Judge forces 11 year old to continue chemotherapy

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Boy, 11, can't endure chemo any more, defiant father says


JILL MAHONEY
From Monday's Globe and Mail
May 12, 2008 at 3:40 AM EDT

He is angry, misses his family and is losing his reddish-brown hair. His dad says his "spirit's broken."
The 11-year-old Hamilton boy, who has leukemia, was seized by the Children's Aid Society last week and is being forced to undergo chemotherapy against both his and his family's wishes.
"We may still lose him and we may still lose against them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up," his father said in an interview yesterday.
The child's father and stepmother are exploring their legal options and friends have hired Marlys Edwardh, a prominent Toronto lawyer whose long-time law partner is veteran counsel Clayton Ruby.


full article
 

amagqira

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Oct 15, 2006
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Let me see:

1. Cure rate 80% with aggressive chemotherapy - first relapse since treatment at age 7 years.
2. The boy has severe behavioral problems due to Fetal alcohol syndrome.
3. He is 11 years old.
4. He has decided to stop aggressive treatments in favour of natural remedies, including chelation therapy, vitamins, oregano and green tea.

I believe it depends upon whether he has the insight to make such a decision, given the history, I would be surprised if he does have the insight to make such a decision.
 

tracy

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Unfortunately we have to force children to do a lot of things they don't want to. Personally, I suspect this choice has more to do with the parent's wishes than the child's. How a child reacts to treatment is usually related to his or her parent's attitude. Even the language is suspicious to me. How many 11 year olds speak of their "quality of life"?
 

Nuggler

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Unfortunately we have to force children to do a lot of things they don't want to. Personally, I suspect this choice has more to do with the parent's wishes than the child's. How a child reacts to treatment is usually related to his or her parent's attitude. Even the language is suspicious to me. How many 11 year olds speak of their "quality of life"?

Bingo, Tracy.

Not too many ADULTS with FAS speak of their "quality of life", without drooling, that is.

Sins of the fathers'?

Gotta feel sorry for the poor little shyte, realizing of course, that time and money for chemo is finite, and perhaps could be better spent. Cruel observation, eh wot?

8O
 

MikeyDB

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Sure Nugg ....

Let's continue to give judges and the "state" control over our lives..... We'll permit the judge and the state to make all our decisions for us....a prudent decision no doubt.....

When the decision is made by all these good people that a point of diminishing returns applies to the handicapped, the chronically ill, the elderly.....we'll have no problem accepting that it's simply going to cost to much to treat you and me. We've already decided that it makes more sense to jail a man for euthanizing his daughter... We've decided that we as individuals don't have the right to choose the time and manner of our departing this world...... We've decided that the ultimate authority when it comes to birth control and abortion....belongs to someone else.......

Seems to conform rather comfortably with the notion that the individual has no responsibility when it comes to anything they say or do.... We're all "victims" to genetic disease and/or hereditary conditions......"victims" to forces in nature and the universe that are so vast and powerful that there's nothing we can do about anything any way..... Victims to embracing the logic that says when "principles" are in conflict with the desired "end-result" well we can just throw out those principles and accept that concepts like morality and ethics and curious other anomalies that impede our enlightened thinking can be ignored when they get in the way.....

But let's make all of our perceptions about what's "right" and what's "wrong" conditional and situational and leave the final decision about how we ought to regard our lives and our futures and our responsibilities to everyone around us.....up to someone else.....

I'm a "victim" to a mortgage company....I'm a victim to political machinations.....I'm a victim to popular opinion....I'm a victim to my appetites and the conditioned attitude of consumption without consequence....I'm a victim to modern science....I'm a victim of identy theft....I'm a victim of George Bush.....I'm a victim of Stephen Harper.....

Yes let's all celebrate the idea that when every choice and every scruple is finally invested with the anonymous "they" and the slippery "them"....and ADD and ADHD and so many other alphabet-soup syndromes and "explanations" satisfy our sense that we are after all victims to life and everything in life.....well then we can simply surrender to the wisdom and whims of all the other victims that are more than willing to make all our decisions for us.....
 

Praxius

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Just like the blood transfusion incident out west with the mormons, this is no different.... the only difference is that these parents actually tried it the government's way the first time with the treatments and it failed.... they have decided they no longer want to put their child through that, and they should have that damn right to choose, not the government.

Who gets their ass sued when the government forces this child through these treatments again and they die due to them? Not only did the child die anyways, but the government put this additional stress on the child and the family which wasn't needed when the child is going to die anyways. Now he might be stuck inside a hospital for the remainder of his life, rather then enjoying what he could surrounded by family and going to other places for experiences before this happens.

At a hospital appointment for routine tests last Thursday, the Children's Aid Society of Hamilton took the boy, who cannot be identified under youth-protection laws, into its temporary custody. Chemotherapy treatment was then commenced.

His family can visit him only under the watchful eyes of CAS workers and security guards; his father was evicted from the hospital in handcuffs after reacting in anger when his son was seized.

What father wouldn't react this way? This isn't the first article on this case, and the day this occured they were interviewing the father and they told him they were wanting him to come into the hospital with the child for a checkup and when they arrived, they told him they were taking the child into custody to perform another run of this crap without the parent's approval and then he go upset.

A judge earlier ruled the boy is not capable of understanding the implications of refusing chemotherapy.

No Sh*t Sherlock... that's why the decision falls on the parents.... the parent made their decision and yet again the government dictates to them how it's going to be. What a F**king farce.

"The best thing for him to do would ... be home with us so that if he did pass away, at least it would be home with us and we could take care of him and we could make sure that he's sent away the way he deserves to be, not poked and prodded and treated like a criminal," he said.

Family friend Belma Diamante, who hired Ms. Edwardh, said the boy's views have not been heard by the court and child welfare agency.

"Every institution and every individual, if they're claiming that we're making the best decision in [the boy's] interest, then naturally [he] has to be heard," said Ms. Diamante, who met the boy when she helped him realize his dream of dancing in The Nutcracker three years ago when she was president of the Canadian Ballet Youth Ensemble.

The boy, who has aboriginal ancestry, did one round of chemotherapy in February and then decided to stop aggressive treatments in favour of natural remedies, including chelation therapy, vitamins, oregano and green tea.

Chemotherapy makes him extremely ill and causes effects such as vomiting, bloating, pain in his spine and difficulty walking.

"He told us that he didn't want to undergo any more treatment because he felt that it wasn't going to give him quality of life, that he felt that it would probably take away his life," his father explained.

"He would rather just go traditional and natural and take it for as long as it would take him so that he could be with his friends and so that he could be at home with his family and play with his sister and just try to have fun and live as long as he could live."

But we'll never know if these are his true wishes, because nobody will officially listen to the child, and the government is covering up his name to "protect him" because he is a minor.... but he hasn't commited any crimes! They're trying to do everything they can to PR spin this in their favor and make the father sound like a moron, which he isnt'. This report is skewed a bit from the original I read.

The boy also has fetal alcohol syndrome and is mildly intellectually delayed, his father said.

He also has serious behavioural problems, for which he takes medication. His mother died of a brain tumour when he was 4.

So maybe the family just had their limit for the amount of suffering they can go through in one lifetime... yet here's the government to add some more on top of what they've already been going though.

I guess you really have no controll over your life.
 

Nuggler

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Sure Nugg ....

Let's continue to give judges and the "state" control over our lives..... We'll permit the judge and the state to make all our decisions for us....a prudent decision no doubt.....""""

Guess I didn't explain myself well enough this time, Mikey. The kid perhaps is unable to verbally express his objections to the procedure, the process would be worse than arduous, he's been there before, and it worked, but no one wants it now, so spend the treatment money where it will actually do some good. No chemo..............sabby?

Same applys when one is terminally ill. Don't actively kill them, just provide relief from pain (they won't), and don't prolong suffering....(they will). That's the state's position, not mine. I don't agree with it. Use heroin and lots of it.

:cool:
 

tracy

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I can't believe people would compare the decision making related to medical care of children to the medical care of adults. The government isn't stepping in to control adults. Your freedoms have not been diminished in that area.

Children are a different matter. The government has an obligation to protect children from abuse and neglect. Neglect by definition includes denying proper medical care to a sick child. This isn't new and I don't think most people disagree with the principle entirely. Most people agree with the simpler issue of forcing blood transfusions on JW children to avoid death, but for some reason chemo with an 80% success rate is seen differently. That's fair enough, but let's not pretend that forcing parents to get their children necessary medical treatment so new or outrageous.
 

Praxius

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I can't believe people would compare the decision making related to medical care of children to the medical care of adults. The government isn't stepping in to control adults. Your freedoms have not been diminished in that area.

Children are a different matter. The government has an obligation to protect children from abuse and neglect. Neglect by definition includes denying proper medical care to a sick child. This isn't new and I don't think most people disagree with the principle entirely. Most people agree with the simpler issue of forcing blood transfusions on JW children to avoid death, but for some reason chemo with an 80% success rate is seen differently. That's fair enough, but let's not pretend that forcing parents to get their children necessary medical treatment so new or outrageous.

The parents are the deciders of what is the best interest of their children, no one else. Abuse and neglect are not even a case here. The father already threw his child into this whole thing as the doctors requested and it failed as the cancer came back shortly after.

The father wasn't refusing medical treatment for his son, he was wanted to attempt alternative methods of medical treatment as described above.... the government now won't let them seek alternative methods and forced his son to go through the same damn thing that didn't work before.

And sorry, but 80% isn't 100% now is it, therefore it's about as sucessful as anything else they might have attempted to try..... oh.... and it FAILED the 1st time, so I guess that 80% was actually 0% for this child.... so why put him through it again?
 

Praxius

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Update:

Forced chemo treatment of child 'heavy-handed' decision: bioethicists
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/05/13/cas-chemo.html

A Hamilton family will be in court Tuesday, fighting to regain custody of their sick 11-year-old boy, who himself is fighting doctors' orders for more chemotherapy.

Now in the care of the Children's Aid Society, the boy has been thrust into the thorny debate over the right to ignore conventional wisdom and seek alternative therapies.

He was diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia at age seven, had chemo and went into remission.

But the cancer returned earlier this year, and further chemo has taken most of his hair, left him with skin rashes and mouth sores, and he's unable to walk on his own.

After being told last week he needed more chemo or he would face death within six months, the boy refused.

His family supported his decision, but doctors insisted he go through the therapy.

A judge ruled the boy cannot make an informed decision and ordered him into CAS care to ensure he gets the treatment, which began last week.

Another round is scheduled for Tuesday, the day his father and stepmother go to court to bring their son back home.
Legal decision 'worrisome,' bioethicists say

Bioethicists call the decision to force chemo on him "heavy-handed" and "worrisome."

On Monday, some bioethicists said they were concerned about the decision and worried that other parents' wishes might be superseded by health-care practitioners who assume they know best.

"If a doctor says [therapy] is in your best interest and you say you don't want it, within our laws, ethically and legally, that's fully acceptable," said Kerry Bowman of the University of Toronto's Joint Centre for Bioethics.

"And in this case that's kind of turned upside down. Best interests have taken over as opposed to what the family believes, and I think there's a lot of ethical tension here, and I think it's pretty worrisome."

There may be factors in the case that haven't been publicized and that could have influenced the decision to ignore the boy's wishes, but Bowman said he was a bit surprised by the decision.

"It looks very heavy-handed to me and it's got a lot of implications, because we have lots of children throughout the country in institutions and parents often have a different view of what treatment should be than physicians do," he said.

"You have a medical system that says, 'This is how we treat this illness, whether you like it or not.'"
Case not unusual, ethicist says

The Hamilton case is not particularly rare or unusual and is "the kind of thing that we struggle with in health care all the time," said Brendan Leier, a clinical ethicist with the University of Alberta and the Stollery Children's Hospital in Edmonton.

"I know for a fact there are many more cases like this one that you don't see widely publicized," Leier said.

Although officials had decided the boy wasn't capable of making his own decisions and that his parents were essentially making the wrong choice for their son, the patient was arguably the best equipped to predict how chemotherapy would affect his body given that he'd been through it before, Leier said.

"This kid is now an expert on what going through chemo entails and this is where it becomes, for me, ethically problematic," he said.

"This kid knows better than anyone else how this is affecting his life, so who is a doctor or a judge to say that this is really in his best interests?"

Although it's a complicating factor that the boy has fetal alcohol syndrome and takes special education classes, Leier said the boy is still capable of understanding what more chemotherapy would do to him.

"He understands what it feels like to have chemo, he understands what it is to go through that and have all the ill-health effects, and it's very difficult to argue that any more intellectual capacity would enhance his judgment," he said.
Children should be involved in decisions: ethicist

A handful of similar cases play out every year at Toronto's Hospital for Sick Children although they usually end with a negotiated solution that everyone can live with, said Christine Harrison, director of the hospital's bioethics department.

Harrison said she believes that children should be fully involved with the decision process and their opinions and feelings need to be heard, even if they don't get the final say in their care.

"It's respectful of them as a person. They're the one who's having the treatment imposed on them, and certainly it's important that all people who are capable of having a voice have a voice," she said.

Leier said there's a danger in forcing treatment on a patient and whether it actually ends up helping or making their plight worse.

"Is it medically efficacious to treat someone against their will, and what role does the will play in actually treating yourself and actually healing yourself — think that's a very interesting question."

By all means, figure out how to debate that.
 

Praxius

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Additional Update:

Boy who was given forced chemo could be home soon
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...13/Parental_rights_090513/20080513?hub=Canada

HAMILTON -- The father of the 11-year-old Hamilton boy who was given chemotherapy against his wishes says he's confident that he'll soon be reunited with his son.

The father, who cannot be named because the boy was put in the care of the Children's Aid Society, says his son is despondent, run down and just wants to go home.

While the boy was once firm in his belief that more chemo wouldn't do him any good and alternative remedies would be worth trying, his father says he's now given up the fight.
The father lost custody to CAS after he told hospital officials his son wanted to stop the chemotherapy treatments, which contradicted doctors' advice.

The boy has since had more chemo and isn't expected to leave hospital until Thursday, at the very earliest.

The boy's family and CAS will go to a Hamilton court today where a judge will decide who will get custody upon the boy's release.

The boy feels like a prisoner in his hospital room -- surrounded by security guards and CAS and youth protection workers -- and just wants to go home to be with his family again, the father said.

"He's a little prisoner, he can't leave his room or anything, he can't visit with any other sick children, he can't go anywhere because he's under house arrest,'' he said.

"He's a criminal for having cancer.''

The boy's family is worried that he's given up hope and will only get more sick if he gives up fighting.

"We told him, 'Don't worry buddy, please try to be healthy, relax, relax, relax, relax,' and he even said to me, 'I don't care. They can even kill me with their chemo and stuff I don't care, as long as I can come home and be home with you and mommy,'' he recalled.

"You know what that feels like to hear your son say that?''

The father said that even if his son is allowed to return home it won't be a completely happy reunion, since he'll still be weak from his chemotherapy and life won't be back to normal.

"But I can start sitting with him and playing his hand drum with him and singing his songs with him that he's written and helping him write his stories again, because he loves to write stories,'' the father said.

The boy hopes to finish writing a story called Walking in Faith before he gets too sick so he can share his story with other sick kids.

"It's all about his cancer journey that he's had because he wants other families and other children to know what he's been going through and how his faith has taken him this far and hopefully it'll help other families,'' he said.

"At least he'll know that his voice got out and maybe it'll help some other family have courage and faith to fight and go on and go on.''

The boy was diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia when he was seven. After enduring his first tough experiences with chemotherapy his cancer went into remission, but returned earlier this year.

He was told last week that he needed more chemo but he refused to go through the ordeal again. He took that position even though doctors said he'd have only six months to live without the therapy, while treatment would give him a 50 per cent of fighting off the cancer.

Sounds smarter then most kids if you ask me.
 

MikeyDB

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All these fine folk here at CC that blather on about how responsbility needs to be taken away in the name of "protecting" children...etc.

This is in the same forum as an article describing how a man has been sent to jail becuase his child didn't get her GED!

In the same forum we learn that our government knew that the U.S. put a half-million dollar bounty on a Canadian juvenile....

Gebus you people are nuts!
 

Nuggler

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All these fine folk here at CC that blather on about how responsbility needs to be taken away in the name of "protecting" children...etc.

This is in the same forum as an article describing how a man has been sent to jail becuase his child didn't get her GED!

In the same forum we learn that our government knew that the U.S. put a half-million dollar bounty on a Canadian juvenile....

Gebus you people are nuts!

No one here did the deeds, Mikey; just posted the threads. Forums are for what?

But, yah, nuts, I qualify for sure. In some decent company too.

8O
 

tracy

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The parents are the deciders of what is the best interest of their children, no one else. Abuse and neglect are not even a case here. The father already threw his child into this whole thing as the doctors requested and it failed as the cancer came back shortly after.

The father wasn't refusing medical treatment for his son, he was wanted to attempt alternative methods of medical treatment as described above.... the government now won't let them seek alternative methods and forced his son to go through the same damn thing that didn't work before.

And sorry, but 80% isn't 100% now is it, therefore it's about as sucessful as anything else they might have attempted to try..... oh.... and it FAILED the 1st time, so I guess that 80% was actually 0% for this child.... so why put him through it again?

Parents are not always the deciders of what's in the best interest of their children. People who believe that are uninformed or naive at the very least. It assumes that parents' motives are always good and that their rights to be decision makers are unlimited even if their decisions are harmful to their children. That's simply not the law.

I've participated in the care of kids that was against the wishes of their parents with a court order before. It isn't exactly frequent, but it's not entirely uncommon. The area I work in has patients who usually wind up needing transfusions and our JW families are against that in general so we have to get court orders. These are families who love their children and want what's best for them, but the court feels denying them needed medical care is neglectful and will step in. I've worked with a fair number of families who have lost custody of their children altogether for neglect, abuse, etc. The courts have always had the right to step in and make medical decisions when they believe the parents are not acting in the best interest of the child.

The argument that alternative treatment for his cancer has the same chance of success is silly. A court decided 80% chance was better than 0% for an 11 year old. You may disagree with that decision, but do you really disagree with the principle in general? If the treatment had a 99% success rate, would it be ok then? Who gets to set the threshold?
 
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Praxius

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Parents are not always the deciders of what's in the best interest of their children.

If they're inbred retards, I would agree with you, but as already pointed out, the parent(s) already went with the doctor's suggestions and they screwed it up and their suggestion failed... they had their chance to show their better knowlege and failed.

People who believe that are uninformed or naive at the very least.

Similar to people who like to generalize every situation with the same red pen.

It assumes that parents' motives are always good and that their rights to be decision makers are unlimited even if their decisions are harmful to their children. That's simply not the law.

As we've seen, the law sucks bones in certain situations and proper human understanding of the situation is required for each. Perhaps you can make a better argument by addressing the new updates from similar experts above as the "experts" who took the children away. Apparenlty this situation isn't justified by all professionals.

I've participated in the care of kids that was against the wishes of their parents with a court order before. It isn't exactly frequent, but it's not entirely uncommon. The area I work in has patients who usually wind up needing transfusions and our JW families are against that in general so we have to get court orders. These are families who love their children and want what's best for them, but the court feels denying them needed medical care is neglectful and will step in.

That doesn't make it right, and regardless, blood transfers are not chemo.... and the child who already went through this and has already went through suffering because of it, and who is no better off because of it, is the one who has to face these ignorant decisions (Where it's decided by people who don't have to go through it) ~ What they are putting the child through is torture and was against his wishes and the family's wishes.

When does one suffering overide another suffering? I have had my own experiences with family members ending up suffering more for longer then natural because of so-called "Experts" and I know what this does to families..... the final decision should be left to the family, regardless of your own personal beliefs.

I've worked with a fair number of families who have lost custody of their children altogether for neglect, abuse, etc. The courts have always had the right to step in and make medical decisions when they believe the parents are not acting in the best interest of the child.

That still doesn't make it right, it only shows how much this occurs.

The argument that alternative treatment for his cancer has the same chance of success is silly.

Really? Since the first Chemo session didn't work? Sure.... it's better all right.

A court decided 80% chance was better than 0% for an 11 year old.

And the courts decided the alternative treatments would be a 0%? That's just ignorant if you ask me.

You may disagree with that decision, but do you really disagree with the principle in general?

With all in what and who I am, yes.

If the treatment had a 99% success rate, would it be ok then? Who gets to set the threshold?

The parents.

And once again, this case isn't a case of some "ignorant in-bred retard parents" who didn't even give the suggested treatments a chance.... they gave it a chance, the child gave it a chance, it failed, the child chose to not go through it again, the parents didn't want him to go through it again.... that should have been the end of it, not to allow the doctors to play their torture games on the kid again....

Once again from what the child said:

.... he even said to me, 'I don't care. They can even kill me with their chemo and stuff I don't care, as long as I can come home and be home with you and mommy,'' he recalled.

The child is well aware of what the treatment entails, and he knows what death is.... I knew what death was when I was 4 years old. I was contemplating suicide in grades 5-6. To some that would be a young age for a child to know or think of that stuff.... but children do, and children can make those decisions if they choose to... they are human, like you and I, and although their life experience may not be as vast as your's or my own, that doesn't take away their ability to understand the situations presented to them. It all boils down to their education and what their parents allow them to know and understand.
 

MikeyDB

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Nugg

My point is that if you survey the feedback from people at Canadian Content the only conclusion you can reasonably reach is that people still have "faith"...."believe-in" governments that have demonstrably failed them time and time again! Some want government to be Big Brother and make every decision....use our court system to punish parents for not ensuring that their kids get their highschool diplomas....but hold the line at permitting parents to decide on whether their children ought or ought-not continue chemo-therapy.....

These people rail against the obvious stupidity of a government that was entirely complicit in having Mahar Arar kidnapped and sent off to be tortured by the American GESTAPO... and embrace that it makes sense for Canadians to stand by and do nothing while the United States of Rampant Parnoia pays the home of the Taliban and the recruiting center of Al Qeada half a million to put the grab on a fifteen year old kid..!

If there was ever a clearer indication that Canadians are in capable of conceptualizing and appreciating the obvious inadequacy and rampant failure of Canadian government and our social "institutions".....it would be difficult to imagine!

I want LESS government and MORE freedom to make up my own mind about what happens in my life and making my own choices about how I manage that existence while it seems obvious that a great many Canadians don't have the mental wherewithal to recognize how screwed they are ..... by a system that plays loose and free with morality and concepts of justice....that panders to the terrorist nation of America and demonstrates time and time again that there is no leadership and little integrity of any kind when it comes to Canada's government!

We're screwed because it seems from these threads and the feedback swirling around that Canadians have lost the facility to think!
 

Praxius

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Stupid Rep thing won't let me give you any on this post *shrugs*

Oh well.... still ligit and makes sense. I don't see how we can allow the government to take over everything we do in some aspects and then expect them to give us choices when we want..... you give an inch, they'll take a mile.... give them a mile, they'll take the country.... and they already have.

There's a big difference between some redneck parent not letting doctors take that pick axe out of their child's skull because they think their spirit will fly out, and a parent not allowing doctors to put their child through more suffering in a treatment which isn't a guarantee success and has already failed once before.

^ Once again, the doctor's expert opinions already failed, therefore the parent's choices and decisions should be priority #2 - The Child's Priority #1.
 

tracy

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If they're inbred retards, I would agree with you, but as already pointed out, the parent(s) already went with the doctor's suggestions and they screwed it up and their suggestion failed... they had their chance to show their better knowlege and failed.

The treatment hasn't "failed" because remission didn't last forever. Success is defined by being alive in 5 years time. He was in remission for 4 years. He is still alive and stands a pretty good chance of staying alive. If he doesn't, then treatment has failed.

As we've seen, the law sucks bones in certain situations and proper human understanding of the situation is required for each. Perhaps you can make a better argument by addressing the new updates from similar experts above as the "experts" who took the children away. Apparenlty this situation isn't justified by all professionals.

Those professionals have problems with it, but I don't see any of them outright saying it absolutely shouldn't happen in this case or in general. Believe it or not, I have ethical concerns with this kind of thing also. Acknowledging that doesn't mean I necessarily think it's wrong. I don't know enough about this particular case to say one way or the other (neither does anyone on this forum).

Health care ethicists are all over the map on some issues and in the real world I don't have too much time for their opinions because they are toothless tigers. More often than not in my line of work we will do things that 99% of us consider unethical if the parents want it. I've seen ethics committees make rulings time and again, but we ignore them if the parents don't want to do what the ethics committee says. That's why I put more stock in the courts. They will sometimes rule in favor of the parents and sometimes in favor of the doctors and whatever they rule has to be respected.


When does one suffering overide another suffering? I have had my own experiences with family members ending up suffering more for longer then natural because of so-called "Experts" and I know what this does to families..... the final decision should be left to the family, regardless of your own personal beliefs.

That's what you don't understand: This isn't about MY personal beliefs. It isn't even about yours. The law sets a standard for the medical care of children. That's what has to be followed.

My personal beliefs are probably a lot different than what you'd think. By far, the worst days I've had at work are when I have to look after a baby when we should just let him or her die but the parents won't let go. It's the opposite problem of this case. Their chance of survival is slim to none, their chance of surviving intact is zero and all the treatments we have to do to keep them alive for a few more days cause them pain. The parents are in complete denial and really don't have much insight into what their choices will mean for their future and for their child. I feel like I've tortured those babies. I won't go into the really grim specifics, but suffice it to say, it gets sickening. You know why I do it though? Because it isn't about MY personal beliefs. The law says the parents in that case are the ultimate decision makers. Almost all the ethical experts would agree we are causing those babies needless suffering, but we respect the parents wishes.


Once again from what the child said:

.... he even said to me, 'I don't care. They can even kill me with their chemo and stuff I don't care, as long as I can come home and be home with you and mommy,'' he recalled.

The child is well aware of what the treatment entails, and he knows what death is.... I knew what death was when I was 4 years old. I was contemplating suicide in grades 5-6. To some that would be a young age for a child to know or think of that stuff.... but children do, and children can make those decisions if they choose to... they are human, like you and I, and although their life experience may not be as vast as your's or my own, that doesn't take away their ability to understand the situations presented to them. It all boils down to their education and what their parents allow them to know and understand.

First, when you say even the child said, it's really what the dad said the child said. To be frank, you and I don't know that the dad isn't an idiot. He may be a rational man who wants this because he thinks it's best for his child. He may be a controlling dickhead out of touch with reality who has no concern for anything but regaining control. I don't know. The courts got to decide on that question.

I that you're generalizing a bit. Not all 11 year olds will have the insight you did, especially one with FAS. Courts can emancipate minors if they feel they have the insight required to make those decisions. This court didn't. I don't understand people who say that children should be able to make their own decisions all the time. We don't let them vote, we don't let them drive, we don't let them drink, we don't let them drop out of school at a young age, we don't let them enter into contracts.... but when it comes to complex medical decisions, then they should be able to do what they want. There's no logic there.
 
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tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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California
We're screwed because it seems from these threads and the feedback swirling around that Canadians have lost the facility to think!

Not thinking exactly like you does't mean we're not thinking at all. It's entirely possible for a reasonable person to believe the government can get it right in some cases and wrong in others.