November 21st, 2007, 08:49 AM
Man hit with Taser, batons, pepper spray
Fraser Valley man ‘in extremely critical condition’
By DIRK MEISSNER The Canadian Press
Wed. Nov 21 - 6:34 AM
VICTORIA — A Fraser Valley man who RCMP sprayed, zapped and whacked in a violent confrontation is in extremely critical condition in hospital, a senior Mountie said Tuesday.
Police used pepper spray, a Taser stun gun and their batons on the Chilliwack, B.C., resident who reportedly was acting erratically in a Chilliwack rental store on Monday.
Assistant RCMP Commissioner Peter German said the 36-year-old man was extremely agitated, aggressive and combative with the two RCMP officers who responded.
They called for backup when neither the pepper spray nor Taser nor batons succeeded in subduing him, they said.
Several Mounties responded — German couldn’t say how many — and the man was taken into custody. Conscious and still vocal, he was taken to hospital.
"The male involved in this incident is still in Chilliwack General Hospital and his condition has changed through the evening and overnight hours," said German in a statement at Victoria RCMP headquarters. "He is currently in extremely critical condition in the intensive care unit.
"He did sustain lacerations to the head area in his struggle with police, however, the exact reason for his condition is not known at this time."
German said the RCMP called the news conference in order to get information about the arrest to the public as quickly as possible, especially since a Taser was involved.
The Mounties are currently in the middle of a major uproar over use of a Taser on a newly arrived Polish immigrant who died minutes later at Vancouver International Airport last month.
Besides police, coroner and border services investigations, the B.C. government has launched an inquiry into the airport incident and into rules governing use of Tasers by police in the province.
German said because the police use of force could be a factor in the man’s injuries, the RCMP’s E Division, which covers British Columbia, has launched an independent review of the Chilliwack incident.
Gary Bass, the deputy commissioner of E Division, said Tuesday that RCMP would consider a moratorium on Taser use if someone came up with scientific evidence to say they weren’t safe.
RCMP major crime and homicide investigators, the police department in nearby Abbotsford, Vancouver Island RCMP major crime officers and two members of the Victoria Police Department will participate in the review, he said.
The RCMP has contacted the man’s family, who requested his name not be made public, German said.
Man hit with Taser, batons, pepper spray
Fraser Valley man ‘in extremely critical condition’
By DIRK MEISSNER The Canadian Press
Wed. Nov 21 - 6:34 AM
VICTORIA — A Fraser Valley man who RCMP sprayed, zapped and whacked in a violent confrontation is in extremely critical condition in hospital, a senior Mountie said Tuesday.
Police used pepper spray, a Taser stun gun and their batons on the Chilliwack, B.C., resident who reportedly was acting erratically in a Chilliwack rental store on Monday.
Assistant RCMP Commissioner Peter German said the 36-year-old man was extremely agitated, aggressive and combative with the two RCMP officers who responded.
They called for backup when neither the pepper spray nor Taser nor batons succeeded in subduing him, they said.
Several Mounties responded — German couldn’t say how many — and the man was taken into custody. Conscious and still vocal, he was taken to hospital.
"The male involved in this incident is still in Chilliwack General Hospital and his condition has changed through the evening and overnight hours," said German in a statement at Victoria RCMP headquarters. "He is currently in extremely critical condition in the intensive care unit.
"He did sustain lacerations to the head area in his struggle with police, however, the exact reason for his condition is not known at this time."
German said the RCMP called the news conference in order to get information about the arrest to the public as quickly as possible, especially since a Taser was involved.
The Mounties are currently in the middle of a major uproar over use of a Taser on a newly arrived Polish immigrant who died minutes later at Vancouver International Airport last month.
Besides police, coroner and border services investigations, the B.C. government has launched an inquiry into the airport incident and into rules governing use of Tasers by police in the province.
German said because the police use of force could be a factor in the man’s injuries, the RCMP’s E Division, which covers British Columbia, has launched an independent review of the Chilliwack incident.
Gary Bass, the deputy commissioner of E Division, said Tuesday that RCMP would consider a moratorium on Taser use if someone came up with scientific evidence to say they weren’t safe.
RCMP major crime and homicide investigators, the police department in nearby Abbotsford, Vancouver Island RCMP major crime officers and two members of the Victoria Police Department will participate in the review, he said.
The RCMP has contacted the man’s family, who requested his name not be made public, German said.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,369 
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 21st, 2007, 09:05 AM
Ever noticed how the scripts are always the same: He was extremely combative or he behaved in a threatening manner. What happened to the part about empathetic negotiation and a bit of patience? Yeah, they have a lousy job in dangerous circumstances ... and they also have huge advantages in time and tools. Why so fast?
Woof!
Ever noticed how the scripts are always the same: He was extremely combative or he behaved in a threatening manner. What happened to the part about empathetic negotiation and a bit of patience? Yeah, they have a lousy job in dangerous circumstances ... and they also have huge advantages in time and tools. Why so fast?
Woof!
World Police
Posts: 4,602
Videos: 1
Videos: 1
November 21st, 2007, 09:18 AM
They needed to use Pepper Spray, batons and a Taser to subdue a single man? I find that very hard to believe. I think some cops view pepper spray and tasers as compliance tools opposed to alternatives to lethal force.
They needed to use Pepper Spray, batons and a Taser to subdue a single man? I find that very hard to believe. I think some cops view pepper spray and tasers as compliance tools opposed to alternatives to lethal force.
November 21st, 2007, 09:30 AM
They had to actually call in back up after the taser and pepper spray.
The fact that the guy didn't go down after tasers and pepper spray, and left "conscious and vocal" once they all jumped and beat him down with batons... to me that screams that something's up besides overzealous cops, no?
They had to actually call in back up after the taser and pepper spray.
The fact that the guy didn't go down after tasers and pepper spray, and left "conscious and vocal" once they all jumped and beat him down with batons... to me that screams that something's up besides overzealous cops, no?
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,369
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 21st, 2007, 09:30 AM
Woof!
Quoting DurkaDurka
...and it sure beats talking. "Goon squad" tactics by a few paint targets on all cops.
They needed to use Pepper Spray, batons and a Taser to subdue a single man? I find that very hard to believe. I think some cops view pepper spray and tasers as compliance tools opposed to alternatives to lethal force.
Woof!
World Police
Posts: 4,602
Videos: 1
Videos: 1
November 21st, 2007, 09:38 AM
Quoting karrie
If you are to believe to what the cops say. Cops are afraid to get their "handy dirty" these days it seems, why bother physically restraining the suspect when you can taser and spray him from a distance and then apply the cuffs? Cops have become to reliant on their toys, back to basics I say.
They had to actually call in back up after the taser and pepper spray.
The fact that the guy didn't go down after tasers and pepper spray, and left "conscious and vocal" once they all jumped and beat him down with batons... to me that screams that something's up besides overzealous cops, no?
The fact that the guy didn't go down after tasers and pepper spray, and left "conscious and vocal" once they all jumped and beat him down with batons... to me that screams that something's up besides overzealous cops, no?
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
November 21st, 2007, 09:44 AM
The real question is whether the handcuffs were on him or not when the pepper spray and tasers came out. I don't know about the rest of you, but for me, handcuffs mean subdued. If the person is squirming so much that they can't get him into that confined space they call the back seat of the police cruiser, they should do the same thing that responsible parents do: wait until the temper tantrum dies down.
Applying tremendous pain as a form of compliance is just lazy. And when they scream, writhe and gasp for air after you electrocute them, beat them with clubs or spray chemical weapons into their face, and because of this you can't get them into the patrol car do you electrocute them, club them, or apply another dosage of pain inducing chemical again? Is the point of police custody really, come meekly or be beaten into unconsciousness?
Finally, does anyone but me see the conflict of interest in the police investigating this?
The real question is whether the handcuffs were on him or not when the pepper spray and tasers came out. I don't know about the rest of you, but for me, handcuffs mean subdued. If the person is squirming so much that they can't get him into that confined space they call the back seat of the police cruiser, they should do the same thing that responsible parents do: wait until the temper tantrum dies down.
Applying tremendous pain as a form of compliance is just lazy. And when they scream, writhe and gasp for air after you electrocute them, beat them with clubs or spray chemical weapons into their face, and because of this you can't get them into the patrol car do you electrocute them, club them, or apply another dosage of pain inducing chemical again? Is the point of police custody really, come meekly or be beaten into unconsciousness?
Finally, does anyone but me see the conflict of interest in the police investigating this?
World Police
Posts: 4,602
Videos: 1
Videos: 1
November 21st, 2007, 09:50 AM
Quoting Niflmir
I don't really see a conflict of interest in the OPP investigating the RCMP actions, this routinely happens with OPP investigating municipal forces, RCMP investigates OPP etc etc.
Finally, does anyone but me see the conflict of interest in the police investigating this?
November 21st, 2007, 09:55 AM
Who stands with the most to lose with the current attitude toward police action? As lone wolf says, the few bad cops paint targets on all the rest. It's in their best interest to ensure their men and women are following protocol and not abusing their power. Who is best qualified to review the work of employees? An outside who doesn't understand the job? Or a trained professional in the field?
Quoting Niflmir
Finally, does anyone but me see the conflict of interest in the police investigating this?
I don't personally. Finally, does anyone but me see the conflict of interest in the police investigating this?
Who stands with the most to lose with the current attitude toward police action? As lone wolf says, the few bad cops paint targets on all the rest. It's in their best interest to ensure their men and women are following protocol and not abusing their power. Who is best qualified to review the work of employees? An outside who doesn't understand the job? Or a trained professional in the field?
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
November 21st, 2007, 09:59 AM
Quoting DurkaDurka
I don't know, I guess I just doubt how independent these organizations really are.
I don't really see a conflict of interest in the OPP investigating the RCMP actions, this routinely happens with OPP investigating municipal forces, RCMP investigates OPP etc etc.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,838
Location: Independent Palestine
Location: Independent Palestine
November 21st, 2007, 10:06 AM
It means the man was on some kind of drug. therefore a drug addict. If you look at Youtube and put in Knife Attack on Security Officer you are taken to a video of a person attacking a Thai SO with a knife and not going down until he is hit with stool, and metal mop repeatedly. Same thing here, probably.
It means the man was on some kind of drug. therefore a drug addict. If you look at Youtube and put in Knife Attack on Security Officer you are taken to a video of a person attacking a Thai SO with a knife and not going down until he is hit with stool, and metal mop repeatedly. Same thing here, probably.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
November 21st, 2007, 10:13 AM
Certainly, if there was a breach of conduct and this was reported to the public it would raise the level of trust in their ability to conduct impartial investigations. But on the flip side, it would necessarily decrease public confidence in both the police and the RCMP, regardless of which organization's member committed the breach. Whenever you met a peace officer, one would wonder if they were one of the good ones, or one of the bad ones.
Thus in finding that a breach of conduct occurred, the investigators will always be lowering public trust of individual officers, something that they have an interest to protect. It is always important that the investigator have absolutely no interest in the outcome of the investigation, it would be a conflict of interest for an officer to investigate the murder of a family member just as much, or to investigate an incident where a family member is the suspect.
Certainly we need professionals, but independent professionals.
Quoting karrie
But that's just it, from what I have read there isn't really a comprehensive policy on taser use or pepper spray use at this time. It is framed as an alternative to firearms, but it is routinely used in situations where a firearm use would never be authorised.
I don't personally.
Who stands with the most to lose with the current attitude toward police action? As lone wolf says, the few bad cops paint targets on all the rest. It's in their best interest to ensure their men and women are following protocol and not abusing their power. Who is best qualified to review the work of employees? An outside who doesn't understand the job? Or a trained professional in the field?
Who stands with the most to lose with the current attitude toward police action? As lone wolf says, the few bad cops paint targets on all the rest. It's in their best interest to ensure their men and women are following protocol and not abusing their power. Who is best qualified to review the work of employees? An outside who doesn't understand the job? Or a trained professional in the field?
Certainly, if there was a breach of conduct and this was reported to the public it would raise the level of trust in their ability to conduct impartial investigations. But on the flip side, it would necessarily decrease public confidence in both the police and the RCMP, regardless of which organization's member committed the breach. Whenever you met a peace officer, one would wonder if they were one of the good ones, or one of the bad ones.
Thus in finding that a breach of conduct occurred, the investigators will always be lowering public trust of individual officers, something that they have an interest to protect. It is always important that the investigator have absolutely no interest in the outcome of the investigation, it would be a conflict of interest for an officer to investigate the murder of a family member just as much, or to investigate an incident where a family member is the suspect.
Certainly we need professionals, but independent professionals.
World Police
Posts: 4,602
Videos: 1
Videos: 1
November 21st, 2007, 10:27 AM
Quoting Jersay
Being on a "kind of drug" does not make someone a drug addict, many people have all sorts of strange reactions from legal drugs. Secondly, unless you have some inside knowledge on what happened in this case, claiming he was high is poor estimate at best. I suppose the Polish guy at the airport was a drug addict as well?
It means the man was on some kind of drug. therefore a drug addict. If you look at Youtube and put in Knife Attack on Security Officer you are taken to a video of a person attacking a Thai SO with a knife and not going down until he is hit with stool, and metal mop repeatedly. Same thing here, probably.
November 21st, 2007, 10:30 AM
Quoting DurkaDurka
My guess would have actually been a blood clot in his brain. they can start some drastic mood shifts before they get to the serious point it sounds like it might have hit in the hospital.
Being on a "kind of drug" does not make someone a drug addict, many people have all sorts of strange reactions from legal drugs. Secondly, unless you have some inside knowledge on what happened in this case, claiming he was high is poor estimate at best. I suppose the Polish guy at the airport was a drug addict as well?
