years ago, this happened in 1962. It seems a woman from USA went to Sweden and got an abortion. When she came back, she was fired form her job, evicted from her apartment and her parents disowned her.

This may be your idea of a paradise, in my opinion; it is pure, living Hell. I wouldn’t’ go back if somebody paid me handsomely to do it.

Don’t’ get me wrong, if you were a white male, you were sitting pretty; you were at the top of the heap. Life was easy; all the breaks were given to you, you benefited from affirmative action (nobody would hire a black over you). For anybody else, 40s and 50s were a pure nightmare.
 
TenPenny
#9
Sure, the good old days, when teachers were free to beat children for being left handed. When anyone who didn't comprehend their schoolwork was considered stupid, and eventually became a manual laborer, no matter how smart.When everyone smoked everywhere. Back when car windshields weren't made of layered glass, and there were no seatbelts, so even a minor accident was bloody and fatal.Yup, sure was a good time.
 
Scott Free
#10
I'm sorry stretch, I thought what you wrote was an article posted from somewhere else. I wasn't meaning to be rude to you.
 
talloola
#11
Yes, those horrid traits that were kept under raps back then, were definitely a
stain on the society of that day, but those things have not gone away, they are
alive and well, and yes, we have progressed in many ways, and that's good, but
there were many aspects of life back then that were much better than they are
today.
If one doesn't dwell on what was not so good back then and see what was better, then
I do agree with stretch, I was there, in a very disfunctional home as a child, but
alchohol was the only abusive substance then, no drugs around at all, now there
are many. Behavior in schools was so much better, lots of respect for teachers,
and inmates werent' running the institution, the teachers were.
The language of teenagers is disgusting now, I don't like it at all. Back then
teenage girls talked in quite a nice way, the guys swore, but they checked to
see who was around before they blurted out 'certain' words, not now.
There is a park in my home town that we spent most of our childhood in, the
playground, swimming pool, at the ball game or just hanging out, but now,
no one goes into that park alone, it is full of druggies and muggers, I loved
that park.
Sure we can trash the secrets of the past, but it would take a longer post to
do the same re: todays problems.
Some things have improved, many things have deterierated.
 
SirJosephPorter
#12
Talloola, the past always seems romantic, idyllic. The shroud of time covers many sins. People tend to forget, memories fade away. We only remember what we want to remember, only the good things about the past, while forgetting the terrible things (and there were plenty of these in days gone by).

I have had this experience many times, if I drive into a town late into night, when everything is closed, most people are sleeping and the town is in the dark, the town seems mysterious, romantic, since it is covered in a shroud of darkness. What wonderful, glorious secrets may be hidden under the darkness? It is the same when looking at the past, 40 or 50 years ago. Seen through rose colored glasses, with all the sins covered by time, by fading memories, everything in the past looks rosy.

Objective facts, however, don’t support that. Every kind of discrimination (racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, in places, even anti-Catholicism) was rampant in old days. The society was puritanical, rigid in the extreme. All kinds of dark secrets (pedophilia, wife battering, child abuse etc.) were swept under the rug, rarely talked about.

So we are definitely socially better off (and more compassionate) today. We are also economically better off. We are more prosperous, possess many more gadgets compared to 50 years ago, we are healthier, we live longer. The life expectancy today is much longer. Infant mortality is a lot less compared to the ‘good old days’.

Culturally, we are much richer today. 50 years ago, people knew only one culture, white middle class Protestant culture. Now we are exposed to many different cultures, including many different cuisines. The ready availability of Mexican, French, Chinese, Indian, Mediterranean etc. cuisines today could only be dreamed about 50 years ago.

By most indicators we are better off today. Of course it is not all sweetness and roses, it never is. With a lot of good comes some bad. It is all part of the package.

However, to trash the present and to glorify the past because of some disadvantages in today’s life, while psychologically understandable, is not borne out by concrete, objective facts.
 
VanIsle
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by StretchView Post

READER: WHY DID THINGS CHANGE?
I don't get it. There have been crooked, dirty dealing, child molesting, evil people all down through the ages. And a few bad kids. But they were not everywhere--on every bus, at the grocery store, teaching school, preaching at a local church.
When I was a kid, most us us were TRAINED. That is, we were taught how to behave properly, what to do and what not to do, how to be respectful, how to handle money, how to shoot a gun and handle an axe and a knife, how to wash and dry dishes, how to make beds and a whole lot of other stuff. We were required to do our homework. Otherwise, we were pretty much left alone.
Most older people were ?old. Some were gruff, some were kind. Some were misguided prudes or martinets. These could be problems, but they were generally not evil problems. Very few people were mean or bad to kids.
Mr. Pope Ellis, the toothless school bus driver when I was in first grade, just drove the school bus. He did not overly concern himself with discipline. If Arthur whatshisname had actually beaten me up on the bus (which he regularly threatened to do) I suspect Mr. Ellis would have just driven the bus, unless things turned really bad.
And if you were a bus rider but you decided one day not to ride the bus home but go home with another kid or go to the store or just walk home., nobody checked or cared. You were assumed to know what to do and to be able to decide for yourself or do what your parents...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
I could write about my growing up years and they would mimic yours almost to a Tee! I just did it in Canada. No one wants to admit and and though I've brought it up before and had people knock my belief, what happened is Mom's went to work. Kids are no longer supervised. Parents don't know where their kids are. I never saw or knew of any pervert while I was growing up. We used to sit down by the river where an old hobo would have a little fire going and we would listen to all the stories he had to tell and then listen to the next one. We left home in the morning and came home for dinner. Mom was always there. Someone's Mom was always near. We had no fear of strangers and no reason to have fear. More reason to have fear at home if we did something we shouldn't have. As always - time to leave for work! Happy New Year All.
 
mit
#14
We create our own prisons for the most part - for us and our children - I have 3 beautiful girls - People say - Aren't you worried about them - Boy's will be knocking at your door - How can you let them walk downtown by themselves?

My wife and I have decided that our kids need to be respectful to adults - cautious but not afraid of them - They need responsibilities and they know there are consequences for their actions - Good and Bad - Sort of like giving them their freedom and a roadmap to help.

We do not live in fear of a pedophile lurking in the corner. We do not track their internet use or put the GPS feature on their cell phone (Only the oldest has one)

We do not censor their TV or what they read - (They love to read)

And yet according to all reports we have some damn fine kids - Teachers Friends and neighbours all say so -

I know I can not duplicate my childhood experiences from my rural/urban youth - We could travel for several miles along the creek in our backyard and never meet a fence (Not bad for Southern Ontario) Frogs - Snakes and Fish were our interests - Tree Forts - Role playing (War games were the rage) We had carnivals - Tonka Trucks and Pong - I would trade my left arm to expose my kids to half of it - I would have traded my right arm to have been able to do half the things my kids can do when I was their age. It is not that things have changed for the better or worse it is that things change - Crap happens and then you die - It is what you do with the life you have that is important
 
TenPenny
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by IslandpacificView Post

I could write about my growing up years and they would mimic yours almost to a Tee! I just did it in Canada. No one wants to admit and and though I've brought it up before and had people knock my belief, what happened is Mom's went to work. Kids are no longer supervised. Parents don't know where their kids are. I never saw or knew of any pervert while I was growing up. We used to sit down by the river where an old hobo would have a little fire going and we would listen to all the stories he had to tell and then listen to the next one. We left home in the morning and came home for dinner. Mom was always there. Someone's Mom was always near. We had no fear of strangers and no reason to have fear. More reason to have fear at home if we did something we shouldn't have. As always - time to leave for work! Happy New Year All.

The root of society's evil is that women work?I didn't realize that it was so simple. Thanks for pointing that out.
 
mit
#16
TenPenny - For over 40 years I felt that I was blessed that my Mom had chosen to stay home with us kids - I felt that she loved being there for us and the neighbourhood kids whose parents both worked - She was the rock of the neighbourhood - One childhood friend nicknamed her EarthAngel - When we were clearing out her house as she had sold it to move in to an apartment, Her and I were standing in front of the picture window that faced the neighbourhood and she watched one of our old neighbours driving by and she reminiced about standing there in front of the window - doing ironing or something and watching her female counterparts driving off to work in their new car and nice clothes and wishing that she too had a job instead of being stuck home with us kids and whatever neighbourhood kid was sick because her neighbours thought that my mom wasn't doing anything important. Boy did my bubble burst!

I realize that she did do a sacrifice and from my view of my brothers and sister as adults we benefited from it - My sister and I both had a stay at home parent for our kids and there is a difference - It is unfortunate that the economic realities of a single income family are not as positive as the results - It is not that a Mom should stay home during the kids formulative years but that a parent is there.
Our tax structure should be tweaked so that stay at home parents are not penalized for having one income. Subsidized day care - tax reductions for childcare costs - are all there to support 2 income families - there is nothing to support a one income family only penalties.
 
SirJosephPorter
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

The root of society's evil is that women work?I didn't realize that it was so simple. Thanks for pointing that out.

Not only that, Tenpenny. Blacks are no longer content to sit at the back of the bus; gays are demanding equal rights, same as everybody else.

Women want to get education, want to compete with men (especially white men) in the workplace. Contraception, abortion are easily available.

Is it any wonder that the world is going to the dogs? The good old days were presumably much better. Women were in the kitchen, everybody knew their proper place, below the white man. Now there was a nice, orderly, happy and contented society. All these new fangled ideas of equality, diversity, minorities having equal rights with the majority, these things have led the world straight to Hell.

At least that is the conservative wisdom.
 
talloola
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Talloola, the past always seems romantic, idyllic. The shroud of time covers many sins. People tend to forget, memories fade away. We only remember what we want to remember, only the good things about the past, while forgetting the terrible things (and there were plenty of these in days gone by).
I have had this experience many times, if I drive into a town late into night, when everything is closed, most people are sleeping and the town is in the dark, the town seems mysterious, romantic, since it is covered in a shroud of darkness. What wonderful, glorious secrets may be hidden under the darkness? It is the same when looking at the past, 40 or 50 years ago. Seen through rose colored glasses, with all the sins covered by time, by fading memories, everything in the past looks rosy.
Objective facts, however, don’t support that. Every kind of discrimination (racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, in places, even anti-Catholicism) was rampant in old days. The society was puritanical, rigid in the extreme. All kinds of dark secrets (pedophilia, wife battering, child abuse etc.) were swept under the rug, rarely talked about.
So we are definitely socially better off (and more compassionate) today. We are also economically better off. We are more prosperous, possess many more gadgets compared to 50 years ago, we are healthier, we live longer. The life expectancy today is much longer. Infant mortality is a lot less compared to the...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
My only point was, in my post, is the accent on all the bad of the past, and
leaving out the good, there was lots of good, I was there, I remember it.
It is innacurate to point out all of the bad things, as though life back then
was completely unfair, it wasn't completely unfair, it had it's bad side, and
it had it's very good upside, much of the down side has been changed,
especially for women, and that is good, but along with that, the present
has it's many downsides too, and now we have to recognize that, and do
something about it, it is not better now or worse, just different.
 
TenPenny
#19
Quote:

It is not that a Mom should stay home during the kids formulative years but that a parent is there.

I think it's more important that parents care, and are involved with their kids. There are plenty of stay at home parents who don't pay any attention to their kids, and don't care what they do.There are plenty of working parents who do care, and are involved, and their kids are fine.It's not that mothers work now, it's that people are selfish and don't bother to take the time to raise their kids. 'It's all about me, and my needs. I'm a baby boomer, and I'll do whatever I want to. To hell with everyone else.' That's what the problem is, not working mothers. Even back in the good old days, it was only middle class mothers who stayed at home, leading the ideal existence of the black and white tv, suburban image. Upper class kids were raised by nannies. Lower class women had to work, usually at menial labour.
 
JLM
#20
It's funny but when I think back to child hood there were a couple of "odd characters" in the neighbourhood, one who my mother was deathly afraid of any contact with me because she said he had "T.B." My mother is no longer here, and I never thought to ask her after I reached adulthood, I've often wondered if it was a peculiar strain of "T.B.".
 
Machjo
#21
Remember the Crusades? Civilization has undergone cycles since the beginning of time. The Jewish civilization followed by its degradation. The Pax Romana followed by the dark ages. The Golden Age of Islam followed by its fall. Civilizations are born, mature, grow old, and give birth to a new civilization and then die, with the new civilization repeating the cycle. As to where we stand at this point I'm not sure. I get the impression that the old civilization of nationalism is growing old and about to die while the new-born League fo Nations, UN, etc. is growing into a new civilization. Giving birth to a new world order, as in any delivery of a newborn babe, is painful. Throughout history, as the old civilization gave birth to a new, it went through travails. All transition points throughout history are painful.
 
mit
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

I think it's more important that parents care, and are involved with their kids. There are plenty of stay at home parents who don't pay any attention to their kids, and don't care what they do.There are plenty of working parents who do care, and are involved, and their kids are fine.It's not that mothers work now, it's that people are selfish and don't bother to take the time to raise their kids. 'It's all about me, and my needs. I'm a baby boomer, and I'll do whatever I want to. To hell with everyone else.' That's what the problem is, not working mothers. Even back in the good old days, it was only middle class mothers who stayed at home, leading the ideal existence of the black and white tv, suburban image. Upper class kids were raised by nannies. Lower class women had to work, usually at menial labour.

TenPenny - Sadly I must agree with your statement - My point is that there are economic decisions that fall in to play in regards to child rearing. Our governments feel that to meet the needs of our children we need government regulated and funded childcare - geared to income and subsidized housing and a whole hammock full of inefficient initiatives to keep the low income earners at a level that keep them quiet and underemployed.
What we need is income geared to life - fewer taxes - fewer services - more responsibilities placed on people and parents. Providing a tax break for piano lessons and hockey does not make a child a productive citizen! It has created a shrinking middle class and a growing number of hands reaching for a hand out - This is not how you build a country - this is how you keep it's citizens in line.
We are a poorer nation for it.
 
Unforgiven
#23
Change is constant.

I suppose the view from the fifties to now will show many many things but perhaps the most significant aspect would be the population boom.

Take a small town and you might find a pedophile lurking in their midst. Take a thousand small towns and pile them into one urban centre and you have a thousand pedophiles in one place. Where did all the creeps come from?

Upon that dump the concept of suburbia. That small town butted up against the urban centre so that the new commuter can feel that small town feeling again. Now add a thousand suburbs around the urban centre and at this point call it sprawl. For the urban centre has encompassed the suburbs that surround it and you have a mega city.

Imagine all those creeps in one place. Well it's no wonder children aren't safe anymore, hell no one is. Now let's add to the mix, the ability to have all the news within moments of it happening any where any time. Find news boring, how about what bleeds leads? You don't find death and murder boring do you? Murder and death? Death and murder?

While in the small town there may be a death or two a year. A murder might come along rarely. Simply multiply that by thousands and you have a nice regular daily occurrence.

Maybe we ought to learn some manners or spread out a little until we do.
 
mit
#24
In the old days pedophiles were more likely to be given a thorough beating and kicked out of town rather than a warm place in jail and a court system full of loopholes and early releases.
 
SirJosephPorter
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by mitView Post

In the old days pedophiles were more likely to be given a thorough beating and kicked out of town rather than a warm place in jail and a court system full of loopholes and early releases.

MIT, really? You mean like the thousands of Catholic priest pedophiles, who were beaten up and kicked out of the town?
 
darkbeaver
#26
I haven't seen it mentioned in the thread but there is something that is radically different from the good old days and that is communications, the speed of and the quantity. I think most of us had or have fond memories of the times and conditions we were not really fully aware of. The wedge between nature and man is at this time wider then it has ever been, much of what was discussed in the article as learning experiances has been replaced with machine time and we are swamped with choice.
 
mit
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

MIT, really? You mean like the thousands of Catholic priest pedophiles, who were beaten up and kicked out of the town?

THOUSANDS? - I have asked before for statistics on the percentage of Catholic Priests that were pedophiles versus the general population - And yes - I am sure some were given a bruising before they were sent cruising for another town be they a scout leader - hockey coach - protestant minister or Catholic Priest
 
JLM
#28
"In many respects, we live in a much better, much more enlightened, more compassionate society that we ever did in 50, 60, or even 70s."- In a FEW, respects, very few, things for the most part have actually gone to the dogs over the years and it's not hard to pinpoint the junctures at which the changes took place- late 40s advent of T.V., 60s credit cards went on the rampage, 1968 the start of the "do you own thing" mentality and Trudeau becoming P.M. a double whammy that year, 1973 (in British Columbia) removal of the strap from the schools, 1976 abolishment of the death penalty, 1985 Lyin' Brians takes the helm.
 
Said1
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by mitView Post

THOUSANDS? - I have asked before for statistics on the percentage of Catholic Priests that were pedophiles versus the general population - And yes - I am sure some were given a bruising before they were sent cruising for another town be they a scout leader - hockey coach - protestant minister or Catholic Priest

If priests had been dealt with appropriately, there would be no need for inquires into how church officials handled this matter. Some were even sent on spiritual sabbaticals in Rome.
 
mit
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

"In many respects, we live in a much better, much more enlightened, more compassionate society that we ever did in 50, 60, or even 70s."- In a FEW, respects, very few, things for the most part have actually gone to the dogs over the years and it's not hard to pinpoint the junctures at which the changes took place- late 40s advent of T.V., 60s credit cards went on the rampage, 1968 the start of the "do you own thing" mentality and Trudeau becoming P.M. a double whammy that year, 1973 (in British Columbia) removal of the strap from the schools, 1976 abolishment of the death penalty, 1985 Lyin' Brians takes the helm.

Watch an episode of "All in the Family" - Every ethnic reference was used by Norman Lear - Archie was loved and pitied - people cheered when he was put in his place by Meathead or Sammy Davis Jr. - I doubt the show could have gotten through the censors today - Then you look at "The Family Guy" - or "The Simpson's" - A much darker humour I think but available as an after school show - Have we matured or not?
 

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