Mass'Debater
Posts: 2,738 
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 13th, 2008, 11:53 AM
This was started in another thread below in regards to the younger brother, so I figured this additional information should be added into another thread to seperate the two topics from one another:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...512?hub=Canada
Unlike other bounties offered by the U.S. for specific individuals, this one was kept secret.
"Clearly the U.S. wished to maintain its ability to deny any involvement in what it knew would happen to Mr. Khadr,''
This was started in another thread below in regards to the younger brother, so I figured this additional information should be added into another thread to seperate the two topics from one another:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...512?hub=Canada
Quote:
Just to point out again:
TORONTO -- Newly disclosed documents show Canada knew the United States secretly paid Pakistan $500,000 to capture Canadian citizen Abdullah Khadr in what his lawyers said Monday was another notorious example of Washington's outsourcing of torture.
The U.S., which is seeking to have Khadr extradited from Canada on charges he bought weapons for al-Qaida and plotted to kill American troops in Afghanistan, opted to use Pakistan to do its dirty work, the lawyers said.
"All the mistreatment that Mr. Khadr experienced in Pakistan is the U.S. government's responsibility,'' Nate Whitling, one of Khadr's lawyers, said in an interview from Edmonton.
"Now we know that they paid Pakistan to arrest him and they knew full well what would happen to him.''
At the request of the Americans, the Canadian government had sought to keep the information about the payment secret on the grounds that it would damage Canada's interests.
However, it was released publicly under court orders Monday following the lapse of an appeal period by the Crown.
"It is clear that Canadian officials were told that a bounty had been paid shortly after (Khadr's) capture and included that information, presumably considered reliable, in briefing their superiors,'' Federal Court Justice Richard Mosley said in his ruling.
"The sole justification that was provided to the court as to why publication of the information should be prohibited is that the (U.S.) does not want the information disclosed.''
Mosley wrote that Khadr should be allowed to raise the bounty at his extradition hearing, and said there would be no harm to Canada's national security or international relations in doing so.
Until the ruling, Khadr's lawyers had been barred from putting the information before the extradition judge.
Khadr was returned to Canada on Dec. 7, 2005, after spending a year in custody in Pakistan. He was arrested shortly after his return at the request of the Americans, who want him to stand trial in the U.S.
Whitling said the U.S. had tried to wash its hands of what happened to Khadr in Pakistan, even while relying on a self-incriminating statement he made in Pakistani custody to demand his extradition.
Khadr's lawyers have plans to argue
Human rights reports by the U.S. State Department point to a routine and systemic practice of arbitrarily detaining prisoners wanted for national security matters in isolation and torturing them to elicit confessions.
"So when they give Pakistan a wink and a nudge and say, `Pick this guy up for half-a-million bucks for national security reasons,' they know exactly what's going to happen to him,'' Whitling said.
Khadr's lawyers now plan to argue the statement he gave to the FBI in Pakistan, and a similar one later in Toronto, should be thrown out because they are the product of illegal detention and torture.
"The FBI goes in there, while he's under these deplorable conditions, and they interrogate him while there's a Pakistani intelligence official sitting in the room with him,'' Whitling said.
"He's obviously acutely vulnerable, and they get him to say what had already been elicited from him in earlier interrogations.''
Similarly, shortly after his return to Toronto, American intelligence officers simply got Khadr to reaffirm the written statement he'd provided in Pakistan.
The two statements essentially make up the extradition case against Khadr.
Unlike other bounties offered by the U.S. for specific individuals, this one was kept secret.
"Clearly the U.S. wished to maintain its ability to deny any involvement in what it knew would happen to Mr. Khadr,'' his lawyers said.
International human-rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have condemned the American practice of paying bounties to countries with poor human rights records.
"(Pakistan's) security forces tortured and abused persons, often to elicit confessions,'' and "police and security forces held prisoners incommunicado and refused to provide information on their whereabouts, particularly in terrorism and national security cases,'' the U.S. State Department noted in 2004.
Khadr was expected in court Tuesday to set a further court date.
The U.S., which is seeking to have Khadr extradited from Canada on charges he bought weapons for al-Qaida and plotted to kill American troops in Afghanistan, opted to use Pakistan to do its dirty work, the lawyers said.
"All the mistreatment that Mr. Khadr experienced in Pakistan is the U.S. government's responsibility,'' Nate Whitling, one of Khadr's lawyers, said in an interview from Edmonton.
"Now we know that they paid Pakistan to arrest him and they knew full well what would happen to him.''
At the request of the Americans, the Canadian government had sought to keep the information about the payment secret on the grounds that it would damage Canada's interests.
However, it was released publicly under court orders Monday following the lapse of an appeal period by the Crown.
"It is clear that Canadian officials were told that a bounty had been paid shortly after (Khadr's) capture and included that information, presumably considered reliable, in briefing their superiors,'' Federal Court Justice Richard Mosley said in his ruling.
"The sole justification that was provided to the court as to why publication of the information should be prohibited is that the (U.S.) does not want the information disclosed.''
Mosley wrote that Khadr should be allowed to raise the bounty at his extradition hearing, and said there would be no harm to Canada's national security or international relations in doing so.
Until the ruling, Khadr's lawyers had been barred from putting the information before the extradition judge.
Khadr was returned to Canada on Dec. 7, 2005, after spending a year in custody in Pakistan. He was arrested shortly after his return at the request of the Americans, who want him to stand trial in the U.S.
Whitling said the U.S. had tried to wash its hands of what happened to Khadr in Pakistan, even while relying on a self-incriminating statement he made in Pakistani custody to demand his extradition.
Khadr's lawyers have plans to argue
Human rights reports by the U.S. State Department point to a routine and systemic practice of arbitrarily detaining prisoners wanted for national security matters in isolation and torturing them to elicit confessions.
"So when they give Pakistan a wink and a nudge and say, `Pick this guy up for half-a-million bucks for national security reasons,' they know exactly what's going to happen to him,'' Whitling said.
Khadr's lawyers now plan to argue the statement he gave to the FBI in Pakistan, and a similar one later in Toronto, should be thrown out because they are the product of illegal detention and torture.
"The FBI goes in there, while he's under these deplorable conditions, and they interrogate him while there's a Pakistani intelligence official sitting in the room with him,'' Whitling said.
"He's obviously acutely vulnerable, and they get him to say what had already been elicited from him in earlier interrogations.''
Similarly, shortly after his return to Toronto, American intelligence officers simply got Khadr to reaffirm the written statement he'd provided in Pakistan.
The two statements essentially make up the extradition case against Khadr.
Unlike other bounties offered by the U.S. for specific individuals, this one was kept secret.
"Clearly the U.S. wished to maintain its ability to deny any involvement in what it knew would happen to Mr. Khadr,'' his lawyers said.
International human-rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have condemned the American practice of paying bounties to countries with poor human rights records.
"(Pakistan's) security forces tortured and abused persons, often to elicit confessions,'' and "police and security forces held prisoners incommunicado and refused to provide information on their whereabouts, particularly in terrorism and national security cases,'' the U.S. State Department noted in 2004.
Khadr was expected in court Tuesday to set a further court date.
Unlike other bounties offered by the U.S. for specific individuals, this one was kept secret.
"Clearly the U.S. wished to maintain its ability to deny any involvement in what it knew would happen to Mr. Khadr,''
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,799
Location: in town
Location: in town
May 13th, 2008, 12:13 PM
Hi, Praxi;
thanks for making a distinction between the two Khadr brothers.
Since our government has been deathly silent on the Omar Khadr trial, and offered no help to him, I suspect there is much more going on via secret channels between Canada and the US. We are left in the dark and can lament and complain to no avail... it falls on deaf ears, because we citizens of Canada are not to know what is really going on... heaven forbid!... it might endanger our safety! It might compromise the shady operations of our RCMP... read the Arar case once more!!!
Hi, Praxi;
thanks for making a distinction between the two Khadr brothers.
Since our government has been deathly silent on the Omar Khadr trial, and offered no help to him, I suspect there is much more going on via secret channels between Canada and the US. We are left in the dark and can lament and complain to no avail... it falls on deaf ears, because we citizens of Canada are not to know what is really going on... heaven forbid!... it might endanger our safety! It might compromise the shady operations of our RCMP... read the Arar case once more!!!
Mass'Debater
Posts: 2,738
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 13th, 2008, 01:00 PM
Indeed... we never know about it until it's too late.
And in retrospect, many german citizens during the Nazi era didn't believe or know much about what their government was doing either (Concentration Camps and what occured inside them) until the allies forced the German civilians to burry the bodies found at them after the Germans lost.
Makes me wonder when we'll have to start burrying bodies we never knew about at the hands of our governments.
I actually just stumbled apon an interesting article in relation to Germany of that time, which I will now make a new thread about for a different purpose......
Indeed... we never know about it until it's too late.
And in retrospect, many german citizens during the Nazi era didn't believe or know much about what their government was doing either (Concentration Camps and what occured inside them) until the allies forced the German civilians to burry the bodies found at them after the Germans lost.
Makes me wonder when we'll have to start burrying bodies we never knew about at the hands of our governments.
I actually just stumbled apon an interesting article in relation to Germany of that time, which I will now make a new thread about for a different purpose......
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,899
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 13th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Did a little research on Mr. Khadr the Elder.....and no, I never confused him with his younger brother, who at least has the defense of a young age.
I was wrong on one point I made in the post on the other thread......the Americans did not release Khadr to Canada, only to try and extradite him........he was releashed to Canada directly from Pakistan
He only recently (as far as I can tell) discovered that he had been tortured in Pakistani hands.....
which would be a terrible thing, I am no fan of torture.
However, Mr. Khadr has admitted to journalists that he ran guns, that he kept forged papers, that he was involved in the aborted mission against Pakistan's president, that he attended a terrorist training camp. As far as I know, the newspapermen didn't have waterboarders with them.
I have no problem with them refusing to extradite him to the USA.....military trials for civilians are unconstitutional. that simple.
I'd ship him back to Pakisttan, but they obviously don't want him.
A nice trial for treason, followed by a hanging (if found guilty) would suit me fine, but there is little chance any jury in Canada would find him guilty....
BUT he IS our enemy. He was running guns and undertaking operations for the people responsible for killing dozens of Canadian soldiers.
If you don't think that makes him your enemy, you're living in the wrong country.
Khadr is NOT innocent. He may be not guilty, but there is a HUGE difference.
Let him go. Watch him carefully.
But to undermine our sharing of intelligence with our closest ally over this turd is outrageous....
Stupid stupid stupid.
Did a little research on Mr. Khadr the Elder.....and no, I never confused him with his younger brother, who at least has the defense of a young age.
I was wrong on one point I made in the post on the other thread......the Americans did not release Khadr to Canada, only to try and extradite him........he was releashed to Canada directly from Pakistan
He only recently (as far as I can tell) discovered that he had been tortured in Pakistani hands.....
which would be a terrible thing, I am no fan of torture.
However, Mr. Khadr has admitted to journalists that he ran guns, that he kept forged papers, that he was involved in the aborted mission against Pakistan's president, that he attended a terrorist training camp. As far as I know, the newspapermen didn't have waterboarders with them.
I have no problem with them refusing to extradite him to the USA.....military trials for civilians are unconstitutional. that simple.
I'd ship him back to Pakisttan, but they obviously don't want him.
A nice trial for treason, followed by a hanging (if found guilty) would suit me fine, but there is little chance any jury in Canada would find him guilty....
BUT he IS our enemy. He was running guns and undertaking operations for the people responsible for killing dozens of Canadian soldiers.
If you don't think that makes him your enemy, you're living in the wrong country.
Khadr is NOT innocent. He may be not guilty, but there is a HUGE difference.
Let him go. Watch him carefully.
But to undermine our sharing of intelligence with our closest ally over this turd is outrageous....
Stupid stupid stupid.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,799
Location: in town
Location: in town
May 13th, 2008, 01:31 PM
You are absolutely right, Praxi, about the German people,
I wonder, if living through the war and then ten years later leaving Germany to live and work, visit and travel through all the Scandinavian countries, until finally settling here in Canada, has made me more aware of the oneness of all people?
I hate wars and can not understand how intelligent people, countries, can still plan and engage in wars... after that devastating Second World War!! Has it rather desensitized people?
You are absolutely right, Praxi, about the German people,
Quote:
My parents had no idea until it was over!! But then, we were little folks, lived in the northern part of the country... didn't know any Jews or other people in the know. At least that was my impression as a child under ten.
And in retrospect, many German citizens during the Nazi era didn't believe or know much about what their government was doing either (Concentration Camps and what occurred inside them) until the allies forced the German civilians to burry the bodies found at them after the Germans lost.
I wonder, if living through the war and then ten years later leaving Germany to live and work, visit and travel through all the Scandinavian countries, until finally settling here in Canada, has made me more aware of the oneness of all people?
I hate wars and can not understand how intelligent people, countries, can still plan and engage in wars... after that devastating Second World War!! Has it rather desensitized people?
Mass'Debater
Posts: 2,738
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 13th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Which makes me wonder what all we would learn if all of the US's actions were exposed in the same light. None of us believe the US could do similar things that go against all of humanity, but then again.... many Germans didn't think so either. You let the government go unchecked and trusted, and all kinds of unspeakable things can happen.
Many in the US have openly admitted on camera over the years that they were and still are willing to give up many freedoms if it means they can feel more secure about their everyday lives..... the problem is that they haven't been any less secure then they were before 9/11 and they gave up all those freedoms for nothing.
Well I can't say for nothing.... we'll know what they got in return soon enough.
Quoting dancing-loon
From what I have read through various books and historians (Western and Eastern) I don't think it would have mattered where you lived in Germany, as I don't think the majority knew or believed these things were happening at the extent they were because all the "Proof" wasn't available due to "National Security." It wasn't until after the Nazi government was toppled and they lossed that everything was exposed to the full extent it was.
You are absolutely right, Praxi, about the German people,My parents had no idea until it was over!! But then, we were little folks, lived in the northern part of the country... didn't know any Jews or other people in the know. At least that was my impression as a child under ten.
Which makes me wonder what all we would learn if all of the US's actions were exposed in the same light. None of us believe the US could do similar things that go against all of humanity, but then again.... many Germans didn't think so either. You let the government go unchecked and trusted, and all kinds of unspeakable things can happen.
Quote:
I think we've been fed the "We are the Good Guys" and "We are the Heros of WWII" stories for so long, we think we couldn't do such things.... and the majority of us wouldn't/couldn't... much like many german citizens at the time wouldn't or couldn't..... but when it comes to the governments..... when all the truth comes out in the end, I feel many many people are going to be in shock to what they have allowed their governments to get away with... and all for the sake of "National Security."
I wonder, if living through the war and then ten years later leaving Germany to live and work, visit and travel through all the Scandinavian countries, until finally settling here in Canada, has made me more aware of the oneness of all people?
I hate wars and can not understand how intelligent people, countries, can still plan and engage in wars... after that devastating Second World War!! Has it rather desensitized people?
I hate wars and can not understand how intelligent people, countries, can still plan and engage in wars... after that devastating Second World War!! Has it rather desensitized people?
Many in the US have openly admitted on camera over the years that they were and still are willing to give up many freedoms if it means they can feel more secure about their everyday lives..... the problem is that they haven't been any less secure then they were before 9/11 and they gave up all those freedoms for nothing.
Well I can't say for nothing.... we'll know what they got in return soon enough.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,899
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 13th, 2008, 03:48 PM
What, they missed the attacks on Jews going back to 1933?
they didn't understand the propaganda posters?
If I remember right, DL had two brothers serving on the eastern front with the waffen SS.
Believe me, they knew. They obviously had other things to deal with, such as their own survival in a fight to the death, but they knew.
the German people can cry "we were afraid....we would have bben killed in the most horrible ways if we had spoken out", and I would have some sympathy.
"We didn't know" is crap. They might not have been counting the bodies at the camps, but they saw all the hatred, they saw the official posistions, they knew of the seizures of property, the deportations, etc etc.
They KNEW.....
or if they didn't, it was because they very carefully kept their eyes averted.
Quoting Praxius
Unfortunately, this is Bull****.
Indeed... we never know about it until it's too late.
And in retrospect, many german citizens during the Nazi era didn't believe or know much about what their government was doing either (Concentration Camps and what occured inside them) until the allies forced the German civilians to burry the bodies found at them after the Germans lost.
Makes me wonder when we'll have to start burrying bodies we never knew about at the hands of our governments.
I actually just stumbled apon an interesting article in relation to Germany of that time, which I will now make a new thread about for a different purpose......
And in retrospect, many german citizens during the Nazi era didn't believe or know much about what their government was doing either (Concentration Camps and what occured inside them) until the allies forced the German civilians to burry the bodies found at them after the Germans lost.
Makes me wonder when we'll have to start burrying bodies we never knew about at the hands of our governments.
I actually just stumbled apon an interesting article in relation to Germany of that time, which I will now make a new thread about for a different purpose......
What, they missed the attacks on Jews going back to 1933?
they didn't understand the propaganda posters?
If I remember right, DL had two brothers serving on the eastern front with the waffen SS.
Believe me, they knew. They obviously had other things to deal with, such as their own survival in a fight to the death, but they knew.
the German people can cry "we were afraid....we would have bben killed in the most horrible ways if we had spoken out", and I would have some sympathy.
"We didn't know" is crap. They might not have been counting the bodies at the camps, but they saw all the hatred, they saw the official posistions, they knew of the seizures of property, the deportations, etc etc.
They KNEW.....
or if they didn't, it was because they very carefully kept their eyes averted.
Mass'Debater
Posts: 2,738
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 13th, 2008, 08:32 PM
Be as outraged as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that it's true, and that is the way it should be.... in fact, that is the way it is.... someone start holding our governments responsible for once.
Quoting Colpy
Perhaps I'm mistaken as I'm about off to bed, but I only heard the lawyer quoted to the media and reporting things which were already talked about in the case. I don't remember reading much on himself actually talking to the media, but once again I'm going from memory, rather then re-reading at this time.
Did a little research on Mr. Khadr the Elder.....and no, I never confused him with his younger brother, who at least has the defense of a young age.
I was wrong on one point I made in the post on the other thread......the Americans did not release Khadr to Canada, only to try and extradite him........he was releashed to Canada directly from Pakistan
He only recently (as far as I can tell) discovered that he had been tortured in Pakistani hands.....
which would be a terrible thing, I am no fan of torture.
However, Mr. Khadr has admitted to journalists that he ran guns, that he kept forged papers, that he was involved in the aborted mission against Pakistan's president, that he attended a terrorist training camp. As far as I know, the newspapermen didn't have waterboarders with them.
I was wrong on one point I made in the post on the other thread......the Americans did not release Khadr to Canada, only to try and extradite him........he was releashed to Canada directly from Pakistan
He only recently (as far as I can tell) discovered that he had been tortured in Pakistani hands.....
which would be a terrible thing, I am no fan of torture.
However, Mr. Khadr has admitted to journalists that he ran guns, that he kept forged papers, that he was involved in the aborted mission against Pakistan's president, that he attended a terrorist training camp. As far as I know, the newspapermen didn't have waterboarders with them.
Quote:
Agreed.
I have no problem with them refusing to extradite him to the USA.....military trials for civilians are unconstitutional. that simple.
Quote:
Well if Ms. Martin can get released within days of arriving in Canada, anythings possible.
I'd ship him back to Pakisttan, but they obviously don't want him.
A nice trial for treason, followed by a hanging (if found guilty) would suit me fine, but there is little chance any jury in Canada would find him guilty....
A nice trial for treason, followed by a hanging (if found guilty) would suit me fine, but there is little chance any jury in Canada would find him guilty....
Quote:
Well we're also taking part, hand in hand, with a war along side the US who actually helped create, fund and supply the "Enemy" we're fighting... how screwed up is that? Regardless, he's still a Canadian Citizen. You can't play by some of the rules you pick and choose, you either play by all of them, or you're no better then they are...
BUT he IS our enemy. He was running guns and undertaking operations for the people responsible for killing dozens of Canadian soldiers.
Quote:
I have different views of what "Enemy" is.
If you don't think that makes him your enemy, you're living in the wrong country.
Quote:
It's got nothing to do with just this turd, it has to do with any and all us citizens and how we are treated by our own governments.... plain and simple.... but certainly not stupid. And just because someone does, or is suspected of doing, something evil or against us as a nation as a whole, who's also a citizen of this nation, you or our government do not have the place, right, or the authority to simply remove their rights.
Khadr is NOT innocent. He may be not guilty, but there is a HUGE difference.
Let him go. Watch him carefully.
But to undermine our sharing of intelligence with our closest ally over this turd is outrageous....
Stupid stupid stupid.
Let him go. Watch him carefully.
But to undermine our sharing of intelligence with our closest ally over this turd is outrageous....
Stupid stupid stupid.
Be as outraged as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that it's true, and that is the way it should be.... in fact, that is the way it is.... someone start holding our governments responsible for once.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,899
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 13th, 2008, 08:36 PM
ANd.....exactly what rights did we deny Mr. Khadr? Hell, so far we refuse to extradite him to the USA.....I think he's doin' alright.
Seriously....what right was he denied by Canada?
Quoting Praxius
Actually, it appears we are not that far apart, except on the actual expose of American intelligence data.
Perhaps I'm mistaken as I'm about off to bed, but I only heard the lawyer quoted to the media and reporting things which were already talked about in the case. I don't remember reading much on himself actually talking to the media, but once again I'm going from memory, rather then re-reading at this time.
Agreed.
Well if Ms. Martin can get released within days of arriving in Canada, anythings possible.
Well we're also taking part, hand in hand, with a war along side the US who actually helped create, fund and supply the "Enemy" we're fighting... how screwed up is that? Regardless, he's still a Canadian Citizen. You can't play by some of the rules you pick and choose, you either play by all of them, or you're no better then they are...
I have different views of what "Enemy" is.
It's got nothing to do with just this turd, it has to do with any and all us citizens and how we are treated by our own governments.... plain and simple.... but certainly not stupid. And just because someone does, or is suspected of doing, something evil or against us as a nation as a whole, who's also a citizen of this nation, you or our government do not have the place, right, or the authority to simply remove their rights.
Be as outraged as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that it's true, and that is the way it should be.... in fact, that is the way it is.... someone start holding our governments responsible for once.
Agreed.
Well if Ms. Martin can get released within days of arriving in Canada, anythings possible.
Well we're also taking part, hand in hand, with a war along side the US who actually helped create, fund and supply the "Enemy" we're fighting... how screwed up is that? Regardless, he's still a Canadian Citizen. You can't play by some of the rules you pick and choose, you either play by all of them, or you're no better then they are...
I have different views of what "Enemy" is.
It's got nothing to do with just this turd, it has to do with any and all us citizens and how we are treated by our own governments.... plain and simple.... but certainly not stupid. And just because someone does, or is suspected of doing, something evil or against us as a nation as a whole, who's also a citizen of this nation, you or our government do not have the place, right, or the authority to simply remove their rights.
Be as outraged as much as you like, it doesn't change the fact that it's true, and that is the way it should be.... in fact, that is the way it is.... someone start holding our governments responsible for once.
ANd.....exactly what rights did we deny Mr. Khadr? Hell, so far we refuse to extradite him to the USA.....I think he's doin' alright.
Seriously....what right was he denied by Canada?
Mass'Debater
Posts: 2,738
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 13th, 2008, 08:41 PM
They knew as much as their government told them, just like how most of the world didn't know the extent the Nazis were brutalizing the minorities of the time..... just like how most don't know exactly what the US does.... until it's too late, and then we'll all slap our cheeks in shock and awe, saying.... Oh my, how evil, how could they treat people like that? Shame on them.... we're so much better, blah blah blah....
Quoting Colpy
As like our own propaganda posters, they were all the same and all full of sh*t.
Unfortunately, this is Bull****.
What, they missed the attacks on Jews going back to 1933?
they didn't understand the propaganda posters?
What, they missed the attacks on Jews going back to 1933?
they didn't understand the propaganda posters?
Quote:
Well no sh*t, that was sort of manditory as a citizen, much like how all Israeli's have to join the military when they hit 18..... apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
If I remember right, DL had two brothers serving on the eastern front with the waffen SS.
Quote:
Exactly how ignorant can you get? I recomend looking up some actual information on the subject and talk to some people who might have experienced it.... rather then going on your assumptions they "But they knew."
Believe me, they knew. They obviously had other things to deal with, such as their own survival in a fight to the death, but they knew.
They knew as much as their government told them, just like how most of the world didn't know the extent the Nazis were brutalizing the minorities of the time..... just like how most don't know exactly what the US does.... until it's too late, and then we'll all slap our cheeks in shock and awe, saying.... Oh my, how evil, how could they treat people like that? Shame on them.... we're so much better, blah blah blah....
Quote:
Maybe because it wasn't like that? Gee I dunno.... ya think? You have people bitching, just like we have people bitching today... people don't think they're oppressed because they're at war.... does any of this sound familiar to you? Have you read anything factual?
the German people can cry "we were afraid....we would have bben killed in the most horrible ways if we had spoken out", and I would have some sympathy.
Quote:
Yeah just like how all the Muslims are talked about, how they're all treated, how we make fun of their religion by putting cartoons in the newspaper and call it freedom of speech..... No, nothing racial about it.... not at all.... fk'n hypocritical to the core.
"We didn't know" is crap. They might not have been counting the bodies at the camps, but they saw all the hatred, they saw the official posistions, they knew of the seizures of property, the deportations, etc etc.
They KNEW.....
They KNEW.....
Quote:
Yeah.... open your eyes.
or if they didn't, it was because they very carefully kept their eyes averted.
